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Author Topic: General Questions  (Read 31462 times)

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zander

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General Questions
« on: September 26, 2014, 01:44:56 PM »

HI,

I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages.  I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.

Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.

1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?

2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?

3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night".  Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it.  A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed.  Can someone explain?

4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible.  What are they (i know they're not dead people)?

Thanks

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2014, 04:47:06 PM »

HI,

I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages.  I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.

Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.

1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?

2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?

3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night".  Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it.  A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed.  Can someone explain?

4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible.  What are they (i know they're not dead people)?

Thanks

Hitler will not be raised with a glorified spiritual body like Christ. Those that die and do not overcome, who must undergo judgement through the lake of fire, will be raised to physical bodies. At least that is my understanding and it makes sense, especially when you consider the likes of hitler.

Those that are Christ's when He returns, will be caught up in the air to meet Him. These are the elect, the overcomers, the same who would be raised with spiritual bodies at the resurrection to Judge the world. They will help usher in the reign of Christ and ultimately, "the end" when Christ will turn over His Kingdom to the Father and God will become All in All.

I think your question to three, is self explanatory. When Christ comes, no one will have expected it. The world will be caught completely and absolutely off guard. The rest of us, those that are called and chosen, strive everyday to be as prepared as possible full well knowing that none of us can predict the day or time of when He will return. We just strive to get closer to God and to know Him better. If He comes during our short lifetimes, then at least we have confidence in Him and not be completely ashamed of our conduct because we were always striving to prepare as best as He empowers us to do so.

I don't know if "ghosts" per say are mentioned in the bible, but we do hear talks of spirit, evil spirits, and messengers etc... It is also entirely possible that because God can relay His message to us in many forms, a burning bush, "a voice", a man who can be wrestled with, etc... that He can also appear as a "ghost" or send spirits that would be perceived as such.

This is my understanding of these things, feel free to agree or disagree. I try and keep it scriptural but I am by no means the final authority on all things God. Just a very human guy falling flat on his face daily due to my shortcomings.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lareli

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2014, 05:34:31 PM »

HI,

I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages.  I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.

Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.

1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?

2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?

3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night".  Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it.  A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed.  Can someone explain?

4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible.  What are they (i know they're not dead people)?

Thanks


I think your question to three, is self explanatory. When Christ comes, no one will have expected it. The world will be caught completely and absolutely off guard. The rest of us, those that are called and chosen, strive everyday to be as prepared as possible full well knowing that none of us can predict the day or time of when He will return.

#3 Alex when you say "no one" are you including the elect? Do you think they will be caught completely off guard? Not talking about knowing the day or hour.

Reason I'm asking is because of the scriptures that say there will be such terrible destruction and tribulation leading up to His return that had those days not been cut short then no flesh would survive but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. Isn't this describing a near wiping out of all humanity? A near extinction?

Also the scriptures warn the elect to not be caught off guard like the foolish virgins etc.
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zander

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2014, 09:11:00 PM »

Thanks for the contribution Alex.

I thought we were judged as spiritual beings.  I swear Ray once said something like: When I die, I will never see my body again and thank God for that"

Secondly, I thought the "caught up in the air with Christ" thing was a church teaching.

Thirdly, I understand the unexpectedness of Christ's arrival, however you missed the second part.  To me, a thief in the night is unnoticed.  He comes and he goes and I do not notice him.  I am struggling to comprehend the "thief in the night" if that is the case.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2014, 09:39:11 PM »

HI,

I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages.  I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.

Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.

1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?

2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?

3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night".  Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it.  A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed.  Can someone explain?

4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible.  What are they (i know they're not dead people)?

Thanks


I think your question to three, is self explanatory. When Christ comes, no one will have expected it. The world will be caught completely and absolutely off guard. The rest of us, those that are called and chosen, strive everyday to be as prepared as possible full well knowing that none of us can predict the day or time of when He will return.

#3 Alex when you say "no one" are you including the elect? Do you think they will be caught completely off guard? Not talking about knowing the day or hour.

