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Author Topic: THE FIRST SIN  (Read 10202 times)

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theophilus

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THE FIRST SIN
« on: July 25, 2014, 01:27:27 PM »

Hello BT family,

I have a question that has been nagging me for a while now. As you may know, the popular belief about the first sin was eating the forbidden fruit. But upon closer inspection, it appears that the first sin was seeing "that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and the tree was desirable for gaining wisdom." Genesis 3:6.

But what catches my attention is what Eve said to the serpent in Genesis 3.3: it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it OR EVEN TOUCH IT, or else you will die.’

In Genesis 2:16-17 "The Lord God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden 17 except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die." In this verse, there is no mention of God saying not to touch the tree. However, Eve replied to the serpent that God said to NOT EVEN TOUCH IT [the tree].

Would this not be ADDING TO THE WORDS OF GOD? If so, would this not be the first sin?
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Extol

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 01:53:53 PM »

Greets Theo,

I was just listening to Ray talk about that this week:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html

Dear Ray,

In Genesis 2:16 the Lord tells man the rules regarded the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  In Genesis 3 it says it is the woman that the subtle serpent chooses to approach and question.  In Genesis 3:3 the woman misquotes the Lord.  This is the first time that the commandment, found in Deut. 2:4, Moses to Israel was not kept.

[Ray comment: That’s where it says you should not add unto My word.]

This is the first time this commandment was broken.  At this point I suspect that the serpent, hearing this misquote, knew it could get her to touch the fruit and she would see that nothing happened to her.  Then it would be easy to get her to eat it.  She then gave to her husband who was with her and he also ate it, according to what’s here in Genesis.  God never told Eve directly the rules, but probably left that to Adam, being he was her husband.  Have a great day.

Dean

What is his point?  I’ll just give you my comments.

In Genesis 2:16 the Lord tells man the rules regarded the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  In Genesis 3 it says it is the woman that the subtle serpent chooses to approach and question.  In Genesis 3:3 the woman misquotes the Lord.

[Comment:  That is sheer speculation on your part.  Many dozens of time in Scripture, we are told specifically what happens in any given occasion, in one account of the incident.  But in another account with the same incident, we are told more information than was given in the first account.  Especially this is true throughout the gospel accounts.  That does not mean that the new added information contradicts what actually happens.  Therefore you can not say with any authority whatsoever that Adam did not tell Eve, not only not to eat of the tree, but not even to touch it.  So you can’t say that.  On what authority?]

This is the first time this commandment of adding was broken.

[Comment:  Well that is just speculation again on your part.]

At this point I suspect that the serpent, hearing this misquote, knew it could get her to touch the fruit and she would see that nothing happened to her.  Then it would be easy to get her to eat it.

[Comment:  Now it is you Dean who is adding to the word of God (and this is what he is accusing Eve of doing).  Nowhere does the serpent suggest that Eve should just touch the tree first to see that nothing would happen.  Therefore before she even ate of the tree she lusted for the fruit.  She lusted with her eyes and she lusted for something to make her wise.  Furthermore just how would the serpent know what God instructed Adam.  Does God always have a snake following Him around?  No.  God didn’t give that instruction to the serpent, He gave that to Adam, after He created him.]

She then gave to her husband who was with her and he also ate it, according to what’s here in Genesis.  God never told Eve directly the rules, but probably left that to Adam, being he was her husband.

[Comment:  Well duh,  and since this is undoubtedly how she did learn, then she did not misquote God.  But rather honestly and truthfully stated exactly what God declared to her husband. So your argument contradicts itself and doesn’t even have a point.  I don’t mean to embarrass you, but sometimes we need to think more deeply before we speak.  It’s okay though, we all are a little incoherent at times.

God be with you,
Ray ]

But he took the time to write me an email, trying to show me that Eve misquoted God.  Because he did, Satan took advantage.  It’s not there, it’s sheer fabrication.   Not only is it unscriptural, then it becomes anti-scriptural.


