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Author Topic: Guilty of All  (Read 1308 times)

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Farlsborough

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Guilty of All
« on: June 26, 2014, 05:35:34 PM »

Last week I listened to one of Ray's videos, "guilty of all". It was long awaited by me as I presume this is the follow-on from "repentance" that he talks about it.

However, I feel like I missed something  :-[ It felt like quite a lot of style but little substance, and being Ray, that makes me think I didn't get it.

Essentially he pointed out that it says we are guilty of all; not that we DID commit all sins, but are guilty. But why? I don't think that was explained. I can read that statement - you are guilty of all - but I struggle to relate it to my life or to reality, i.e. what way am I guilty. Am I guilty just because I'm a human? Given Ray's objection to eternal damnation on (one of the many) grounds that it is simply unfair, unjust, illogical etc, I can't believe that he'd stop at "you are guilty of all, because it says so." I was hoping to come to an understanding of why it is right that I be guilty of all sins.

I was listening after a nightshift so perhaps my brain wasn't working properly; I'll listen again, but in the meantime, any thoughts?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Guilty of All
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 06:57:50 PM »

Last week I listened to one of Ray's videos, "guilty of all". It was long awaited by me as I presume this is the follow-on from "repentance" that he talks about it.

However, I feel like I missed something  :-[ It felt like quite a lot of style but little substance, and being Ray, that makes me think I didn't get it.

Essentially he pointed out that it says we are guilty of all; not that we DID commit all sins, but are guilty. But why? I don't think that was explained. I can read that statement - you are guilty of all - but I struggle to relate it to my life or to reality, i.e. what way am I guilty. Am I guilty just because I'm a human? Given Ray's objection to eternal damnation on (one of the many) grounds that it is simply unfair, unjust, illogical etc, I can't believe that he'd stop at "you are guilty of all, because it says so." I was hoping to come to an understanding of why it is right that I be guilty of all sins.

I was listening after a nightshift so perhaps my brain wasn't working properly; I'll listen again, but in the meantime, any thoughts?

You are guilty of all because the only reason you havn't murdered a child or raped a little girl is due to God. There is no good in the flesh. Every perfect gift and good thing comes from the Father of lights above.

This also comes back to free will.

Had you been born into Hitler's world, had you been born to the same parents he was born to, and lived the life he did, you would have been hitler 2.0. There is nothing in you inherently that makes you better than hitler or saul. The only thing that seperates you from them is plan God has layed out for your life. You are powerless to live a different life than the one layed out before you as God has already declared the end from the beginning.

Yes, you are guilty because you are human. You are born carnal. The carnal mind is deep seated hatred towards God and cannot be subject to His laws. You are born flesh and blood and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

You are guilty of all but you have not committed again. It makes perfect sense.

Ray doesn't object to eternal damnation because its unfair, unjust and illogical (though it is), he objects to it because it is NOT SCRIPTURAL. Do you understand that? To ascribe to God the inner workings of the dark and wicked heart of evil men is blasphemy of the highest degree. Woe to those who call good evil. Woe indeed, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of The Living God.

Your inability to understand why you are guilty of all may stem from the fact that you do not understand the sovereignty of God and the condition of all creation. Perhaps you still think you are who you are because of some decision you made and not because of the power of God?

For the creature was subject to vanity (Moral futility) not by choice but by reason of HIM. Who hath subject the same in Hope. For the creation will be liberated from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children God.

In Christ,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Riddles

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Re: Guilty of All
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 08:53:56 PM »

Last week I listened to one of Ray's videos, "guilty of all". It was long awaited by me as I presume this is the follow-on from "repentance" that he talks about it.

However, I feel like I missed something  :-[ It felt like quite a lot of style but little substance, and being Ray, that makes me think I didn't get it.

Essentially he pointed out that it says we are guilty of all; not that we DID commit all sins, but are guilty. But why? I don't think that was explained. I can read that statement - you are guilty of all - but I struggle to relate it to my life or to reality, i.e. what way am I guilty. Am I guilty just because I'm a human? Given Ray's objection to eternal damnation on (one of the many) grounds that it is simply unfair, unjust, illogical etc, I can't believe that he'd stop at "you are guilty of all, because it says so." I was hoping to come to an understanding of why it is right that I be guilty of all sins.