Reason I'm asking is because of the scriptures that say there will be such terrible destruction and tribulation leading up to His return that had those days not been cut short then no flesh would survive but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. Isn't this describing a near wiping out of all humanity? A near extinction?

Also the scriptures warn the elect to not be caught off guard like the foolish virgins etc.

Hello Largeli,

I don't know specifically if the elect will be caught off guard. I don't think they will be caught off guard in the sense that they will always be vigilantly preparing for the arrival of the Lord, each day, because we are told we don't know the hour or time so we should always be preparing.  That being said, I think you speak too absolutely on things that could easily be interpreted from a spiritual perspective. Christ said not even He knows the hour of His return

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


 so in that sense, I don't think tribulations will be making it any more obvious even to the elect. Maybe... Again, I'm not 100% sure on these things. We know that revelations is spiritual and that it is happening inside of us now, Christ has come now to us and is making His home in us. The trials and tribulations we endure, each one, brings us closer to Him.

I find it interesting though that Christ mentions Daniel and His prophecy in speaking of the "end times" and specifically declares, "let him who has understanding..."

Mark 13:14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"

Its interesting that there are specific instructions to "flee to the mountains" though I suppose this could be entirely spiritual too... Unfortunately I don't recall what the mountains signify spiritually and what fleeing to them might mean.

I think these prophecies have many layers of meaning and can be very hard to understanding. Someone more learned is perhaps in a better position to speak of them than myself. I only understand what ray has expounded upon, I never went further with these things and ray never really shed much light on Daniel and his prophecies, at least not that I currently can remember.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 09:42:14 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2014, 10:05:44 PM »

Thanks for the contribution Alex.

I thought we were judged as spiritual beings.  I swear Ray once said something like: When I die, I will never see my body again and thank God for that"

Secondly, I thought the "caught up in the air with Christ" thing was a church teaching.

Thirdly, I understand the unexpectedness of Christ's arrival, however you missed the second part.  To me, a thief in the night is unnoticed.  He comes and he goes and I do not notice him.  I am struggling to comprehend the "thief in the night" if that is the case.

Hello Zander,

Many of us are being judged now, Judgement has began at the house of God.

I don't recall where ray said that we are judged as "spiritual beings," and if he did i can only assume he felt confident in his running of the race faithfully and believing that he has finished it. Perhaps in that sense, he could say what you believe him to have said. Again though... we are being judged now and ray was being judged now. Ray was certainly not a spiritual being but human--flesh and blood like the rest of us. I think he was confident that he will be raised with a spiritual body though, as those who endure to the end will be.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


I really think in paul's writtings here there is a wealth of information. I think we can understand from it that those who are not judged now, who must endure the lake of fire, who have not "died" to self, cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven in that condition and will not be raised with glorified spiritual bodies. It sounds to me like they will have to endure judgement first, before they can be raised to incorruption and immortality.

Those who will be raised to inherit the kingdom, to reign with Christ and not be hurt by the second death, to judge the world, they are those who are now experiencing judgement;

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Only God knows who will endure to the end, through this judgement, to be raised and reign with Christ.

Does this clarify the resurrection question? I tried my best, again, I'm not the final authority by any means and I welcome the input of others.

Caught up in the air is not a church teaching, what is a church teaching is that we will be "Raptured" out of tribulations. That christians will not have to endure tribulations to enter the Kingdom of heaven. We know this is false because;

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

So there goes that bit of heresy.

I didn't miss the second part, I just believe that the comparison to a thief is not in the fact that He will come and go and you won't even know it but instead having to do with how he returns.

I found a few verse here that might be of interest to you.

Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

1 Thessalonians 5:
1-6 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 
 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,  that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 10:08:02 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Rene

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2014, 11:06:06 AM »


1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?

2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?



Hi zander,

Here is a link to a short paper Ray wrote on "Physical or Spiritual Resurrection Bodies."  Hopefully this will help you get a better understanding.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html


René
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zander

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2014, 03:32:04 PM »

Thanks.

