"Today salvation has come to this house"

[Farlsborough]

...and also "your faith has saved you, go in peace".

Have listened again to Ray's fantastic study on being saved. Decided to quickly check myself and searched for "saved" in the NT. Sure enough, almost all of the results were in the context of "may be saved", "will be saved", "those being saved" and so on, obviously meaning both an ongoing process and something to be completed in the future.

The number of scriptures if nothing else point to the truth of the matter, however knowing that Ray (and you guys) are big on explaining things in Scripture that seem contradictory, can anyone suggest why Jesus seems to imply that salvation "has come" to Zacchaeus, and the woman with the perfume has been saved?

The only thought I had on the matter relates to God creating us in His image. I know Ray says He "is creating us" in His own image, but to my mind He did at least start - there is something of God's image within us, being steadily built up and perfected (I don't think that we are just flesh apes who suddenly inherit the full perfect image of a God at the resurrection). Similarly, is it fair to say that to the true Christian, he/she has been saved, is being saved and will be saved?

In this way, just because these two characters exhibit dramatic expressions of their faith doesn't mean they were not "being saved" from that moment, and also "will be saved" when they are raised up up at the first resurrection.

However, even with this thought process, not sure how it squares with Ray's claim that Jesus never converted anyone in His ministry?

[indianabob]

Hello Farlsborough,

Jesus said that he was sent ONLY to his own people and told the apostles to not go to the gentiles.

If you will read carefully I think you may find that all the apostles and other Jews had to believe was that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah to come. Their belief during Jesus ministry did not include belief in Jesus' death-resurrection-ascension to heaven and their being taken into the "body" of Christ. In fact when Jesus was taken and killed they all were shocked and afterward went back to their regular jobs assuming that Jesus and God had failed.
It wasn't until years later when Jesus dragged Saul/Paul into the ministry that the purpose of the resurrection was taught and explained in detail and the doctrine of salvation without works was taught.

I feel confident that Ray Smith covered this at some point.

Indiana Bob

[Dave in Tenn]

Hello Farlsborough,

Jesus said that he was sent ONLY to his own people and told the apostles to not go to the gentiles.

If you will read carefully I think you may find that all the apostles and other Jews had to believe was that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah to come. Their belief during Jesus ministry did not include belief in Jesus' death-resurrection-ascension to heaven and their being taken into the "body" of Christ. In fact when Jesus was taken and killed they all were shocked and afterward went back to their regular jobs assuming that Jesus and God had failed.
It wasn't until years later when Jesus dragged Saul/Paul into the ministry that the purpose of the resurrection was taught and explained in detail and the doctrine of salvation without works was taught.

I feel confident that Ray Smith covered this at some point.

Indiana Bob

Bob, I feel confident that Ray did NOT cover any such thing.

Farlsborough, you may can answer your own question by considering what they/we were/are saved FROM.  YES, there are ways in which we ARE "saved" now--and since we are, then after this point, clearly and axiomatically we 'have been' saved in these ways.

Yet, despite all of the 'salvations' we may experience in this life, there is at least one which we clearly and axiomatically CANNOT experience...and that is 'salvation' from physical death in Resurrection--unless you know of some way to be physically dead while we are still alive.   

Yet, even with this one, there is a way to be 'dead' while we are alive, and things to be 'dead' TO while we are alive--and a resurrection too.  We have been given the earnest or down-payment of His Spirit--at least to the extent we have been.

"Salvation" IS a process.  Like every process, it has a beginning, a series of events, an ongoing effect and an end-goal. As far as I've been able to tell, the Greek word translated 'salvation' is also translated 'healing'.  I've found it helpful to either link with or replace this word in reading and contemplating scripture.  This makes 'salvation' more a truth and less a theological buzz-word.  When it has stopped being that, it becomes meaningful again. 

As with most 'bible-words', the more you can get that preacher out of your head, the better your understanding will be.   
 

[Dave in Tenn]

On conversion.  The disciples were converted at Pentecost.  Paul was converted on the road to Damascus.  "Conversion" is more of an event, but may also take some time.  It's a change in heart and mind and in the direction of life. 

Before Pentecost, the disciples (even though they followed Jesus and were deeply involved in His ministry) were carnal-minded babes without real understanding.  Before his conversion, Paul was a carnal-minded religionist, self-righteous and murderous.  All save Judas 'endured to the end'.

[dave]

Excellent descriptions and well explained Dave. Thank you