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Author Topic: Eph.4:9  (Read 8701 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2014, 03:15:46 PM »

Dear Ian, I am not being angry with you.

The scriptures were not written in English so I'm not sure what your point chasing this, "wicked" is "twisted", one down... had it been written in english, and the word were trully wicked, and the origin of wicked were twisted, then perhaps you could say that wicked people are twisted but you must remember that since wicked stems from twisted, as you suggest, that would not mean that all twisted people are wicked. One supersedes the other. So therefor, even in this case, saying someone is wicked and then saying you only mean twisted, NOT evil or sinful or any of the other meanings attributed to the word, shows you are being deceitful and dishonest. I cannot allow that to stand. Had the word trully been twisted, then yes, we could not call them wicked, but because the word is wicked, you could say they are twisted but NOT ONLY twisted. Do you understand?

Now what do the scriptures say, aside from the words of our Lord? Well here is your word in that passage;

I am quoting a brother here with this next statement but I believe it is very valid to this discussion:

Would that it were that simple.  RAW-SHAW always translated 'wicked'?

Here's the word used in Jeremiah 17:9

H605
אנשׁ
'ânash
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
incurable, 5
Job_34:6, Jer_15:18, Jer_30:12, Jer_30:15, Mic_1:9
desperate, 1
Isa_17:11
desperately, 1
Jer_17:9
friends, 1
Jer_38:22
sick, 1
2Sa_12:15
wicked, 1
Jer_17:9
woeful, 1
Jer_17:16

Not the same word! 

Perhaps RAW-SHAW should be reasonable translated as "wicked" and have an English relationship to 'twisted', but NOT A-NASH! 


Jer 17:9  The heartH3820 is deceitfulH6121 above allH4480 H3605 things, and desperately wicked:H605 whoH4310 can knowH3045 it?
 
'ânash
aw-nash'
A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy: - desperate (-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/anash.html

Since there is a separate word entirely for wicked, I am inclined to believe that the Lord inspired Anash instead of RawShaw because He was making a subtle but important distinction between our hearts being wicked (sinful, evil, etc...) and being weak, sickly, frail (incapable of doing good on our own and in need of God).

God be with you,
Alex
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 03:26:11 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2014, 04:35:47 PM »

"your saying that God created us with wicked hearts".??

Will  deceitful, corrupt, adulterous, murderous, devising evil,lying,conspiring, do then?

If there was any good in it Alex ,it would not need to be replaced

Ps I was also deceived into believing im Ok Perhaps its just MY Heart of flesh then not yours,
Try not get angry with your brother/sister friend..Me.. for a week..  even our good is Wicked.(Twisted)

I gave you the root of the word wicked - weave ,twist,something so weak it could be twisted...
We call it "Spin" now ie "spin doctor"able to "pervert the truth"

People twist true Christianity into self-serving as did the (crooked) serpent ,it is anglo saxon (Wiker)

Sure it came after the bible was originally written I believe Deceitful may have been in its place.

Jer 17:9  Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it? perhaps closer  Youngs
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it? Hebrew translation
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? KJV


It is when we get shown our weakness as was Job we admit we are,(this comes by testing) I believe the transformation Starts.

All of this is MY UNDERSTANDING and since this is a platform for discussion, may I air what I have been shown ?

So yes check it out.Remember there was NO PERSON IN THE LAND MORE UPRIGHT THAN JOB - Coming Close was Nathaniel in whom nothing FALSE was found (a true Israelite)
So I will persuade you to ask the Father to show you your weak state that you may(boast in it-of it)

Then his power will make you strong,Spititually if one even thinks bad/evil/wicked he is guilty.

PS (the English words wicked, wick and weak all originated from the same word)Hebrew word that is translated as "wicked" is pronounced raw-shaw. It means to be wrong by making trouble, or twisting things with "wicked work" i.e.

Btw I took the liberty of looking up Ra-Shaw itself in the old testatment using this site;

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/rasha-2.html

Strong's Number:   7563    
Original Word   Word Origin
[Xr   from (07561)
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Rasha`   TWOT - 2222b
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
raw-shaw'        Adjective
 Definition
wicked, criminal
guilty one, one guilty of crime (subst)
wicked (hostile to God)
wicked, guilty of sin (against God or man)
 
 NAS Word Usage - Total: 264
evil 1, evil man 1, evil men 1, guilty 3, man 1, offender 1, ungodly 1, wicked 228, wicked man 21, wicked men 2, wicked one 1, wicked ones 3

Twisted isn't even actually in the definition for the word as it is used in the old testatment, at least not according to the NAS hebrew old testement lexicon.

