bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: A better resurrection?  (Read 6038 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Farlsborough

  • Guest
A better resurrection?
« on: July 04, 2014, 05:32:56 PM »

So, still working through Ray's teachings. Previously I had not really thought of the millennial reign much, as I associated it with very dispensationalist teachings which I had other objections to. So, I have come to see the resurrections foretold by the shadows of the Hebrew feasts etc.

The question that has just occurred to me - to which there is presumably an easy answer that I am stupidly overlooking - is this: what or who will the elect "rule over with a rod of iron" during the kingdom age, if "the many" are not yet resurrected? And if they are resurrected to judgement, but are not resurrected in glorified spiritual bodies, in what sense are they resurrected?
Logged

Rene

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1531
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 07:32:11 PM »


The question that has just occurred to me - to which there is presumably an easy answer that I am stupidly overlooking - is this: what or who will the elect "rule over with a rod of iron" during the kingdom age, if "the many" are not yet resurrected? And if they are resurrected to judgement, but are not resurrected in glorified spiritual bodies, in what sense are they resurrected?


Hi Farlsborough,

Click onto the link below and you will find a short paper Ray wrote called "Physical or Spiritual Resurrection Bodies for the Wicked or Non-Believer."  It should help in some of the questions you are asking.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html

 
Logged

Farlsborough

  • Guest
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2014, 08:54:27 AM »

Thanks Rene. That makes it clear that the wicked/unbelievers will not be raised in spiritual bodies to judgement; but I'm still struggling with the order. Other parts of scripture seem to suggest that the elect will be raised, then the millennial/kingdom age, then the resurrection of the wicked to judgement. In which case, how will the elect be "ruling" over a load of dead unbelievers?!

Or is it that everyone is resurrected - the elect first in spiritual bodies but the wicked second in physical bodies who then go on to experience judgement/the lake of fire during the kingdom age, and they then receive their spiritual bodies when they repent or at the end of the kingdom age?

I know it seems silly to some to be picking out the finer eschatological points, and I'm sure we're all in for a surprise etc, but equally if we're going to try to avoid incorrect/contradictory teachings we must surely have some kind of framework for thinking about how these things will be!
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2014, 11:58:38 AM »


Or is it that everyone is resurrected - the elect first in spiritual bodies but the wicked second in physical bodies who then go on to experience judgement/the lake of fire during the kingdom age, and they then receive their spiritual bodies when they repent or at the end of the kingdom age?

Hi Farlsbotough,

What you said here is what I believe the Scripture say.

Rev 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12  His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Here you can see this is speaking of Christ and He is coming to judge and make war, but also He has an army with Him.

Rev 19:14  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Who is this army? It says they are "clothed in fine linen." So I need to jump around in Revelations a bit to gather the Scripture that shows who they are.

Rev 7:3  saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 

I believe that this is speaking of the elect being prepared and sealed with the Holy Spirit down through this age. But I believe the key is in their cleansed and purified "robes,"

Rev 7:9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
v. 14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
v. 8  And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

So in those Scriptures it makes it quite clear who the elect and the symbolism of their wearing fine white robes and they are the army coming with Christ to rule the nations.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This is speaking of the elect ruling with Christ for 1000 years (symbolic number, just mean as long as it takes). But it is in the next verse 5 where the confusion lies. But a very significant thing is that Ray found there to be a list of spurious passages, sentences, and words compiled by Dr. Tischendorf, based on his careful and analytical study of the Sinaitic manuscript.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
Until the discovery by Constantin von Tischendorf of the Sinaiticus text, the Codex Vaticanus was unrivaled.[4]

The Codex Sinaiticus came to the attention of scholars in the 19th century at the Saint Catherine's Monastery, with further material discovered in the 20th and 21st centuries. Although parts of the Codex are scattered across four libraries around the world, most of the manuscript today resides within the British Library.[3][5] Since its discovery, study of the Codex Sinaiticus has proven to be extremely useful to scholars for critical studies of biblical text.
v
The codex was written in the 4th century. It could not have been written before 325 because it contains the Eusebian Canons, which is a terminus post quem. It could not have been written after 360 because of certain references to Church fathers in the margin.