Also, since we know Adam and Eve weren't created perfectly, and we know they sinned before eating the fruit, isn't it possible they sinned long before this business with the serpent happened? We are not told much about their lives in the Garden of Eden. Maybe they were there for years before eating the fruit.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 01:56:16 PM by Extol »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 05:28:50 PM »

Greets Theo,

I was just listening to Ray talk about that this week:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html

Dear Ray,

In Genesis 2:16 the Lord tells man the rules regarded the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  In Genesis 3 it says it is the woman that the subtle serpent chooses to approach and question.  In Genesis 3:3 the woman misquotes the Lord.  This is the first time that the commandment, found in Deut. 2:4, Moses to Israel was not kept.

[Ray comment: That’s where it says you should not add unto My word.]

This is the first time this commandment was broken.  At this point I suspect that the serpent, hearing this misquote, knew it could get her to touch the fruit and she would see that nothing happened to her.  Then it would be easy to get her to eat it.  She then gave to her husband who was with her and he also ate it, according to what’s here in Genesis.  God never told Eve directly the rules, but probably left that to Adam, being he was her husband.  Have a great day.

Dean

What is his point?  I’ll just give you my comments.

In Genesis 2:16 the Lord tells man the rules regarded the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  In Genesis 3 it says it is the woman that the subtle serpent chooses to approach and question.  In Genesis 3:3 the woman misquotes the Lord.

[Comment:  That is sheer speculation on your part.  Many dozens of time in Scripture, we are told specifically what happens in any given occasion, in one account of the incident.  But in another account with the same incident, we are told more information than was given in the first account.  Especially this is true throughout the gospel accounts.  That does not mean that the new added information contradicts what actually happens.  Therefore you can not say with any authority whatsoever that Adam did not tell Eve, not only not to eat of the tree, but not even to touch it.  So you can’t say that.  On what authority?]

This is the first time this commandment of adding was broken.

[Comment:  Well that is just speculation again on your part.]

At this point I suspect that the serpent, hearing this misquote, knew it could get her to touch the fruit and she would see that nothing happened to her.  Then it would be easy to get her to eat it.

[Comment:  Now it is you Dean who is adding to the word of God (and this is what he is accusing Eve of doing).  Nowhere does the serpent suggest that Eve should just touch the tree first to see that nothing would happen.  Therefore before she even ate of the tree she lusted for the fruit.  She lusted with her eyes and she lusted for something to make her wise.  Furthermore just how would the serpent know what God instructed Adam.  Does God always have a snake following Him around?  No.  God didn’t give that instruction to the serpent, He gave that to Adam, after He created him.]

She then gave to her husband who was with her and he also ate it, according to what’s here in Genesis.  God never told Eve directly the rules, but probably left that to Adam, being he was her husband.

[Comment:  Well duh,  and since this is undoubtedly how she did learn, then she did not misquote God.  But rather honestly and truthfully stated exactly what God declared to her husband. So your argument contradicts itself and doesn’t even have a point.  I don’t mean to embarrass you, but sometimes we need to think more deeply before we speak.  It’s okay though, we all are a little incoherent at times.

God be with you,
Ray ]

But he took the time to write me an email, trying to show me that Eve misquoted God.  Because he did, Satan took advantage.  It’s not there, it’s sheer fabrication.   Not only is it unscriptural, then it becomes anti-scriptural.


Also, since we know Adam and Eve weren't created perfectly, and we know they sinned before eating the fruit, isn't it possible they sinned long before this business with the serpent happened? We are not told much about their lives in the Garden of Eden. Maybe they were there for years before eating the fruit.

Great post Jesse! Thank you.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

rick

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 07:07:35 PM »

it appears that the first sin was seeing "that the tree was good for food

It’s my understanding that Adam and Eve were sinning all along from the heart but I believe the first outworking of sin was when Eve did eat, so the eating of the fruit would be considered the first sin.   :)
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Extol

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 10:30:35 PM »

Greets Theo,

I was just listening to Ray talk about that this week:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html

Dear Ray,

In Genesis 2:16 the Lord tells man the rules regarded the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  In Genesis 3 it says it is the woman that the subtle serpent chooses to approach and question.  In Genesis 3:3 the woman misquotes the Lord.  This is the first time that the commandment, found in Deut. 2:4, Moses to Israel was not kept.

[Ray comment: That’s where it says you should not add unto My word.]