God be with you,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Rick

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2014, 05:44:03 PM »

I believe everything we humans do are always for selfish reasons, somehow we benefit by gaining money, praise or some promotion.

Being self-centered does not make us wicked or evil by their definitions, if we were made wicked or evil, Godís creation would of went extinct long ago.

We were made in vanity, spiritually weak, we are not made evil or wicked and my proof is we have not all killed each other.

I rest my case.  ;)
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To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Ian 155

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2014, 05:03:30 AM »

last note from my side I having looked at the word pertaining to the human mind,have found this heart condition whether translated Evil,Wicked ,weak,deceitful.... find that this heart is extreeeemly deceitful, I know I walk free of most of the vile (can I say obvious) things I used to walk in ,however it is true, depending on circumstance I have on many occasions spontaneously reverted without even knowing it. No sir this heart of mine is by no means pure, Jesus did descend and walked among the lowest of these minded folks, he obercame and he will give us the power to do the same,Point here is the process's would take probably a lifetime or more for some of us,who is to know.If one transgresses in the smallest area one becomes guilty of all.

Its the Timid ( weak) that are 1st on the list that cannot enter....
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2014, 04:25:08 PM »

last note from my side I having looked at the word pertaining to the human mind,have found this heart condition whether translated Evil,Wicked ,weak,deceitful.... find that this heart is extreeeemly deceitful, I know I walk free of most of the vile (can I say obvious) things I used to walk in ,however it is true, depending on circumstance I have on many occasions spontaneously reverted without even knowing it. No sir this heart of mine is by no means pure, Jesus did descend and walked among the lowest of these minded folks, he obercame and he will give us the power to do the same,Point here is the process's would take probably a lifetime or more for some of us,who is to know.If one transgresses in the smallest area one becomes guilty of all.

Its the Timid ( weak) that are 1st on the list that cannot enter....

I agree with you, that the heart is deceitful but I find that this quality stems not from it having been created evil, but rather, from its inherent weakness. Our thoughts are all to quick to betray us. I have found that even if I were to lock myself in a dark closet for the rest of my days, I would still find a way to sin. My flesh and the spirit within are constantly at war and due to my weak heart, without the power of God, I volunteer to sin every time. I don't think my heart is wicked though but there are certainly things that are less than Godly which must be purged. I don't think humanity is created to be wicked either but that through the influences of Satan, the beast within, and a weak condition, many humans can't help but participate in acts of wickedness until they are completely consumed by them and no longer appear human but rather evil.

I will leave you with this last witness and all the forum as I find it extremely pertinent:

Romans 8:19-21 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Strongs Concordance Greek, Vanity: http://biblehub.com/greek/3153.htm

Subject to futility: moral weakness ;)

The heart is exceedingly weak, who can know it?!

I think whether you wish to consider this twisted or moral weakness, we are in agreement that it takes the power of God to bring about the refining of gold and silver, the destruction of wood, hay and stubble, in us, and to this I can have no contentions.

Thank you for the discourse, brother.

God be with you,
Alex
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 04:29:31 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

dave

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2014, 05:46:17 PM »

Well said Friend. :)
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Ian 155

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2014, 05:54:22 AM »


[/quote]
I agree with you, that the heart is deceitful but I find that this quality stems not from it having been created evil, but rather, from its inherent weakness.
[/quote]

Good discussion,

Questions i asked myself and the forum after rereading every word in this thread..

 Is The heart 1st deceitful,and is it weak? or is it 1st weak? and due to this state, has it the ability to be deceived,and to deceive?

Was Eve deceived by what her heart saw? did what she saw appeal to her lusts,were those lusts already in place inside her heart,or did they suddenly arrive. If so who placed them there?
 
Did the crooked serpent sow a twisted/perverted version of what GOD said.

Was the ability to disbelieve what God said would happen and receive what the serpent said would happen due to a weak mind.(subject to vanity).Who caused this acceptance

If she possessed the spirit of God she would have discerned that the serpent was wrong.

Inside this weak mind/heart do all sorts of wickedness and evil exist.

is the carnal,weak,lusting mind, the devil?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2014, 12:59:57 PM »


Quote
I agree with you, that the heart is deceitful but I find that this quality stems not from it having been created evil, but rather, from its inherent weakness.
is the carnal,weak,lusting mind, the devil?

No it is not, Ray spoke about this in an email. Jesus wasn't talking to his carnal weak lusting mind when He told satan, though shall not tempt the Lord thy God.

Jesus didn't have a carnal mind. The carnal mind is not satan.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Joel

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2014, 01:32:23 PM »

Satan is the embodiment of evil.
Man is constantly forced to make choices between good (GOD), and evil (Satan, World, flesh, devil).