----------------------------------------------------------

The list compiles only the words or phrases which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Though many of the spurious passages have already been corrected in modern versions of the Bible, at this point it seems to be wise to delete any of these found in your Bible and I find it a good idea to use several translations in my study. Here is a link to the list we have here
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html

So getting back to the verse in question, it is verse 5 in Revelation 20 where to first part in considered spurious.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Now when you put verses 4 and 5 together without the spurious part it clears of the confusion.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
v. 5  This is the first resurrection.

The elect are raised up in the first resurrection, maybe meaning the first part of the resurrection, as they are gathered united with Christ "in the air" (1 Thess 4:16-17). Now you can see how the elect are with Christ and will descend to the earth with Christ and that begins rule over the nations for the thousand years. But first He must raise them up.

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here you can see are all the nations raised up, the elect are already raised up and are there with Christ, as He has them separated His sheep from the rest "not in the book of life", the goats.

Mat 25:32  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

There are so many Scripture which speak of ruling - judging the nations in the next age, here are a few.

Rev 19:15  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
v. 16  And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Oba 1:15  "For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.

Jer 25:30  "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: 'The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
v. 31  A noise will come to the ends of the earth— For the LORD has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the LORD."

Isa 52:6  Therefore My people shall know My name; Therefore they shall know in that day That I am He who speaks: 'Behold, it is I.' "
v. 7  How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good things, Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
v. 8  Your watchmen shall lift up their voices, With their voices they shall sing together; For they shall see eye to eye When the LORD brings back Zion.
v. 9  Break forth into joy, sing together, You waste places of Jerusalem! For the LORD has comforted His people, He has redeemed Jerusalem.
v. 10  The LORD has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations; And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.
v. 11  Depart! Depart! Go out from there, Touch no unclean thing; Go out from the midst of her, Be clean, You who bear the vessels of the LORD.
v. 12  For you shall not go out with haste, Nor go by flight; For the LORD will go before you, And the God of Israel will be your rear guard.
v. 13  Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
v. 14  Just as many were astonished at you, So His visage was marred more than any man, And His form more than the sons of men;
v. 15  So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; For what had not been told them they shall see, And what they had not heard they shall consider.

Jer 10:10  But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation.

Jer 3:17  "At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts. 

Rev 22:2  In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3  And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

Farlsborough

  • Guest
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2014, 03:17:26 PM »

Thanks Kat, that's really helpful. Do you feel that the 144,000 and the crowd too numerable to count are one and the same? This has been my opinion. Or do you feel the 144,000 are the elect  who are also from the tribes of Israel, as some do?

It's difficult, because nowhere does it mention a physical resurrection. I don't think we can be fully sure of any of this, but I cannot wait to see how what is spoken of in Revelation all plays out.  :-\
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2014, 04:56:05 PM »


Do you feel that the 144,000 and the crowd too numerable to count are one and the same? This has been my opinion. Or do you feel the 144,000 are the elect  who are also from the tribes of Israel, as some do?

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of those sealed, (one hundred and forty four thousands were sealed out of all the tribes of the sons of Israel):

This 144,000 is a symbolic number, as the next verse show that 12,000 were taken out of all 12 tribes of Israel. To me this is symbolic of the elect being brought out from all peoples around the earth through the centuries since Christ. So there would be a representative of all the peoples on earth.

Rev 7:9  After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands, (Young's)

I don't think this multitude was so numerous to count/number, but more like God was not willing that a exact number be put on them.

Quote
It's difficult, because nowhere does it mention a physical resurrection. I don't think we can be fully sure of any of this, but I cannot wait to see how what is spoken of in Revelation all plays out.

