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Author Topic: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual  (Read 1185 times)

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Farlsborough

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Carnality, physical vs. spiritual
« on: June 27, 2014, 07:34:38 AM »

So, I'll happily admit that I posted this at tentmaker before I knew this forum existed. Perhaps you guys can help?

One of Ray's main ideas seems to be "first the physical, then the spiritual" - how God is creating us in His image, and because God is spirit, Ray seems to strongly believe that our physicality is linked with our carnal minds, both of which will be done away with (either at the resurrection or in the judgement/LoF, I can't remember).

I find this difficult to understand. It seems an awfully long winded way to do something to create a whole reality only as a means to an end, only to entirely destroy it and save just the purified essence. Like, buying a complicated and expensive coffee machine just to get the smell of fresh coffee in your house! Likewise, the messages regarding resurrection often seem to revolve around sowing seeds; sown perishable, raised imperishable. Yes, our resurrection bodies will be very different, but surely there is continuity there? A seed is different to a tree but there is nevertheless something of the seed in the tree. Given that our creation contains great beauty, that God will be all in all and knowledge of Him will fill the earth like the waters cover the sea, doesn't this suggest physical-and-then-so-much-more, rather than utter destruction of all that is material and re-implantation into some totally new spiritual body? Didn't the resurrected Christ eat with His disciples specifically to demonstrate that He wasn't just a ghost or some ethereal thing? Didn't his spiritual body bear the scars of his resurrection? If God is spirit - invisible - and we are to be like Him in that way, what was Jesus' resurrected body all about?

And if everything physical is going to be destroyed, how can there even be any meaningful continuity for us between this age and the next? If all concepts of movement, dwelling places, nourishment and so on are done away with for some 6th dimensional craziness (however wonderful), how is any of my earthly experience going to have any bearing, and therefore how can I be in any way the same person?

I have been taught that the idea of our spirits wafting off to a transcendent and ethereal plane when we die is a platonist imposition; that Hebraic tradition is very happy with our physicality and that God can and will redeem creation (in some pretty mind boggling way), not just use it as a scrapbook to be destroyed when it's served it's purpose.

The metaphor I've thought useful previously is like a caterpillar and butterfly; it is the same "thing", but organisationally is totally different, and much improved/beautified. Nevertheless, it isn't just some essence of caterpillar infused into a totally new butterfly - they are the same thing, it is transformed.

I also feel like to totally denigrate our physicality is to insult God's creation. Yes, I understand that he is creating us in his image and this may involve ignoble vessels designed for destruction, but God is making all things renewed. Overall, the scriptures to me seem to speak not of trashing the physical (at least not permanently) but of utterly restoring it and then some.

I would love to hear your wisdom on this!
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Rene

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 12:43:55 PM »


One of Ray's main ideas seems to be "first the physical, then the spiritual" - how God is creating us in His image, and because God is spirit, Ray seems to strongly believe that our physicality is linked with our carnal minds, both of which will be done away with (either at the resurrection or in the judgement/LoF, I can't remember).

,

Hi Falsborough,

The "first the physical, then the spiritual" is a scriptural true.  It's not just one of Ray's ideas.  Just wanted to make that clear. :)

1Cor 15:46-49 - "But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[a] also bear the image of the man of heaven." (ESV)

René


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Kat

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 02:02:36 PM »


Quote
One of Ray's main ideas seems to be "first the physical, then the spiritual" - how God is creating us in His image, and because God is spirit, Ray seems to strongly believe that our physicality is linked with our carnal minds, both of which will be done away with (either at the resurrection or in the judgement/LoF, I can't remember).

What will be destroyed is our carnality in judgment. When Paul said "we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" he didn't say that all the physical aspect was lost and gone forever. As you were saying Jesus appeared to the disciples in a physical form, but it's pretty clear in the heavenly realm He would be in a glorious spiritual body, much more than just an essence.

But He was able to have a physical form as He needed to (even in the OT)... maybe it will be the same with those in the first resurrection. Yes the elect are to be in the likeness of God, but that does not mean invisible like the Father, Christ Jesus is the 'visible' form of God, which I believe we will be like.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God,

I'm supposing the this verse is why you think that "everything physical is going to be destroyed."

2Peter 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

I do not believe that this is speaking of actually literally burning up the physical earth. It's another parable, and it's the carnal works that will be destroyed. If you are aware of Ray's no. 12 article 'God Judges the World in a Pond,' he believed this will happen in the next age on the earth. All the people in the white throne resurrection will be raised back to a physical life on earth to be judged and cleansed of unrighteousness/carnality. (Here's a link to where Ray spoke of being raised physical http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html)

Anyway we are physical now and I guess it's impossible for us to relate in any way to what it's like in the spiritual realm, "for now we see in a mirror dimly," (1 Cor 13:12). But I believe that the spiritual realm far exceeds in every way this physical universe, if you think about it this universe is the only thing we know of. I mean the Father thought up and through His Son brought all this into being... what all else might He have done throughout His existence? It's mind boogying to even try to contemplate how extensive the spiritual realm could be.

But I think He might just like the final state of this creation enough to keep it  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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jojoross

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 05:00:39 PM »

this verse is good too  ;):

1 Corinthians 15:44-It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.


Gods Peace,
Jordan
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Farlsborough

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Re: Carnality, physical vs. spiritual
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 05:24:22 PM »

But I think He might just like the final state of this creation enough to keep it  :)

Thanks for clarifying that Kat, I think you're right  :) I think when talking about "the flesh" all the time it's difficult (but important) to separate carnality/the carnal mind from the fact that we have physical bodies at the moment. I don't think it's my crooked teeth that are causing enmity between me and God!

And René, you're right of course! I should have said "themes"; it's something he comes back to all the time. For good reason...
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