Joel
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indianabob

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2014, 03:18:04 PM »

Well maybe not...
Is Satan, who is the god of this world (cosmos) in any way embodied?
Or is it better understood that Satan is a spiritual force that tempts men indirectly? None of us have been carried up to a high mountain and offered great rewards to obey Satan. We are tempted by our own lust of the eyes, lust of our flesh and our own prideful attitude.

Related to EMBODIMENT

Synonyms
abstract, avatar, embodier, epitome, externalization, icon (also ikon), image, incarnation, incorporation,  manifestation, objectification, personification, personifier
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Ian 155

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2014, 02:44:41 AM »

Satan is the embodiment of evil.
Man is constantly forced to make choices between good (GOD), and evil (Satan, World, flesh, devil).

Joel
Well maybe not...
Is Satan, who is the god of this world (cosmos) in any way embodied?
Or is it better understood that Satan is a spiritual force that tempts men indirectly? None of us have been carried up to a high mountain and offered great rewards to obey Satan. We are tempted by our own lust of the eyes, lust of our flesh and our own prideful attitude.

Related to EMBODIMENT

Synonyms
abstract, avatar, embodier, epitome, externalization, icon (also ikon), image, incarnation, incorporation,  manifestation, objectification, personification, personifier


worth a discussion

Gen 3:4  And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
Gen 3:5  for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it--your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

Tempted by OUR OWN lusts and desires ?? Perhaps they "hang" out in the unseen realm and we take ownership ?? who placed them in us or out there?

Joel are u saying/implying God places us/forces us into a predicament ?and God(good) is in us as well as the devil ?Flesh,world - perhaps a glimmer of truth is this ?
in certain verses we are referred to as "Trees" some similes being Oaks and some Fig  ?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 04:36:00 AM by Ian 155 »
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Joel

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2014, 11:06:59 AM »

Knowing good and evil, and being able to do good, and not evil is impossible without God (Holy Spirit).
Yes speaking for myself, I am constantly faced on a daily bases with temptations, and fiery trials, as many others are too.
If we don't have the mind of Christ for doing good, we give in to some of the works of the flesh. (listed in Galatians 5:19-21)
Christ working in us, helps us to produce the fruits of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-26)
The tree reference is a good example of fruit production.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Sins of the tongue (James 3) is deeper still.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.
Ray did a great job explaining Lucifer, and the serpent, and the truth about all that in my opinion.

Joel
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cjwood

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2014, 05:21:50 AM »

reading through this thread made my head explode.  :o   round and round the conversation goes, and where it will stop only the mods know.  the thread has fallen into the debate vortex.

cjwood
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indianabob

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2014, 04:07:40 PM »

Hi cjwood,
agree with your assessment.
We were just waiting for you to condense it down to its lowest common denominator for clarification.   ;D
You could perhaps find a hidden quote from Ray that 'esplains' it all...

Kindly offered, ole Indiana Bob
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Abednego

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2014, 09:52:44 PM »

Private void LockedThread_Load(object sender, EventArgs e)
        {
            int post = 0;

            if (post <= 60)
            {
                MessageBox.Show("Thank you, we value your opinion");
                post++;
            }

            else
            {
                MessageBox.Show("This thread has been locked!");
            }
        }
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2014, 12:09:31 AM »

Private void LockedThread_Load(object sender, EventArgs e)
        {
            int post = 0;

            if (post <= 60)
            {
                MessageBox.Show("Thank you, we value your opinion");
                post++;
            }

            else
            {
                MessageBox.Show("This thread has been locked!");
            }
        }

        // corrected code

        int post = 0;
        private void LockedThread_Load(object sender, EventArgs e)
        {
             if (post++ <= 60)
            {
                MessageBox.Show("Thank you, we value your opinion");
            }
            else
            {
                MessageBox.Show("This thread has been locked!");
            }
        }
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Rhys

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2014, 03:09:54 AM »

Is this private mod code or speaking in tongues  :P

Rhys
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Iíve noticed that I have changed in many ways since Bible Truths and the forum and one of them is living life much too seriously.

Another one is learning to rest in God and truly trust Him.

I'm still a work in progress.

Rene

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Re: Eph.4:9
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2014, 11:06:24 AM »


        // corrected code

        int post = 0;
        private void LockedThread_Load(object sender, EventArgs e)
        {
             if (post++ <= 60)
            {
                MessageBox.Show("Thank you, we value your opinion");
            }
            else
            {
                MessageBox.Show("This thread has been locked!");
            }
        }

I asked Dennis on what was going on here and he said it has no meaning.  He was replying to what he thought was meant to be a joke.

However, we decided to officially go ahead a lock this thread too.

Renť
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