I think that as Ray put it in his paper 'Physical or Spiritual Resurrection Bodies...' that Ezekiel 37 is speaking in symbolic language of the resurrection of all the dead. This was speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel (symbolic of all people) and they being before the sacrifice of Christ, therefore shows that they cannot be in the first resurrection of the elect. That chapter depicts a physical resurrection back to physical life, for all people. I can accept that it is representing the second part of the resurrection, for the rest of the dead, for "anyone (which would be every human being not already raised up in the first resurrection...) not found written in the Book of Life."

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:26:02 PM by Kat »
Logged

microlink

  • Guest
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2014, 12:27:48 AM »

Most of us agree that the book of revelation is a book of symbols, but not all of it. Some of it is literal as Ray mentioned,but most is symbolic.

Here is another point of view on the 144,000. Can it be that is the exact number who will be in the first resurrection? I know this will be a point of controversy, but here goes:

The 144,000
1. stand with Christ on Mt. Zion;
2. have the Father's name written in their foreheads;
3. are the only ones who can learn the new song sung before God's throne, the four living creatures, and the elders;
4. follow Jesus wherever He goes;
5. are redeemed from the earth (i.e., no longer tied to the flesh);
6. are redeemed from among men (i.e., individually selected by God);
7. are “firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”.

These details reinforce that the “sealing” in the forehead is done to identify those who the Father claims as His children who will be in the First Resurrection.

The material in Chapter 14 indicates that the group of 144,000 is composed of all the servants of God, which is in agreement with Rev. 7:3. Yet, vs. 4 seems to say that this group is made up only of those descended from Jacob—from all the tribes of Israel! But the thrust of being identified with Israel throughout the entire New Testament always centers on spiritual—not physical—Israel.

7:5-8 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand  were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Tribes of Israel
The question that needs to be posed at this point is: why is this list of tribes recorded? What is a total number of 144,000 representing the tribes of Israel given? Jacob had twelve sons, why break the total down into twelve segments—especially if this group is the Israel of God?  When we read the list, it becomes evident that there is hidden meaning contained within it, for the list does not include all the names of Jacob's twelve sons, nor are the names which are included in the birth order, or in any order previously listed in the Bible. The tribe of Dan has been omitted. Yet, Joseph's firstborn son, Manasseh, is listed to keep the tribe total at twelve. By including Manasseh (not Ephraim) the importance of the firstborn is brought into focus. To include Joseph's firstborn, as well as Joseph, required the omission of one of the other sons of Israel. Why Dan was excluded rather than one of the other sons may revolve around the meaning of his name: the name “Dan” means “judge”. By the omission of the name, our attention is drawn to it. When we focus on the meaning of the name, rather than the name itself, we are given an instruction: Judge! What are we to judge? We know the New Testament emphasis is on the Israel of God, we know the firstfruits are spiritual Israel, even though the names of the physical tribes are given. If we are instructed by an absent name to judge, is it possible that we are to evaluate the meaning of the other names that are included? They are, after all, in a very different arrangement than anywhere else in scripture.

Name Meaning
Judah “Thank”, “Praise”, “Celebrate”
Reuben “See, a son” or “See, a nation”
Gad “Troop”, “Assemble”, “Overcome”
Asher “Happy”
Naphtali “Struggle” (root)
Manasseh “Forgotten”, “Removed”
Simeon “Hearing”, “Hearing and Obeying” (root)
Levi “Joined”
Issachar “He will bring a Reward”, “Lift up to Reward” (root)
Zebulun “Habitation”, “To reside or dwell with” (root)
Joseph “Adding”, “In Addition”
Benjamin “Son of the Right Hand”

Interpretations:
Judah Reuben Gad Asher
{I am} thank{ful}
Praise {God}!
{to} see a nation
See, a nation {which has} assembled,
overcome,
Happy
Naphtali Manasseh Simeon Levi
{their} struggle
{was not} forgotten.
{has been} removed.
{Those} hearing & obeying
Hearing {the trumpet},
{will be} joined
{they will be} joined
{together}.
Issachar Zebulun Joseph Benjamin
{to the} reward
He will bring {them} a reward:
{of My} habitation,
to dwell with {Me},
adding {to the}
in addition {to the}
Son of the Right Hand.

