why does God love you

[ez2u]

am reading Rays writing again and finding this particular one very disturbing "why does God love you"  it is difficult, hard press to digest this.  Am not sure why, the humbling affect does work but it grinds at the very core of my soul, that i would have to beg for His love as though am not worth anything, a piece of less than dirt. Dirt that he made is more holy because of my nature that He made. This is not to the babe's in Christ for sure. What has been your responds to this writing?

[lilitalienboi16]

am reading Rays writing again and finding this particular one very disturbing "why does God love you"  it is difficult, hard press to digest this.  Am not sure why, the humbling affect does work but it grinds at the very core of my soul, that i would have to beg for His love as though am not worth anything, a piece of less than dirt. Dirt that he made is more holy because of my nature that He made. This is not to the babe's in Christ for sure. What has been your responds to this writing?

Its been a while since I have read the article personally but I do remember it resonating with me as true. What I think we are being shown here is that God doesn't love us while we are in our sins. He doesn't love the sinner while he is yet in his sins. God agapes the world, loves the world, because he sees what it is he is making with the world. He declared the end from the beginning, he knows the final outcome of this creation and it is something worth all his love but in this very moment, the wicked, evil, and carnal minded are not things he loves. He hates these things.

However, those that the Lord is calling out now, trying and refining through the fire of His judgement, them He loves in a way that I think once God becomes all in all, the world will know as well. A way that is so much deeper, like a father loves a son or daughter.

I hope i have the right article in mind here. Let me know if this isn't the one you were talking about!

God bless,
Alex

[ez2u]

yes that is  the article which am studying right now  going further down i read this that you said. it was a hard word for me at first thank you Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

yes that is  the article which am studying right now  going further down i read this that you said. it was a hard word for me at first thank you Alex

Yea, I definitely agree, its a tough one to swallow. We go from undoing what the church has taught us, that God is going to burn for all eternity, humanity, and then we embrace that God is actually loving and above the ways of man. Now ray expounds on this subject by showing us its not so black and white though. There are things God hates! Its a bit of a shocker almost.  We have to face this apparent paradox that we find ourselves in because God does tell us He hated esau but loves jacob. Now I think ray emphasizes, and for good reason, that God's hate is not the same as when a person hates. God is justified in His disdain for certain behaviors and persons but often times, we as humans, when we hate, we are malicious in our hatred and without justification. It is selfishness that drives our hatred while with God, we know that His dislike and hatred for sin is not for His own personal gain, but rather for our sake, that we may gain Christ and the kingdom.

I think if you can detach yourself from understanding certain qualities of God(as they described in the scriptures) by ascribing them to human qualities then it becomes more clear what is being taught and what God is exclaiming to us about Himself.

So God's hate for things is not the same as man's hatred in the same way that the power of God is far different than that of man's.

I think if you get all the way through it though, it really comes together in a meaningful way that really harmonizes with everything we've been learning about our Father through His Word. I don't think ray has lead us astray on this matter but try every spirit and search every matter out in the Word to see if these things are true. Even ray's writtings!

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

1Co 1:23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The "foolishness" of God is wiser than men.  The "weakness" of God is stronger than men.  Is it a stretch to say the Love of God is greater than men?

And what about the "hate"?  Given all the rest of Scripture and our faith in what God has done and will do "to" the world of sinners, is this not also part of His strength and wisdom?

After some thought and soul-searching, I come to this conclusion in line with the scripture above:  God's "hate" is better than my love.  He did leave His glory behind, humble himself and was obedient even to the death of the cross for sinners...I would in no way do that, and in addition can barely muster anything resembling a deep love for complete strangers.   

[dave]

"After some thought and soul-searching, I come to this conclusion in line with the scripture above:  God's "hate" is better than my love.  He did leave His glory behind,....."

Wow! I really appreciate that. "God's "hate" is better than my love. He did leave His glory behind,..."
His glory is our power to overcome. 

[lilitalienboi16]

1Co 1:23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The "foolishness" of God is wiser than men.  The "weakness" of God is stronger than men.  Is it a stretch to say the Love of God is greater than men?

And what about the "hate"?  Given all the rest of Scripture and our faith in what God has done and will do "to" the world of sinners, is this not also part of His strength and wisdom?