This is the first time this commandment was broken.  At this point I suspect that the serpent, hearing this misquote, knew it could get her to touch the fruit and she would see that nothing happened to her.  Then it would be easy to get her to eat it.  She then gave to her husband who was with her and he also ate it, according to what’s here in Genesis.  God never told Eve directly the rules, but probably left that to Adam, being he was her husband.  Have a great day.

Dean

What is his point?  I’ll just give you my comments.

In Genesis 2:16 the Lord tells man the rules regarded the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  In Genesis 3 it says it is the woman that the subtle serpent chooses to approach and question.  In Genesis 3:3 the woman misquotes the Lord.

[Comment:  That is sheer speculation on your part.  Many dozens of time in Scripture, we are told specifically what happens in any given occasion, in one account of the incident.  But in another account with the same incident, we are told more information than was given in the first account.  Especially this is true throughout the gospel accounts.  That does not mean that the new added information contradicts what actually happens.  Therefore you can not say with any authority whatsoever that Adam did not tell Eve, not only not to eat of the tree, but not even to touch it.  So you can’t say that.  On what authority?]

This is the first time this commandment of adding was broken.

[Comment:  Well that is just speculation again on your part.]

At this point I suspect that the serpent, hearing this misquote, knew it could get her to touch the fruit and she would see that nothing happened to her.  Then it would be easy to get her to eat it.

[Comment:  Now it is you Dean who is adding to the word of God (and this is what he is accusing Eve of doing).  Nowhere does the serpent suggest that Eve should just touch the tree first to see that nothing would happen.  Therefore before she even ate of the tree she lusted for the fruit.  She lusted with her eyes and she lusted for something to make her wise.  Furthermore just how would the serpent know what God instructed Adam.  Does God always have a snake following Him around?  No.  God didn’t give that instruction to the serpent, He gave that to Adam, after He created him.]

She then gave to her husband who was with her and he also ate it, according to what’s here in Genesis.  God never told Eve directly the rules, but probably left that to Adam, being he was her husband.

[Comment:  Well duh,  and since this is undoubtedly how she did learn, then she did not misquote God.  But rather honestly and truthfully stated exactly what God declared to her husband. So your argument contradicts itself and doesn’t even have a point.  I don’t mean to embarrass you, but sometimes we need to think more deeply before we speak.  It’s okay though, we all are a little incoherent at times.

God be with you,
Ray ]

But he took the time to write me an email, trying to show me that Eve misquoted God.  Because he did, Satan took advantage.  It’s not there, it’s sheer fabrication.   Not only is it unscriptural, then it becomes anti-scriptural.


Also, since we know Adam and Eve weren't created perfectly, and we know they sinned before eating the fruit, isn't it possible they sinned long before this business with the serpent happened? We are not told much about their lives in the Garden of Eden. Maybe they were there for years before eating the fruit.

Great post Jesse! Thank you.

And thank God for imparting such wisdom to Ray.  ;)
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John from Kentucky

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 10:52:36 PM »

Actually, it appears the 1st sin was by Satan.

Scriptures indicate that angelic life was before human life.

In John 8:44, Jesus states that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies.  Thus it seems Satan was the 1st sinner.  I cannot find in the Scriptures that there was sin before him.
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theophilus

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 12:01:38 PM »

Hello Extol, I see what Ray meant. But I disagree. Even the serpent insisted that EATING the fruit (not touching it) would cause Adam and Eve's eyes to be opened and for both to be like gods, knowing good and evil.

Suppose Eve had just held the fruit in her hands without eating it. Suppose also that Adam had done the same thing. If God had truly warned them not to touch the fruit (besides not eating it), Adam and Eve would have begun to die at the very point in time that they had touched it. The serpent would have had to egg Eve on to just touch it. But the serpent was focused on getting Eve to eat of the fruit.

Thank you for the link. :)
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theophilus

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 12:06:14 PM »

Actually, it appears the 1st sin was by Satan.

Scriptures indicate that angelic life was before human life.

In John 8:44, Jesus states that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies.  Thus it seems Satan was the 1st sinner.  I cannot find in the Scriptures that there was sin before him.

Hello John, I've wondered about this verse. Who did Satan murder to be called a "murderer from the beginning" by the Lord Jesus himself?
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 01:29:49 PM »

Mat 5:21  `Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;
Mat 5:22  but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

Mat 15:19  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

Mar 7:21-23  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within...



