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[dave]

I know Ray spoke somewhat on and about Eph. 4:8-16 but can anyone shed a word or two on Eph 4:9  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?
Just wondering about the bold part..... the lower parts of the earth. Thanks

[Ian 155]

From God Judges the World in a Pond...subtitle"O God, Thy sea is so great and my boat is so small."  + - 14th paragraph from the top,

"The "sea" in Scripture is a symbol for mankind, humanity—the sinning human race. Scripture often speaks of (1) the sea, (2) the earth, and (3) the heaven—the sea being the lowest, and the heaven being the highest".

My understanding of this scripture is ...

Christ was made man (Earth) experienced Earth and overcame Earth - there are various states of being earthly minded, Jesus descended to the lowest carnal (earthly) state before he ascended to the highest state which is Above the Heavens - The same process happens to us who are being saved.

[Nathan]

I know Ray spoke somewhat on and about Eph. 4:8-16 but can anyone shed a word or two on Eph 4:9  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?
Just wondering about the bold part..... the lower parts of the earth. Thanks

This is a parable:

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1057.0.html ------

Jesus NEVER said that He would be "buried" for three days and three nights. He said He would be "In the heart of the earth" for three days and three nights. He did not say that he would be "buried" for that time, or even "dead" for that time. Remember this is "the sign of JONAH."  WAS JONAH D-E-A-D?

Jesus did not say He would be DEAD for three days and three nights.  Jesus did NOT say that He would be BURIED in a tomb for three days and three nights. You can say that if you want to, but you know that it is unscriptural.  Jesus did not say that as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights, so He would also be in the belly of a fish for three days and three nights.  You still don't get It's a PARABLE (Matt. 13:34)?
 
Are the three days and three nights of Jonah being compared with the three days and three nights of Jesus?  NO!  No, that is not the point of comparison. You are totally, totally missing it.  Here is the point of comparison:
 
Jonah:  "AS... Jonas was three days and three nights IN THE WHALE'S BELLY,
Jesus:  SO... shall the Son of man be three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH."
 
There is your "comparison."
There is your "sign."
There is you "parable."
 
AS "in the whale's belly," SO "in the heart of the earth."
 
But you still don't know what this "parables" means, do you? For you have not a clue as to what "in the heart of the earth means." 

You know as well as I (or maybe you don't, but now you do) that you need a SECOND WITNESS to establish any spiritual truth.  I gave you that second witness, but you didn't even get it because you are still thinking carnal and physical and literal, and that kind of thinking will never explain a parable, as parables are only "SPIRITUALLY discerned."

The second Scripture that is a Second Witness to "heart of the earth" is "Now that He ascended [which He did], what is it but that He also descended first into the LOWER [DEPTH, LOWER, UNDER, LOWEST LEVEL, etc.] parts of the earth?" (Eph. 4:9).  There it is. There  is the second witness.  But you still don't know what this parable is. The "heart [depth] of the earth" IS the parable.

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks, Nathan.

Ian, be very careful with that line of thinking.  There are those so enamored with the 'doctrine' of Jesus having a 'carnal mind' or a 'sin nature' that they denigrate Him and the work He did FOR US.  Ray had no tolerance for that, and neither will we.

"Yet without sin..." is a TRUE STATEMENT that can be applied to everything He did or said in the Gospels, Acts, and The Revelation.  Besides, sometimes the 'earth' is just the earth.  The definition of "spiritual" is NOT the definition of "symbolic".

[dave]

Thanks Nathan for the link I was looking for.

[Ian 155]

Thanks, Nathan.

Ian, be very careful with that line of thinking.  There are those so enamored with the 'doctrine' of Jesus having a 'carnal mind' or a 'sin nature' that they denigrate Him and the work He did FOR US.  Ray had no tolerance for that, and neither will we.

"Yet without sin..." is a TRUE STATEMENT that can be applied to everything He did or said in the Gospels, Acts, and The Revelation.  Besides, sometimes the 'earth' is just the earth.  The definition of "spiritual" is NOT the definition of "symbolic".

Dave, with respect...you twist my words to suit your own understanding

[Dave in Tenn]

No I don't.  I read your words "...there are various states of being earthly minded, Jesus descended to the lowest carnal (earthly) state..." and reply.

The 'doctrine' to which I am referring is 'out there'.  My warning is sincere and applies to you (and every reader)--be very careful.

[Ian 155]

No I don't.  I read your words "...there are various states of being earthly minded, Jesus descended to the lowest carnal (earthly) state..." and reply.

The 'doctrine' to which I am referring is 'out there'.  My warning is sincere and applies to you (and every reader)--be very careful.

I see your point ...it does come across as such - Rephrase, Descended to the core / heart of Humanity and dwelt among them, an experience of evil no doubt , NOT implying in anyway that Jesus partook

For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.( these being the various states of carnakity) he did dwell /descend/live among these minded humans - no ?