After some thought and soul-searching, I come to this conclusion in line with the scripture above:  God's "hate" is better than my love.  He did leave His glory behind, humble himself and was obedient even to the death of the cross for sinners...I would in no way do that, and in addition can barely muster anything resembling a deep love for complete strangers.

Beautifully said Dave. Thank you!

[ez2u]

yes that was quite a statement and true Dave.  i was getting mixed up with the beginning of Rays teaching to glad i touch base with the group.  went on to finish the teaching  but the first part was an real eye opener.  thanks for helping me see  more hugs peggy

[acomplishedartis]

I just finished that one, last week, it was like the four time I read it. It's one of my favorites, and for some reason I think this one would not be so hard to digest for somebody who comes in the first time.

God hates sin and sinners, God  loves what we will all become, God loves us as part of His family, and God Loves you in particularity because you are original and beautiful in your own way. 

[indianabob]

Hi folks,
Please allow me to add just a little.
We need to be Oh so careful when defining hate and how God feels toward His imperfect little children; that God created to be exactly that way. Little brats....

I like to keep in mind that God sees us in a way comparable to how we see a one year old baby just beginning to walk and climb onto the breakable furniture and laughing at our discomfort while dropping fresh poop on our brand new carpet.
   
It is not the baby's fault that we failed to put the diapers on any more than it is the pony's fault that they leave "road apples" along the traveled path and in front of the church parking space on Sunday for the whole congregation to view.

I don't agree that God does not love all of us in a complete way. God is not easily offended, actually not offended at all by the trespasses of a blind and spiritually deaf person and is very long suffering toward us; every minute of every day.
Especially since God does not immediately correct us the way a "parent" should.

It seems to me a contradiction to believe that we are as God made us and yet God loses His temper enough to "hate us" when we act like untrained little children, which we are.

Without a life time of active love from our parents and of course they weren't perfect either, and without the indwelling of God's loving spirit we cannot act otherwise; and God knows that.

Yes, I suppose that it seems true that God arbitrarily withholds His loving spirit from most of humanity during this first lifetime, but that is with a grand and loving purpose that those same rebellious children are not aware of. That fact certainly does not indicate that God "hates" us. To actually "hate" the way most people would define hate is beneath our loving creator God.

Just my view, Ole Indiana Bob

[AwesomeSavior]

Hi Indiana Bob:

I think Isaiah 55:8-9 goes along perfectly with your post: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts".

People should consider that when we talk about God's hatred of sinners, and we attribute personal, human emotional psychology to God's words, we are lowering Him to our level. We are making our thoughts His thoughts, and our ways, His ways, and thereby attributing our feelings, which proceed from our human heart - which the Bible says is "deceitful above all things, and desperately weak" (Jeremiah 17:9) - to a God who is not flesh, but Spirit. Babylon is a perfect example of this. They have ripped the "hate" scriptures from the Bible and have lowered them to a human level. And because they blaspheme the Word of God by proclaiming His thoughts to be as low as theirs, their lives are filled with anger and loathing. The "hate" scriptures, therefore, have become idols in their hearts to be smashed at the appearing of the Lord. In regarding God's love of His creation, or His apparent lack of love for it, this scripture concerning Jacob and Esau will usually be mentioned:

Rom 9:13
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

There you have it. Case closed, right? Hardly. Let's see if this verse is really about God hating a sinner...

Rom 9:10-13
"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her (Rebecca), The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

This is not about God hating a sinner. He had made a decision about Esau and Jacob without them "having done any good or evil." Within these scriptures you can see clues about what God really means by "hating Esau." God is using "linguistic hyperbole" to illustrate His choice before either son had been born, and before either had done good or evil. God made a choice, and by action, He loved Jacob (by choosing him) and hated Esau (by not choosing him). This verse has nothing to do with human hatred from a deeply flawed heart. Read it in the Contemporary English Version:

Gen 25:29-34
"One day, Jacob was cooking some stew, when Esau came home hungry and said, "I'm starving to death! Give me some of that red stew right now!" That's how Esau got the name "Edom." Jacob replied, "Sell me your rights as the first-born son." "I'm about to die," Esau answered. "What good will those rights do me?" But Jacob said, "Promise me your birthrights, here and now!" And that's what Esau did. Jacob then gave Esau some bread and some of the bean stew, and when Esau had finished eating and drinking, he just got up and left, showing how little he thought of his rights as the first-born".