I was listening after a nightshift so perhaps my brain wasn't working properly; I'll listen again, but in the meantime, any thoughts?
       


Hi Farlsborough. 

Here is how I see it:  Without God and His laws, our measure stick of righteousness is other people, which is very relative.  The Hebrews knew that the Babylonians  sacrificed their children in the fire to Moloch for prosperity and to cleanse their sins, and the Hebrews said in their hearts "I'm not like those people.  We're better than those people."  But they weren't, because in a sick way, they BENEFITTED from the torture and killing of these children, too.  That is, they could USE the evil act as a way to be righteous in their own eyes and not further question their status with God.  So in a way, the killing of these children had many purposes!  I mean, you get a pat on the back for NOT killing kids right?

Let me use a more modern example.  I was reading a book written by an expert on abuse.  Over a period of decades, the author met with men who had been court ordered to get counseling for abusing their wives in various ways.  The author, a man, said that without fail, each and every abuser insisted that he was justified in his behavior because he could think of someone WORSE that he had not yet done to his wife.  So, the guy who only threatened and emotionally terrorized his wife said "what's the big deal?  It's not like I ever hit her" while the guy who beat his wife said "what's the big deal?  I didn't hit her THAT hard. She's exaggerating" and so on. That's because the most depraved act they could dream up was the "line" in their minds that they would not cross, and this made them good guys in their own minds.  They were right in their own minds. 

So you don't beat people or torture and kill kids.  How are (or were) you and I guilty of all?  In the world's power structure which is corrupt because man is corrupt, many people have to suffer and toil in ignorance for the benefit of the few.  You and I benefit from slave labor, sex trafficking, organized street drug trade, racism, toxic chemical dumping and more. 

Other peoples' unrighteous acts 'justify' us in this world, until after God knocks on our heart, we answer the door and He sups with us, and writes His laws on our hearts. 

Typos edited
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 02:24:22 AM by Riddles »
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Extol

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Re: Guilty of All
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 11:50:34 PM »

It might help to follow along with the transcript; maybe print it out so you can highlight key points and make notes:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
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Farlsborough

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Re: Guilty of All
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 07:22:16 AM »

Thanks guys, and thanks for the link to the transcript; I'll definitely go over it again. But I see what you mean: my sinful state is no better than anyone elses (including Saddam, Stalin etc. - "the big ones" everyone loves to refer to!) apart from God's mercy/plan.
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Kat

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Re: Guilty of All
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 12:56:28 PM »


Hi Farlsborough,

Quote
But I see what you mean: my sinful state is no better than anyone elses

That's the main point I believe we all need to come to.

1Tim 1:15  This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Why would Paul make a statement like this, he was one of the most outspoken of the Apostles... but as Saul he actually lead them to find believers, where they would then be imprisoned and sometimes put to death.

Act 22:4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women,

Act 22:5 as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.

He stood by and watched 'with approval' as the Jews stoned Stephen.  So yes he viewed his own sins worse than anybody else's, certainly he would say he was guilty of all.

But I think that we all have to come to this same realization about ourselves... that whatever our own sins are, they qualify us as the worse of all sinners. I do not mean this only in a relative sense, but a sincere reality that we are not only worthless, not only capable of wickedness, but vile our self, just like Paul thought of himself. It is coming to that conclusion about what we really are that makes us truly humble, by knowing full well that we are not any better than the lowliest of sinner, we have to see ourselves as vile as we really are in our carnal wretchedness.

If we hope to rule with Christ then we have to realize that every single human being is of great value to God and we are no better than any one of them. "No one is good but One, that is God."

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 02:07:06 PM by Kat »
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microlink

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Re: Guilty of All
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 01:59:03 PM »

Very well stated, Kat.
 8)
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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

indianabob

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Re: Guilty of All
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 11:55:22 PM »

Ditto Microlink,
Kat is way cool in her counsel.
I note too that she patiently waits while each of us shares our personal thoughts before condensing the many views into a manageable few.

Thanks Kat   8)
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