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In the day you eat of it, you will certainly die

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Farlsborough:
Hmm, that seems unconvincing Riddles. I do understand where you're coming from, but I just don't think that we can take those verses from Psalms and 2 Peter and use them to mean that God literally meant 1000 years when he said "day". This feels like the sort of mechanistic literalism of the folk who try to shoehorn, redefine, stretch etc. to argue for young earth creation. Or in fact, more like those who try to mathematise the various obscure OT prophecies and come up with the date for Armageddon.

I don't mean to be disparaging and you could well be right! But a day is "like" a thousand years. It's a simile. God doesn't experience time as we do, He is outside of/in control of time. Does this mean that every time a day is mentioned we are to think "right - that means 1000 years"? Christ was in Hades for 3 days - is there something special we need to know about 3000 years?

My (very limited) understanding is that 1000 is used in scripture to mean "lots and lots", in the same way that we still do. "If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times!"

I'm not pretending to have the answers, I have no idea what this passage means. But I suspect it will have some spiritual dimension. Anyway, didn't Ray think that man was created mortal in the Garden anyway? And that we only put on immortality later in God's plan? So how is living to 930 years some kind of punishment - how long would he have lived had he not eaten the fruit? One thousand and one? Two thousand? Something much bigger than simply capping Adam's years at 1000 seems to be in play here, given that the rest of it is so symbolic.

Riddles:
Farlsborough, I don't believe in the young earth theory. My take might seem literal if we never could get a good handle on Adam's age at death, but we can, which fits with the other clues.  I see it as God dropping hints for us, not as "1 year always = 1,000 years" because the phrasing "as" makes it a similie. 

Though it's a similie, I think we're supposed to pick up on it because we know how long Adam lived - a bit short of a thousand years, or a "day".  We're not supposed to plug in that formula every time we see those numbers because it's a similie, but...coincidence?  Stretch?  Declaring that Adam died a spiritual death (as many at the pulpit do according to YouTube sermons available online material from various denomination) is I think, an assumption because it presupposes that Adam was created with an immortal soul.  Why create Adam perfect with an immortal soul, then he sins?  That sound like God changing His mind. Numbers 23:19 His creation is out of His control and He makes mistakes!  We know He doesn't. 

Why even use the word "day" if it's superfluous?  We get around this conundrum if the death in Gen 2 is physical, within 1,000 years specifically.  That's what this is about - I think we're supposed to find out the real nature of the death, which is hid from us at first.

If I'm not mistaken L. Ray wrote that Adam and Eve were not created with immortal souls which does accord with what I'm saying here; that the death spoken of by God in Gen 2 is physical corruption resulting in death, and not an ethereal "death". He says that Adam sinned because he was created mortal.  It was just a matter of time until he sinned, then the sand falls through the hourglass thus God's time frame though hidden. 

The significance of that word "day" in Gen. 2 points to what L. Ray writes below, which is at odds with anything I've read or heard taught in a church. That one word "day" undoes the second beast of Revelation, religion, and places our attentions back to God.  The second beast of Rev. 13:11  causes all to worship the first beast (ourselves), by claiming that we are created immortal, we have free will and FEW people question that.



[Ray Replies]

Dear Barb:

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray

 ???

Farlsborough:
Yes, but what I mean is - if they were not created immortal (I agree), they presumably expected to die at some point. Well, 930 years is pretty much the best innings any human has ever had! Perhaps slightly exceeded by others in the OT, I can't remember. But if someone told me "you'll die today" and I lived to 930 years, I'd feel pretty pleased with myself, and I certainly wouldn't expect that person to be there at my death bed saying "ha ha, I told you you'd die "today"! Neither would be thinking "darn, if only I hadn't eaten that fruit..." - I mean, 930 years of carnal life is actually too much! I think I would probably have preferred to die on that day (or some time in the near future) than live for nearly a thousand years of toil. If God had said, "on that day, you shall be given a thousand years of hard labour", it would make more sense!

Essentially I think it sounds like a bit of a "get-out", a way to make sense of something we don't really understand... I mean, when theoretically would Adam have died, had he not eaten the fruit? He's not immortal.

Something that just occurred to me is this: imagine you give a child a lightweight, toy bike. It's nice, it works, but it's not very robust. Still, it's a gift, and it pleases them. You say to them, "don't go over the rough ground on your bike, because it will break, and I'm not buying you another!". Of course, you know the child will, out of natural curiosity and rebelliousness, go over the rough ground. But what they don't know is that, before they've even broken the bike (inevitably), you have bought them a bigger, stronger bike that will last and is perfectly capable of going over rough ground.

Their bike breaks, they cry, they scuff their knee. They suffer both physical pain and the loss of their original gift. But when the time is right, you show them the better bike you had for them all along. Their experience on the little bike means that they truly value the strong bike. Despite the fact they think they were rebelling against you in going on the rough ground, they were perfectly fulfilling your plan which, in love, was for them to have and to appreciate the sturdy bike.

Perhaps Adam's death is the breaking of that toy bike? Was he already defiant, or carnal? Yes. Was that inevitably going to lead to "death"? Yes.

Ray's reply is profound. Adam's "death" codified the consequence of his carnality, in the same way that the Israelites could steal before they received the law forbidding theft. They were being carnal alright, but they weren't breaking a law because it hadn't been given to them. Afterwards if they steal, they invite punishment and consequence upon themselves, and it is given to them for them to understand this causal link between sin and death. Is any worse harm caused in the physical realm by murder before or after the law? Of course not - it's traumatic and saddening in both cases. But after the law, the murderer understands his actions lead to death, and that his carnality is responsible for his downfall.

Quite what Adam understood at the time - if you believe in a literal Adam, Eve and talking serpent - I don't know, but the record is kept for US to understand.

Riddles:
But we can understand it.  The very reason that the word "day" is placed there in many translations, and the very reason that Adam lived 930 or so years and we are told this, is for us to find out this false doctrine of an original immortal soul and our free will which, if understood, has so many implications.  It's not like "Oh well I guess we'll never know, best not think about it". 

Who cares that Adam had a good run?  That's not the matter. L. Ray wrote about Adam's mortal soul (the first other person I know about to mention it), and here I independently supply supporting scripture. 



It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.  Proverbs 25:2

Extol:
The verse should be translated to die you shall be dying.

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