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Author Topic: judgment  (Read 4488 times)

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rocky

  • Guest
judgment
« on: August 06, 2006, 12:34:55 AM »

Reading through Romans 9-11 today, and thinking about LOF, i have some questions.  The way I see it, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that Israel has been hardened at this time, except a remnant who are given the faith of Christ.  This hardening is death, removal of God's mercy and will continue into the next age.  This hardening is the fires of gehenna/LOF arent' they???  This is the judgment upon those God has hardened.  They at this time, can not be granted repentance.  But when they have been provoked to jealousy enough through this judgment, God will grant them repentance and they will be grafted back in. 

Rom 11:11  I say, then, Did they stumble that they might fall? let it not be! but by their fall the salvation is to the nations, to arouse them to jealousy;

Rom 11:12  and if the fall of them is the riches of a world, and the diminution of them the riches of nations, how much more the fulness of them?

And at the right time, they will confess

Mat 23:33  O serpents, O vipers' brood, how are you to escape condemnation to Gehenna?

Mat 23:37  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem! thou who murderest the Prophets and stonest those who have been sent to thee! how often have I desired to gather thy children to me, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not come!

Mat 23:38  See, your house will now be left to you desolate!

Mat 23:39  For I tell you that you will never see me again until you say, 'BLESSED BE HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.'"

 

However; because of God hardening Israel's hearts, mercy has been given to us, Gentiles and a remnant.  We, the gentiles are grafted into the Olive tree, given the faith of Christ.  Only a remnant of Jews are given mercy, and only a small number of Gentiles will be faithful to the end, as we are told to be fearful, that we could be cut off too.



So my question is this, is the judgment at the house of God now, a judgment that leads to mercy (we were cut off, basically dead, desolate, not able to receive God's mercy), just like the LOF this judgment leads us to faith and mercy

or

is the judgment now on the house of God a different judgment, one of refining; a judgment because of mercy being given to us??? 

or maybe both???


Hope this makes sense?? 


thanks. 

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: judgment
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2006, 09:55:37 AM »

Rocky, good questions/observations, Ray addresses this in quite a few articles especially this one;

The Lake of Fire - PART VI

TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE

Only two sections of Scripture speak of judging every man’s work in fire. They are Revelation 20 and I Corinthians 3. Earlier in this series we covered many Scriptures showing that Judgment is on the House of God NOW (from the time of the Apostles until the return of Christ), and that there is coming a later judgment at the Great White Throne. All humanity and all angelic messengers will be judged in one of these two judgments by fire.

In Part V we saw how God likens believers to a garden that is to produce fruit. God also likens our spiritual development to that of a building. We are to produce much "spiritual fruit" which will also make us "living stones" in a great temple prepared for God’s dwelling place. We will now continue our study beginning with the Foundation upon which all this spiritual structure is to be built.


http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: judgment
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2006, 12:02:56 PM »

thanks Joe, i'll reread it today more thouroughly (skimmed it this morning).  I think something interesting that maybe will help clarify my questions is in regards to brimstone.  Brimstone is in LOF, but never mentioned as being used in the overcomers fire,  why??. 

Works are tried in fire, and with overcomers there are works left over that are built upon Christ; with non overcomers, there are no works built upon Christ, and all are destroyed.

Here is an interesting verse too re: brimstone.

Isa 30:33  For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.  The whole chapter and surrounding chapters, talk about this destroying fire upon all but God's chosen.


Somehow, I think this is all tied into the law, and it's administration of death, destruction.


For overcomers, the law has administered death, and leads us to Christ.  The law in a sense, is a fire of destruction as it reveals to us our self effort and failure (through works under the law, we eventually get to the place Paul did in Romans 7, what a wretched man am I, and cry out for Jesus).  If we are chosen at this time for God's mercy; death through the law  is used to lead us to Christ. 

For those hardened (to be shown mercy at a later time); the law does not administer complete death at this time, and so the heat is turned up, and brimstone added.  Complete destruction/death eventually follows, ie: the second death. 


I am thinking outloud here, and if I am overstepping the boundaries of this forum, let me know please.  I am trying to basically sort out in my mind, if the fire overcomers go through is the same fire as non overcomers, or at least if it is the same intensity (ie: brimstone used in one, and not the other). 

I'm thinking if God has chosen us as a vessel of his mercy, we do go through destruction of our works through the law, and this leads us to Christ; but it isn't as intense of a fire as is needed for the destruction of the vessels of his hardening. 

 

 
 
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chuckusa

  • Guest
Re: judgment
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2006, 12:49:32 PM »

I could be mistaken, but it seems that brimstone being added to the second, or LOF was to lighten the burden of the LOF. It was showing Gods mercy even to the hardened?

I could be wrong, but that just came into my mind when I read your post, maybe it isn't relative to what you are saying.

chuck
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: judgment
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2006, 02:34:28 PM »

Here's more of my thots, let me know if I'm on track. 

Thinking more about brimstone.  According to Isa 30:33 brimstone is the breath of the Lord.  We know that his breath gives LIFE.  So brimstone is in the LOF to give life after death is complete.  Once the second death is complete, life from his spirit is given, his breath of life. 

Isa 30:33  For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it

Luk 3:16  he answered the question by saying to them all, "As for me, I am baptizing you with water, but One mightier than I is coming, whose very sandal-strap I am not worthy to unfasten: He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Here we see all will be baptised with fire, and with Holy Spirit (brimstone). 

Baptism in Fire destroys, administers death, Baptism into the Spirit gives life. 

Rom 5:10  For if while we were hostile to God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, it is still more certain that now that we are reconciled, we shall obtain salvation through Christ's life.
 
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


So we all go through death (administered through the law, to lead us to Christ, (life/brimstone). 


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