So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies.  Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh.  My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol).  Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies.  I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.

To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:

When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?

Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.



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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2014, 07:08:37 PM »

Thanks.

So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies.  Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh.  My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol).  Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies.  I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.

To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:

When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?

Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.

Zander, a lot of your questions about the Resurrection can be answered by reading ray's papers.

Revelation says the "Sea will be no more," while this can be and is indeed a spiritual saying--The sea of humanity will be no more, the carnal God hating sea of humanity. It could also be literal; That is, the sea will vanish to provide room for the billions and billions of humans that will be resurrected. I'm speculating on the second more literal interpretation but I hope you understand that your questions have answers, you just need to study these things and most of them are already explained to you by ray in an eloquent and easy to understand manner.

God be with you,
Alex

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2014, 12:38:27 AM »

As hard as it is to fathom, a significant portion of all the people who have ever lived are alive today.  There's more than enough 'room' for all of us.

Don't ask me how this all is accomplished.  I don't even know how Jesus was raised from the dead.  I just believe He was.  He was raised in a glorified, spiritual, immortal body.  Those who are chosen in Him will be raised similarly.  Those He raised from the dead in His ministry (and those the Apostles raised), were NOT raised in glorified, immortal bodies.  Those raised to future judgement will be raised in a similar state to them.  That's a straight answer, even if it's 'wrong'. 

That's the best I can do.  Be sure and read the link Rene provided.
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cjwood

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2014, 05:23:57 PM »

the answer to all of your questions could be, trust in God the Father.  He alone has all the answers.   8)

claudia
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lareli

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2014, 04:52:37 PM »

Hi Alex

What I learned from the towers paper is that peace and salvation for the human race will come but only after a near extinction of humanity.

Ray wrote
---
Yes, there will be salvation for the human race, but it will happen only after a great slaughter of humanity to the point that no flesh would remain alive except for God shortening that period of carnage. Are we told elsewhere of such a great slaughter of humanity? Yes we are, back to Isaiah 30:
---

Of the day and hour no one knows, of course. But of the season? Well the towers paper is a warning that we are in the season now..

At the end of the paper Ray wrote
---
Yah, like somebody's going to listen to this "trite" warning, for: "Who has believed our report?"
---
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2014, 06:40:46 PM »

Hi Alex

What I learned from the towers paper is that peace and salvation for the human race will come but only after a near extinction of humanity.

Ray wrote
---
Yes, there will be salvation for the human race, but it will happen only after a great slaughter of humanity to the point that no flesh would remain alive except for God shortening that period of carnage. Are we told elsewhere of such a great slaughter of humanity? Yes we are, back to Isaiah 30:
---

Of the day and hour no one knows, of course. But of the season? Well the towers paper is a warning that we are in the season now..

At the end of the paper Ray wrote
---
Yah, like somebody's going to listen to this "trite" warning, for: "Who has believed our report?"
---

Excellent contribution largeli. Thank you for the reminders, its been a while since I read that paper. Ray is right, we may very well not know the day or hour but we, perhaps, know the season. What a find by ray on such minute details!

Well, the only day of slaughter I can think of that humanity could encounter is another world war. That would be a most horrific war considering we live in the age of atomic weapons.
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Re: General Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2014, 09:26:06 PM »

I don't think Ray made any references to 'knowing the season', and didn't quote the verse about 'days and hours', so don't "credit" Ray with this "understanding", Alex.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 12:56:13 AM »

I don't think Ray made any references to 'knowing the season', and didn't quote the verse about 'days and hours', so don't "credit" Ray with this "understanding", Alex.

Oh, I misunderstood! My apologies. Thank you for clarifying. Though I believe it still is an interesting point about days, hours, and seasons.
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lareli

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2014, 04:17:24 PM »

I don't think Ray made any references to 'knowing the season', and didn't quote the verse about 'days and hours', so don't "credit" Ray with this "understanding", Alex.