Apologies I should work on the way I word things.


Ian

[Dave in Tenn]

Yes, He did.  It's also worth remembering that 'out of the heart' come good things as well.  Whatever is in there is what will come out.

[dave]

Yes, He did.  It's also worth remembering that 'out of the heart' come good things as well.  Whatever is in there is what will come out.

Amen. As one gets older the searching is quite humbling.

[Ian 155]

Yes, He did.  It's also worth remembering that 'out of the heart' come good things as well.  Whatever is in there is what will come out.

Amen. As one gets older the searching is quite humbling.

Not sure on this one Dave, Jeremiah 17v9 suggests differently perhaps worth a discussion

[Abednego]

Yes, He did.  It's also worth remembering that 'out of the heart' come good things as well.  Whatever is in there is what will come out.

Amen. As one gets older the searching is quite humbling.

Not sure on this one Dave, Jeremiah 17v9 suggests differently perhaps worth a discussion

1Co 11:1  Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

For Paul to be able to say that means plenty of good is coming out of his heart.  And we can all get to that point.  But it will only happen when it is all of God and none of us.

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease. Must happen to you first.

[Ian 155]

Yes, He did.  It's also worth remembering that 'out of the heart' come good things as well.  Whatever is in there is what will come out.

Amen. As one gets older the searching is quite humbling.

Not sure on this one Dave, Jeremiah 17v9 suggests differently perhaps worth a discussion

1Co 11:1  Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

For Paul to be able to say that means plenty of good is coming out of his heart.  And we can all get to that point.  But it will only happen when it is all of God and none of us.

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease. Must happen to you first.

So you believe your heart is able to be/do good?

[Dave in Tenn]

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
(Mat 5:8 )

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
(Mat 12:35-37)

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
(Luk 6:43-45)

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
(Luk 8:15)


Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
(1Ti 1:5-7)

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:21)

I thank my God, making mention of thee always in my prayers, Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints; That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.
(Phm 1:4-6)

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
(Tit 1:15-16)

----------


Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: (question) who can know it?
Jer 17:10  (answer) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is incurable; (question) who can know it?
Jer 17:10  (answer) I, Jehovah, search the heart, I try the reins, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings. 

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - (question) who can know it?
Jer 17:10  (answer) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(2Co 5:10)

[Ian 155]

These scriptures certainly challenge any idea that man is able to change his motive,or that no man is good ,only God.

I have found that on a day I am able to walk with good intentions,almost as soon as this realization is noticed I "mess up"(fall)revert .

I believe/want to believe the scripture "if a man cleanses himselffrom the latter he is able to be used as a vessel unto good works.

its the preparation phase that I/we are in...

Personally and this may be my problem/(excuse)... I have concluded that God must change me build me and I remain wicked until that /those wicked things are changed by God.not implying that i go on sinning randomly but believing He, God will not allow it to continue.

In My present state there is an appearance of Jesus in my life not yet fully developed/formed.

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
This WILL GIVE has no time

I am ,rightly or wronly starting to understand that this requires work on our part, that is the "resisting" part, or doing the things which He said we should do...and my conclusion is that it is impossible -Who 's gonna rescue me   ?

[dave]

Rom 7:24  A wretched man I am ! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

[Dave in Tenn]

These scriptures certainly challenge any idea that man is able to change his motive,or that no man is good ,only God.

I have found that on a day I am able to walk with good intentions,almost as soon as this realization is noticed I "mess up"(fall)revert .

I believe/want to believe the scripture "if a man cleanses himselffrom the latter he is able to be used as a vessel unto good works.

its the preparation phase that I/we are in...

Personally and this may be my problem/(excuse)... I have concluded that God must change me build me and I remain wicked until that /those wicked things are changed by God.not implying that i go on sinning randomly but believing He, God will not allow it to continue.

In My present state there is an appearance of Jesus in my life not yet fully developed/formed.

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
This WILL GIVE has no time

I am ,rightly or wronly starting to understand that this requires work on our part, that is the "resisting" part, or doing the things which He said we should do...and my conclusion is that it is impossible -Who 's gonna rescue me   ?

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
(Luk 8:15)

[Abednego]

Yes, He did.  It's also worth remembering that 'out of the heart' come good things as well.  Whatever is in there is what will come out.

Amen. As one gets older the searching is quite humbling.

Not sure on this one Dave, Jeremiah 17v9 suggests differently perhaps worth a discussion

1Co 11:1  Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

For Paul to be able to say that means plenty of good is coming out of his heart.  And we can all get to that point.  But it will only happen when it is all of God and none of us.

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease. Must happen to you first.

So you believe your heart is able to be/do good?

MY heart?  Not for a second.  But there is another heart.

Eze_11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze_36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And plenty of good came out of Paul, but he knew the source.

Gal_2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:

[Ian 155]

 We dont have any good in our hearts

[rick]

Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.