Prophecy fulfilled. Esau had no idea that he was making a choice to fulfill God's will. He probably just thought he was making a choice to fill his stomach. Nevertheless, he sold his birthright. Here is how the King James renders that last verse:

Gen 25:34
"Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright".

Esau hated his birthright. Or, did he? If Esau despised his birthright, he had a funny way of showing it when he went to his father. Esau said, "My brother deserves the name Jacob, because he has already cheated me twice. The first time he cheated me out of my rights as the first-born son, and now he has cheated me out of my blessing." Then Esau asked his father, "Don't you still have any blessing left for me?" (Gen 27:36).
Does that sound like a man who hated his own birthright? If Esau despised his birthright, he sure had a strange way of showing it by grieving and sorely wanting it. The fact is, Esau did hate his birthright, in the sense that he chose Jacob's stew over it. It had nothing to do with emotion. Clearly, God "loved" Jacob and "hated" Esau and we just witnessed how. Jacob stole Esau's rights and blessing. Then he ran far away, because Esau was angry with Jacob and swore to kill him. One day though, the Lord said to Jacob: "Jacob, go back to your relatives in the land of your ancestors, and I will bless you." (Gen 31:3) Esau, having been tipped off, amassed troops and waited to strike and kill Jacob. But watch what happened:

Gen 33:1-12
"Later that day Jacob met Esau coming with his four hundred men. So Jacob had his children walk with their mothers. The two servant women, Zilpah and Bilhah, together with their children went first, followed by Leah and her children, then by Rachel and Joseph. Jacob himself walked in front of them all, bowing to the ground seven times as he came near his brother. But Esau ran toward Jacob and hugged and kissed him! Then the two brothers started crying! When Esau noticed the women and children he asked, "Whose children are these?" Jacob answered, "These are the ones the LORD has been kind enough to give to me, your servant." Then the two servant women and their children came and bowed down to Esau. Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down; finally, Joseph and Rachel also came and bowed down. Esau asked Jacob, "What did you mean by these herds I met along the road?" "Master," Jacob answered, "I sent them so that you would be friendly to me." "But, brother, I already have plenty," Esau replied. "Keep them for yourself." "No!" Jacob said. "Please accept these gifts as a sign of your friendship for me. When you welcomed me and I saw your face, it was like seeing the face of God. Please accept these gifts I brought to you. God has been good to me, and I have everything I need." Jacob kept insisting until Esau accepted the gifts. "Let's get ready to travel," Esau said. "I'll go along with you."

Remember friends. God hated Esau. God HATED him. He had a passionate gut wrenching emotional revulsion for Esau, right? The fact is, He sent Jacob back to him, promising Jacob a blessing. And what a blessing Jacob received: HE BOWED TO ESAU SEVEN TIMES AND WAS REUNITED WITH HIM. That's quite an interesting hatred the Lord has. His ways are not our ways, but are higher than our ways. His thoughts are not like our thoughts, but are higher. Even his so-called "hate" is "love" compared to our weak human emotional hatred. It is very easy for Him to melt the human heart with His "hatred", just as He did with Saul of Tarsus.

God says many things in the Bible that shock the carnal mind. Make no mistake, "to revere the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." (Proverbs 1:7) But if you see the things He says within your own psychology, and fail to understand how ancient people communicated, you will not understand His prophecy. And many in Babylon go so far as to label God's anger with sinners as "Holy Hatred." If they are indeed marrying the word "holy" with their human emotional hatred, which proceeds from a deeply flawed, dark, and desperately weak heart, they blaspheme Him!

May the Lord Bless.

[Kat]

Well here's another perspective.

"And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23)

Psa 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

In the written Word God shows us exactly what is good and He has made it very clear what He thinks of evil/wickedness, even to the point that He declares He hates it. God's hatred is to show His complete and utter disapproval of something.

Now can you really say that the sin is separate from the sinner? To say that God hates the sin and not the sinner, well doesn't that take away the person's accountability? Don't we make our own choices (volunteer) and sin from our heart?

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
v. 10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

God knows what we desire in our heart, He reads the mind and knows exactly what we really think and we will be held account for what we do.

Rom 14:12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

There are all kinds of sin, some come from weaknesses that we hate, but have yet to overcome... but then there are people who have a diabolical nature, their are minds that seem to have a evil twisted way of thinking. God pointed this out in some of the rulers over Israel.