Murder is in the heart.  Does it matter if there was not one there to be murdered?  Does it matter even today among people?  If I am prowling the streets looking to murder someone, surely I am a murderer by Jesus' declaration, if only "to be angry without cause" is to do.

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 01:13:23 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Joel

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 12:50:45 PM »

Just because the Bible doesn't say Satan was there when Cain killed Abel doesn't mean he was not working in Cain.
The Bible does say he was there in Judas before Jesus was crucified.

Joel
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Kat

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 12:42:17 AM »


I think this could be looked at in a totally different light, if you consider this story about Adam and Eve is a parable. Yes I believe they were real people and it was a real event that happened, but as a parable the objects in the story are symbolic and represent something else.

Take the Tree of life... a symbol of Christ Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Rev 2:7  ...To those who win the victory I will give the right to eat the fruit from the tree of life, which is in God's paradise.

John 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

John 6:57  As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

The symbolism of eating of the Tree of life is obeying and living for Christ, the real Tree of life. The same is true with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... it is not a literal tree with fruit that Eve ate, if this is a parable... it is just like we do not eat real bread/fruit to partake of Christ. The tree/fruit is symbolic of something else.

I think focusing on who sinned first is missing the point of this story. The parable/story about mankind starts with Adam, he is the first man spoken of in Scripture and he represents all mankind. What happened in the garden to Adam and Eve is describing what happens to all mankind in symbolic terms.

The death that comes from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is spiritual death. I mean if you think about partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil isn't that living this life, experiencing good and evil, leading to sin and (spiritual) death?

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is all speaking of spiritual death that comes to all who partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The physical death is automatic for all physical living things, but spiritual death comes only by sin... animal do not sin and do not have this spiritual death.

Just another way to look at 'the first sin'...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 10:50:55 AM by Kat »
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jingle52

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 08:02:45 AM »

Many thanks Kat, you are growing spiritually indeed! Your perspective is always so thoughful and deep. I do so appreciate learning here with all of you  ;D
Stay blessed  :D :D
Jingle
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Ian 155

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 05:28:22 PM »

Actually, it appears the 1st sin was by Satan.

Scriptures indicate that angelic life was before human life.

In John 8:44, Jesus states that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies.  Thus it seems Satan was the 1st sinner.  I cannot find in the Scriptures that there was sin before him.

not sure there is a scripture indicating who sinned 1st or that the statement has any spiritual value, however here are some verses that may help..

speaking of the greater sin

Yeshua said to him, “You have no power at all over me unless it has been given to you from above; therefore, whoever has delivered me to you has greater sin

The woman said/replied, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Aramaic ..
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and violated the commandment;

2Co 11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Satan still does it today, even after being punished
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theophilus

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2014, 08:56:54 AM »

Mat 5:21  `Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;
Mat 5:22  but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

Mat 15:19  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

Mar 7:21-23  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within...



Murder is in the heart.  Does it matter if there was not one there to be murdered?  Does it matter even today among people?  If I am prowling the streets looking to murder someone, surely I am a murderer by Jesus' declaration, if only "to be angry without cause" is to do.

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour...


I don't know if it matters or not. The thought just occurred to me. Simple curiosity I suppose. Maybe what Jesus meant was that Satan spiritually murdered Adam and Eve. And since it all starts with these two, murdering them spiritually gained him this infamous title.
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theophilus

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2014, 09:25:06 AM »

Hello Kat, you are correct when you state that focusing on who sinned first misses the point of the story. I am not doing that. I just wanted to pick your brains regarding this topic. I was just curious.

Yes, lots of symbols in this story. Like you said, eating the fruit of the Tree of Life meant being obedient to the Lord God; and eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil meant being disobedient to the Lord God. The determinant factor was THE CHOICE of which tree to eat, NOT THE FRUIT.
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Kat

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2014, 11:05:30 AM »


It does not say they had the choice to eat of the Tree of life, they did not, it was not an option at that time.

Gen 3:22  Later, the LORD God said, "Look! The man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, so he won't reach out, also take from the tree of life, eat, and then live forever—"
v. 23  therefore the LORD God expelled the man from the garden of Eden so he would work the ground from which he had been taken.
v. 24  After he had expelled the man, the LORD God placed winged angels at the eastern end of the garden of Eden, along with a fiery whirling sword, to prevent access to the tree of life.

