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A better resurrection?

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Kat:


--- Quote from: Farlsborough on July 05, 2014, 12:17:26 PM ---Do you feel that the 144,000 and the crowd too numerable to count are one and the same? This has been my opinion. Or do you feel the 144,000 are the elect  who are also from the tribes of Israel, as some do?
--- End quote ---

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of those sealed, (one hundred and forty four thousands were sealed out of all the tribes of the sons of Israel):

This 144,000 is a symbolic number, as the next verse show that 12,000 were taken out of all 12 tribes of Israel. To me this is symbolic of the elect being brought out from all peoples around the earth through the centuries since Christ. So there would be a representative of all the peoples on earth.

Rev 7:9  After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands, (Young's)

I don't think this multitude was so numerous to count/number, but more like God was not willing that a exact number be put on them.


--- Quote ---It's difficult, because nowhere does it mention a physical resurrection. I don't think we can be fully sure of any of this, but I cannot wait to see how what is spoken of in Revelation all plays out.
--- End quote ---

I think that as Ray put it in his paper 'Physical or Spiritual Resurrection Bodies...' that Ezekiel 37 is speaking in symbolic language of the resurrection of all the dead. This was speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel (symbolic of all people) and they being before the sacrifice of Christ, therefore shows that they cannot be in the first resurrection of the elect. That chapter depicts a physical resurrection back to physical life, for all people. I can accept that it is representing the second part of the resurrection, for the rest of the dead, for "anyone (which would be every human being not already raised up in the first resurrection...) not found written in the Book of Life."

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

microlink:
Most of us agree that the book of revelation is a book of symbols, but not all of it. Some of it is literal as Ray mentioned,but most is symbolic.

Here is another point of view on the 144,000. Can it be that is the exact number who will be in the first resurrection? I know this will be a point of controversy, but here goes:

The 144,000
1. stand with Christ on Mt. Zion;
2. have the Father's name written in their foreheads;
3. are the only ones who can learn the new song sung before God's throne, the four living creatures, and the elders;
4. follow Jesus wherever He goes;
5. are redeemed from the earth (i.e., no longer tied to the flesh);
6. are redeemed from among men (i.e., individually selected by God);
7. are “firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”.

These details reinforce that the “sealing” in the forehead is done to identify those who the Father claims as His children who will be in the First Resurrection.

The material in Chapter 14 indicates that the group of 144,000 is composed of all the servants of God, which is in agreement with Rev. 7:3. Yet, vs. 4 seems to say that this group is made up only of those descended from Jacob—from all the tribes of Israel! But the thrust of being identified with Israel throughout the entire New Testament always centers on spiritual—not physical—Israel.

7:5-8 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand  were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Tribes of Israel
The question that needs to be posed at this point is: why is this list of tribes recorded? What is a total number of 144,000 representing the tribes of Israel given? Jacob had twelve sons, why break the total down into twelve segments—especially if this group is the Israel of God?  When we read the list, it becomes evident that there is hidden meaning contained within it, for the list does not include all the names of Jacob's twelve sons, nor are the names which are included in the birth order, or in any order previously listed in the Bible. The tribe of Dan has been omitted. Yet, Joseph's firstborn son, Manasseh, is listed to keep the tribe total at twelve. By including Manasseh (not Ephraim) the importance of the firstborn is brought into focus. To include Joseph's firstborn, as well as Joseph, required the omission of one of the other sons of Israel. Why Dan was excluded rather than one of the other sons may revolve around the meaning of his name: the name “Dan” means “judge”. By the omission of the name, our attention is drawn to it. When we focus on the meaning of the name, rather than the name itself, we are given an instruction: Judge! What are we to judge? We know the New Testament emphasis is on the Israel of God, we know the firstfruits are spiritual Israel, even though the names of the physical tribes are given. If we are instructed by an absent name to judge, is it possible that we are to evaluate the meaning of the other names that are included? They are, after all, in a very different arrangement than anywhere else in scripture.