You don't think Ray made any references to knowing the seasons? He may not have said the words "know the season" but saying he didn't reference "knowing the seasons.." What is the towers paper about then?

Is it not a warning that we, who are living in the post 9/11 world are living through the Isaiah 30 prophecy and the end of this age and the ushering in of the next?

Ray may have not used the word "seasons" but how can one read the towers paper and say he never made any references to "knowing the seasons"? The entire paper is a reference to the times/season and a warning that we are in the season. A warning to repent because of the "disaster to come of 'BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS!' " quotations and caps are Rays words. Plus the fact that this paper is the only one on the bt home page with a big picture so every visitor sees it.. Leads me to understand that Ray did want his readers to know the season... Though he did acknowledge that few would take his warning seriously..

He wrote
---
As we have seen in Jeremiah, God will punish ALL NATIONS, but the Christian Nations will be the first to fall.  First God punishes His people, and then He punishes those He used as a club in His hand to punish His people. Few will take this warning seriously—what about YOU?
---







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Dave in Tenn

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 06:47:21 PM »

Largeli, you are confusing (imo) the troubles facing the USA with the 'end of the age'.  As best I can tell, Ray was talking about the US being set to take a fall, not the 'end of the world'.   

I'd have to read the paper again to verify what I just said...I don't have time right now.  All I wanted to point out is that Ray did not say what you said...YOU did.  That is the full extent of the reason for my post to Alex. 
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zander

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2014, 07:15:35 PM »

Wow,so many more questions?

Is humanity soon to be extinct?  Within the next 10, 20 or 30 years maybe?

I am not sure it makes sense to say that peace on earth will come for humans if most of humanity has been wiped out.  Seems a contradiction there.

I'm sure I recall Ray also saying that the world is NOT going to end.  I recall him saying this many times because "World is going to end" was such a favourite to his detractors and obviously the church.

Let's keep this thread going, it's very interesting.
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Re: General Questions
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2014, 08:45:31 PM »

Hi Zander,

I think that God set the example for His way to deal with rebellious mankind and mankind's prideful accomplishments. Much of what we have accomplished since Lord Jesus ascended has led to more and more sin, disease, war etc. Why would we want to preserve most of it?
For example all the great cathedrals and their false teaching. Won't they all need to come down and be covered over with grass? All the luxury ocean liners, sky scrapers and flights to the moon and mars; scrap iron for new bridges & farm implements.

When the Lord Jesus comes to rule he quite likely will start with a much smaller population base; similar to the eight persons who left the ark after the mythical (?) flood.

There is really nothing that men have invented and produced to please themselves that will be needed during the coming Kingdom on earth. We will very possibly get back to nature in its finest sense. Mankind's new goal will be building family values and teaching our children how to live righteously.

Indiana Bob
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 08:47:36 PM by indianabob »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2014, 11:05:32 PM »

Here's Ray's words, Largeli.

THE IMPORTANCE OF SYMBOLISM

Just off Wall Street is the World Trade Center, where the recent Twin Towers symbolized the power and might of America. The Towers were more than just office buildings; they were symbols of the grandest kind. They stood 110 stories each (1,368 ft.), that’s over a quarter mile high. The Towers were seven years in the building, and boasted 10,000,000 sq. ft. (240 acres) of office space where 50,000 people worked. The tenants were diversified, but mostly it was a center for banks, trading companies, manufacturing headquarters, shipping fleets, securities, insurance, financial institutions, and did I mention banks?

The greatest center of financial power in the world is New York City. And the Symbol of Power for that "Great City" was the Twin Towers. Previously it was the Empire State Building: New York is the "Empire State."

When those Twin Tower Symbols fell, it was not just another disaster—it was a symbol of disaster to come of "BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS!"

Let’s see what God’s Word says about this monstrous event of September 11, 2001.



and...

It has been remarked many times that "prophecy is dual." Actually, I believe that many prophecies are multi-layered. That is, they are numerous fulfillment's usually beginning with the physical and literal, moving toward the figurative and spiritual.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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