When you think about what is happening there, Adam was in fellowship with God in the garden, then disobeyed... seems a lot like leaving the "first love."

Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.

As a parable this is still representative of what will happen to all people. So when they sinned they lose fellowship with God or was kicked out of the garden. That is what I think is meant in saying "so he won't reach out, also take from the tree of life, eat, and then live." They no longer had the contact with God and LIFE, they as we all do lost it, they were now dead in their trespasses.

Eph 2:1  And you He made alive (this part does not apply to them), who were dead in trespasses and sins,
v. 2  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

I would say the 'determining factor' was carnality, the decision/choice to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was inevitable.

Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but I cannot carry it out.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am merely human, sold as a slave to sin.

Rom 7:5  For while we were living according to our human nature, sinful passions were at work in our bodies by means of the Law, to bear fruit resulting in death.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:20:49 PM by Kat »
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theophilus

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2014, 11:54:10 AM »

Hello Kat, thanks for your reply. So, as it happens with all of us, Satan stoked the first couple's carnality and left their first love. Right?
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Kat

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2014, 09:59:17 AM »


You know theophilus, they were communing with God and it must have been so wonderful, I can see that as their 'first love.' I guess it is the similar thing to when we first come to know who Christ is while in the church, then going on and claiming to be 'born again.'  But then in comes Satan to direct their attention to what he knew their carnality desired and they were drawn away by their own desires. Remember Eve "saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise..." (Gen 3:6), this was no doubt not the first time she had noticed and thought about that tree.

James 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 

So yes they were enticed by Satan to act on their carnal desires, he is very "cunning" (Gen 3:1) and knew just how to temp them and us all. But the breaking of the law, the sin came when "she took of its fruit and ate... gave to her husband with her, and he ate." But they were not spiritual minded and so not held to the spirit of the law, the actual sin came in taking and eating. But when "the eyes of both of them were opened" (to the world around them?) this was actually their spiritual death.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

And they were certainly held accountable for their decision with serious consequences, as God announced curses on them and since Adam represents all mankind, these curses were directed towards all people, as all follow in their (carnal) footsteps. This is the plan for the salvation of mankind beginning it's implementation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:24:39 PM by Kat »
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Farlsborough

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2014, 09:39:38 PM »

I'm learning so much from this thread, thank you Kat. Has Ray ever written a full piece about the symbolism in Genesis? Or do you have any recommended reading, regarding the tree of life, good and evil etc?

I've been discussing free will, God's sovereignty and so on with a friend recently; he is still very much fixed on the idea that it was Adam/Eve's "free will" that was this disaster which ruined God's plans. It occurred to me to phrase it like this: if you plan to have a child, you know you will always love that child but you also know that, as a toddler, that child will be selfish, greedy, short-tempered and sullen - at least on occasion! You know it will go through these behaviours, and it isn't that you approve or encourage any of them - in fact you make it clear that you disapprove, and that this is against your will - but equally, you understand this painful process will result in a caring, well-mannered, balanced individual who will make good choices and who you will be proud to call your son or daughter.

This seems to happen for each of us with God, but is also the overarching plan for humanity. The garden of Eden was perhaps the newborn -  everything seems lovely and cuddly but ultimately is immature and in some ways useless! Then the "terrible two's" of the fall, which sets the tone of rebellion and hard lessons learnt for much of childhood. Perhaps the teenage years are the final rebellion, the "end times"? But the aim is that through trial and discipline we are brought to be those wise adults who God is proud to call His children.

To condemn God for our sin, then (because that is what people do if you suggest there is no such "free" will) is to condemn a parent for their toddler's tantrums. It isn't that the parent specifically wants the child to grab, to scream, to push other kids. Yet, they always knew it would happen, and they approve of the whole process of a baby growing to maturity. They planned to have that child knowing full well all of this bad behaviour would result, but more importantly, knowing what would be achieved through it.

...Perhaps?!
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: THE FIRST SIN
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 10:18:31 PM »

Good thoughts, Farlsborough.  I think you gave him a fine answer.

I know I've read what God said and did--particularly in the garden account--that sounds just like parents the world over talking and behaving towards kids.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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