2Ch 33:1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem.
v. 2 But he did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

Manasseh, son of King Hezekiah (one of the greatest kings, 2Ki 18:6), reigned the longest of any Hebrew King and a very evil reign it was. Manasseh consulted spirit mediums and sorcerers and he even sacrificed his own children as burnt offerings in the valley of Hinnom. He also had countless innocent people put to death during his reign.

2Kings 21:16 Moreover Manasseh shed very much innocent blood, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another, besides his sin by which he made Judah sin, in doing evil in the sight of the LORD.

Now this is an example given in Scripture (there were many other evil kings as well), but if you look through history, even a little bit you will realize that this is not an exception or even unusual it seems to have people in power turn evil. Throughout history you can find that there have been a very great number of rulers, that with the power that they held, who commented atrocities that are hard to believe. And those are only the ones recorded, probably only the tip of the iceberg. There seem to be many people that actually enjoy debauchery... for whatever reason/cause (maybe some have a mental illness of some kind), but they actually get pleasure out of the suffering of others.

So now that you know exactly where I am coming from, is it really that hard to understand how God does indeed hate these people? I mean they stand for things that (regardless if they know it or not), but God has clearly made known throughout Scripture what He finds abominations and they will be without excuse! How could He not hate these people who have such unmitigated gall to so violently assault His creation with such restless abandon? They will give account.

Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; Wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Now of course God has brought about these "vessels of dishonor" that are steeped in wickedness, I believe it is as a contrast to show us how greatly opposite from evil that He is. But it is also the lessons that evil teaches all of us as well. At this time the world is suppose to be contrary to God, on a path of destruction, also it justifies His anger and even hatred.

Deu 32:35 Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.'

Yes God does bring these wicked rulers down eventually to their grave, there is that limit, but I think they die with the very same mentality that they had when they were alive and therefore will be resurrected with the same wicked heart that they died with. So maybe it's understandable why God speaks in such harsh terms of bringing His wrath on such wicked people in the Day of the Lord.

Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;

Isa 35:4 Say to those who are fearful-hearted, "Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, With the recompense of God; He will come and save you."

Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven— The LORD and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land.
v. 6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
v. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt,
v. 8  And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
v. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

This is the strength of God over all the people in the resurrection of the dead. He will have total control over all and will eventually tame even the most beastly.

Eze 11:19  Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
v. 20  that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[ez2u]

As am thinking about this article am beginning to  realizes that one reason it might be so disturbing is that it cuts into the deeper imagination of our mind.  The clarity of righteous judgement which beginnings to put the fear of God in our souls.  I now have a greater understanding of doing "Thy will be done" and the balance of  His mercies "which are new every morning" its sobering. The transformation of my stony heart into flesh is what i cry out for even more.  we can no longer be little children toss to and fro and secretly doing bad thinking Gods mercies will cover us and putting on our church face for all others. I thank God for this word.  peggy

[rick]

My take on this thread through my understanding of B.T. is not that we or any human being is less than dirt, although from dust have we come from.

I don't know the full plan of God beyond the book of Revelation as Ray had explained it, you know what will life be like after everything is said and done.

I do know God made all to spiritually weak to obey or to live a life of righteousness , we know Adam and eve were sinning machines before the fall in Eden.

I know all from birth are vessels of dishonor until God calls one out. I'm not responsible for any and all my action but I'm accountable only.

To the elect, this life is learning righteousness here and now and to the lost, they shall also learn righteousness there and then.

I cannot stop doing anything until God in powers me to stop, let us never forget we are God's workmanship. I know until one is converted that one is the enemy of God but nonetheless this is God's doing with His infinite wisdom with a perfect outcome for all of His creation.

I don't feel or believe God see's anyone as less than dirt, but what I do see is God is working a wonderful work in the entire universe although right now there is much pain, anger and hatred going on however these things are not from age to age without any ending of them.

We know that for sure, because God will one day say, behold I make all things new, isn't that awesome news to hear.

So whatever we go through we have no choice but what we go through are the very things needed to be who God is making us into.


I keep my eye on the future prize and what I go through now is necessary although if I could elude those things I would , maybe that's in part why we don't have free will. 

Just my thoughts.     

[thewatchman]

I don't know about you, but he loves me because "I"M PRETTY!!" 

[rick]

Hello Watchman,


Could it really be that easy ? also ,what would be your position on ugly people ? Lol . A little humor in this life is a good thing.