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Eph.4:9
Ian 155:
Let us look at what you said that I disagree with
Quote "out of the HEART both GOOD and EVIL come"
"Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring"?
2nd witness "Can a spring, spring forth bracken and pure water ?
Quote "I don't believe the heart is 'wicked' because that is a poor translation. Not to say there isn't plenty wrong with it".
mmmm Contradiction ? would you agree?
Weak? Sick? TRUE. Wicked? Not as I understand the word 'wicked'.
Wicked derived from Wicker... I’m told (like a wicker basket)strips of wet bark are woven and twisted to shape the threads of wet bark into a basket or likened vessel. This process is called wicker.
So if one twists the scriptures as did the crooked twisted,serpent “Did GOD say that “ can we be classed as WICKED if our flesh logic doesn't fully understand?
Quote "I don't take Jesus' reply to one not His disciple as containing some truth that contradicts the rest of Scripture".
You should, All scripture including parables are God Breathed since Jesus is God I would. The word does not contradict.I am the way the truth and the life: I believe he speaks the truth
If you believe your heart of flesh is good/has some good-
There is sufficient proof that Our hearts need to be replaced by God we cannot replace or try and change our hearts. He God will give us a new heart, as was the process that happened to Jesus this process must happen to us and since we are in flesh form and are not dead, we still have all these ugly things in us.
In days gone by lepers were kept outside the camp (excluded) as this was a highly contagious disease , so are we, until the king dips us.
Rene:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on September 12, 2014, 04:57:39 AM ---
He God will give us a new heart, as was the process that happened to Jesus this process must happen to us and since we are in flesh form and are not dead, we still have all these ugly things in us.
--- End quote ---
Ian,
Where in scripture does it say that Jesus was given a new heart? Why would Jesus need a new heart? Jesus is our Creator and while in the flesh He DID NOT SIN!
René
Ian 155:
It doesn't
God will give us a new heart
We must die to this world in order to live in the kingdom
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on September 12, 2014, 08:53:16 AM ---It doesn't
God will give us a new heart
We must die to this world in order to live in the kingdom
--- End quote ---
Ian, you tread some dangerous grounds. I have strong contentions against your saying that God created us with wicked hearts.
If God gave us an exceedingly wicked heart, would that not make God evil because He created us with an evil heart and then tells us not to do evil? Would that not make God responsible and accountable for our sins? Then you are saying God is the tempter, God is the one who forces us to sin. That every man is not accountable for his own choices to sin because he was made with an evil heart and therefor cannot be blamed for it. This is blasphemy. How can God judge us righteously if he makes us evil and then tells us not to do evil?
We know that this isn't the case. God makes no man sin and God tempts no man directly. Every man is accountable for his own choices and will be judged accordingly.
No, God created us with WEAK HEARTS, incapable of doing GOOD but not with EVIL hearts or "WICKED" hearts. Every good gift comes from above, including the ability to do good. God is raising up us to be His children and that process involves transforming us. Taking the weak heart, the marred vessel, and creating it again new. Giving us that heart of flesh. Its all a process, (remember: God is CREATING mankind in his image, its not a done deal, but a process) we are going to have bits of stone and bits of flesh. Parts of the clay that is marred and parts of it that is smooth. We are going to have wood hay and stubble, as well as gold silver and precious metals. All these things will be in us along the way to being transformed and conformed to the image of God. On our journey towards perfection. As dave said, it is not only the wood and hay which is tried by the fire, but the silver and gold as well.
Remember, every man's work shall be tried, the good and the bad ones, and they shall be revealed by fire. Notice paul says that it isn't just the wood, hay, and stubbble, that are to be tried here but the gold and silver as well.
1 Corinthians 3:12-16 (KJV) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
So be very careful in saying that we were created with wicked and evil hearts. This is dangerous grounds to tread on because you make God a liar and his righteous judgement of no consequence, nothing but a show, a fraudulent act.
You might ask then how does a man commit evil if he was not created with an evil heart? Simple, there is no spiritual power in him to do good. It takes God's spiritual strength (Every good gift comes from above) to do the right thing. Man is spiritual weak and his heart is weak. He is all to ready to sin. Nevertheless, that does not mean that he was created with an evil heart. Weak and evil are two different things.
God bless,
Alex
P.S. I don't think wicked in the bible is the same as a woven basket, but rather more along the lines of evil.
Here is the first definition from the dictionary of WICKED: wick·ed wikid/Submit
adjective
evil or morally wrong.
"a wicked and unscrupulous politician"
synonyms: evil, sinful, immoral, wrong, morally wrong, wrongful, bad, iniquitous, corrupt, base, mean, vile; More
antonyms: virtuous
intended to or capable of harming someone or something.
"he should be punished for his wicked driving"
informal
extremely unpleasant.
"despite the sun, the wind outside was wicked"
synonyms: nasty, harsh, formidable, unpleasant, foul, bad, disagreeable, irksome, troublesome, displeasing, uncomfortable, annoying, irritating, hateful, detestable
"the wind was wicked"
notice the synonyms... SINFUL? God created us with SINFUL hearts then tells us not to SIN? To be like HIM?
Did Jesus say in the garden: "The flesh is SINFUL but the spirit is willing?" DId Jesus say "The flesh is WICKED/ EVIL but the spirit is willling?" No... what did he say? "The FLESH IS WEAK" The HEART OF MAN, IS WEAK.
Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
P.P.S Just because there are parts of us that are worth refining and purifing, the gold, silver, precious jewels, does not mean that we are GOOD compared to God. We may be good relative to other men, to evil men, but we are not good when placed before God. It in no way contradicts what God has said to believe that in us, in our hearts, by divine intervention of God, dwells good things that He is refining and purifying. By our weak nature, there will be many qualities that must be burned out painfully through trials and tribulations, but there are many good things we pick up along the way that God is shining and polishing into Godly perfection.
Ian 155:
"your saying that God created us with wicked hearts".??
Will deceitful, corrupt, adulterous, murderous, devising evil,lying,conspiring, do then?
If there was any good in it Alex ,it would not need to be replaced
Ps I was also deceived into believing im Ok Perhaps its just MY Heart of flesh then not yours,
Try not get angry with your brother/sister friend..Me.. for a week.. even our good is Wicked.(Twisted)
I gave you the root of the word wicked - weave ,twist,something so weak it could be twisted...
We call it "Spin" now ie "spin doctor"able to "pervert the truth"
People twist true Christianity into self-serving as did the (crooked) serpent ,it is anglo saxon (Wiker)
Sure it came after the bible was originally written I believe Deceitful may have been in its place.
Jer 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it? perhaps closer Youngs
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it? Hebrew translation
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? KJV
It is when we get shown our weakness as was Job we admit we are,(this comes by testing) I believe the transformation Starts.
All of this is MY UNDERSTANDING and since this is a platform for discussion, may I air what I have been shown ?
So yes check it out.Remember there was NO PERSON IN THE LAND MORE UPRIGHT THAN JOB - Coming Close was Nathaniel in whom nothing FALSE was found (a true Israelite)
So I will persuade you to ask the Father to show you your weak state that you may(boast in it-of it)
Then his power will make you strong,Spititually if one even thinks bad/evil/wicked he is guilty.
PS (the English words wicked, wick and weak all originated from the same word)Hebrew word that is translated as "wicked" is pronounced raw-shaw. It means to be wrong by making trouble, or twisting things with "wicked work" i.e.
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