Name Meaning
Judah “Thank”, “Praise”, “Celebrate”
Reuben “See, a son” or “See, a nation”
Gad “Troop”, “Assemble”, “Overcome”
Asher “Happy”
Naphtali “Struggle” (root)
Manasseh “Forgotten”, “Removed”
Simeon “Hearing”, “Hearing and Obeying” (root)
Levi “Joined”
Issachar “He will bring a Reward”, “Lift up to Reward” (root)
Zebulun “Habitation”, “To reside or dwell with” (root)
Joseph “Adding”, “In Addition”
Benjamin “Son of the Right Hand”

Interpretations:
Judah Reuben Gad Asher
{I am} thank{ful}
Praise {God}!
{to} see a nation
See, a nation {which has} assembled,
overcome,
Happy
Naphtali Manasseh Simeon Levi
{their} struggle
{was not} forgotten.
{has been} removed.
{Those} hearing & obeying
Hearing {the trumpet},
{will be} joined
{they will be} joined
{together}.
Issachar Zebulun Joseph Benjamin
{to the} reward
He will bring {them} a reward:
{of My} habitation,
to dwell with {Me},
adding {to the}
in addition {to the}
Son of the Right Hand.

Both interpretations of the sequence of names revolve around a nation which has succeeded in hearing and obeying God through the struggle of life in the present, evil world; they are exuberant in their praise of God at the time they are resurrected or changed at the first resurrection because their sacrifices during their lives have not gone unnoticed by God, and they are rewarded as Jesus was at the time of His resurrection: with eonian life. This list and its hidden messages indicate that the total number of 144,000 is to be applied to the first-born nation of God—not the physical nation of Israel, but the Israel of God! According to Strong’s (3478), the name “Israel” means “he will rule as God”; according to Young’s, the name means “ruling with God”. It is spiritual Israel that actually fulfils the meaning of the name.

One of the difficulties in this passage centres on the little word “of” which is translated from the Greek word “ek”. In both The Greek-English Lexicon of the NT translated by Arndt and Gingrich, and The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by Moulton and Milligan, one of the primary meanings of this Greek word is: “according to”, or “in accordance with”. By substituting the alternate meaning, vss. 4-8 take on an entirely different meaning: ...144,000 in accordance with all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: according to the tribe of...

But, what substantiation is there for translating this passage in this manner? Understanding that the 144,000 are the firstfruits which represent those born into God’s family at the First Resurrection, we need only to reflect on the succession of the groups God has chosen as His firstborn to corroborate the substitute meaning of “ek”. God began by calling the nation of Israel His firstborn, which was to become a kingdom of priests:
 EXO 4:22 …Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.”
 EXO 19:5-6 …you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people…you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.


Then, in accordance with His original intention, He substituted the actual firstborn of Israel for the whole of the nation:
NUM 3:13 …all the firstborn are Mine…Next, in accordance with the firstborn of Israel, He substituted the tribe of Levi who became priests for the nation:
NUM 3:12 …I Myself have taken the Levites…instead of every firstborn… among the
children of Israel…

Then, there was one final substitution:
MAT 21:43-45 “…the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.”…when the chief priests (Levites) and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.
God has substituted the spiritual nation of Israel in accordance with the tribes of the
physical nation.

Literal or figurative??

John from Kentucky:
Everything in the Book of Revelation is symbolic.

All the symbols are explained elsewhere in the Scriptures.

It can only be understood by the Holy Spirit with the aid of the Two Witnesses (who are also revealed from other Scriptures).

Farlsborough:
Microlink - that's quite fantastic! It's one of those "almost too good to be true" hidden gems... part of me wants to say that it is verging on fanciful, and yet we know each word is there for a reason. Thanks.

John from Kentucky:

--- Quote from: Farlsborough on July 11, 2014, 07:00:49 AM ---Microlink - that's quite fantastic! It's one of those "almost too good to be true" hidden gems... part of me wants to say that it is verging on fanciful, and yet we know each word is there for a reason. Thanks.

--- End quote ---

Not so.

One Scripture tells us that no Scripture is its own interpretation.

Another Scripture tells us we must have at least two witnesses to establish a truth.

When anyone brings a teaching, it is easy to determine if it is true.  If they do not provide at least two scriptural witnesses, then we know it is a false teaching.

God's Elect cannot be deceived.

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