Both interpretations of the sequence of names revolve around a nation which has succeeded in hearing and obeying God through the struggle of life in the present, evil world; they are exuberant in their praise of God at the time they are resurrected or changed at the first resurrection because their sacrifices during their lives have not gone unnoticed by God, and they are rewarded as Jesus was at the time of His resurrection: with eonian life. This list and its hidden messages indicate that the total number of 144,000 is to be applied to the first-born nation of God—not the physical nation of Israel, but the Israel of God! According to Strong’s (3478), the name “Israel” means “he will rule as God”; according to Young’s, the name means “ruling with God”. It is spiritual Israel that actually fulfils the meaning of the name.

One of the difficulties in this passage centres on the little word “of” which is translated from the Greek word “ek”. In both The Greek-English Lexicon of the NT translated by Arndt and Gingrich, and The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by Moulton and Milligan, one of the primary meanings of this Greek word is: “according to”, or “in accordance with”. By substituting the alternate meaning, vss. 4-8 take on an entirely different meaning: ...144,000 in accordance with all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: according to the tribe of...

But, what substantiation is there for translating this passage in this manner? Understanding that the 144,000 are the firstfruits which represent those born into God’s family at the First Resurrection, we need only to reflect on the succession of the groups God has chosen as His firstborn to corroborate the substitute meaning of “ek”. God began by calling the nation of Israel His firstborn, which was to become a kingdom of priests:
 EXO 4:22 …Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.”
 EXO 19:5-6 …you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people…you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.



Then, in accordance with His original intention, He substituted the actual firstborn of Israel for the whole of the nation:
NUM 3:13 …all the firstborn are Mine…Next, in accordance with the firstborn of Israel, He substituted the tribe of Levi who became priests for the nation:
NUM 3:12 …I Myself have taken the Levites…instead of every firstborn… among the
children of Israel…


Then, there was one final substitution:
MAT 21:43-45 “…the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.”…when the chief priests (Levites) and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.
God has substituted the spiritual nation of Israel in accordance with the tribes of the
physical nation.

Literal or figurative??




Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 09:10:23 PM »

Everything in the Book of Revelation is symbolic.

All the symbols are explained elsewhere in the Scriptures.

It can only be understood by the Holy Spirit with the aid of the Two Witnesses (who are also revealed from other Scriptures).
Logged

Farlsborough

  • Guest
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2014, 10:00:49 AM »

Microlink - that's quite fantastic! It's one of those "almost too good to be true" hidden gems... part of me wants to say that it is verging on fanciful, and yet we know each word is there for a reason. Thanks.
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2014, 02:44:06 PM »

Microlink - that's quite fantastic! It's one of those "almost too good to be true" hidden gems... part of me wants to say that it is verging on fanciful, and yet we know each word is there for a reason. Thanks.

Not so.

One Scripture tells us that no Scripture is its own interpretation.

Another Scripture tells us we must have at least two witnesses to establish a truth.

When anyone brings a teaching, it is easy to determine if it is true.  If they do not provide at least two scriptural witnesses, then we know it is a false teaching.

God's Elect cannot be deceived.
Logged

microlink

  • Guest
Re: A better resurrection?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2014, 12:01:21 AM »

Truly, Gods Elect cannot be deceived.

From the figures of speech, from metaphors, from symbols we learn spiritual truths.

Ray has written:


Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.

In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS!

The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4).


How true,

From the written and symbolic Word we can see the spiritual.

Rejoice.

Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.029 seconds with 20 queries.