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[zander]

Hi IndianaBob

I don't doubt that a lot of the stuff here on earth needs to start again.

I never thought that "most of humanity" will be gone when Jesus comes, however.  That is a revelation.  Wow.

Ebola perhaps?

[indianabob]

Hi again Zander,
I'm no predictor of future events and especially not on this forum. I'm just thinking of what seems logical.
 
There certainly could be many more diseases or earthquakes or war between nations that would reduce the world's population, but putting that aside please consider.
 
When the Lord Jesus returns to rule from Jerusalem, do you suppose that he will have to continuously, for decades, contend with America, Russia, China, India, Great Britain all retaining their nuclear bombs and intercontinental missiles?
I seriously doubt it!

There may be some semblance of independent nations remaining in the earth for a while, but why would God through Christ permit the threat of nuclear war to hang over the heads of the earth's populations?
Seems to me that those weapons of mass destruction must be dismantled or miraculously disposed of early in the administration of Peace that Lord Jesus will bring.

Also, think of all the international commerce for profit that is not really necessary for humans to have a productive and loving family life.
Consider all the factories that produce weapons of war and provide high paying jobs for the citizens of many advanced nations. Those technical jobs will all be gone or replaced with other tasks that build up rather than tear down and destroy.

Why will we continue to pollute the air we breath with jet airplane exhaust, automobile exhaust etc. etc?? Over 90 percent of air travel is a luxury and why drive for an hour each way to work when we will have more useful goals in our local communities in our daily lives under the administration of peace.

If we check on the results of our selfish and greedy way of living in this century it becomes apparent that changes are needed and Christ will bring them and teach us to appreciate God's way of living in full joy and love toward one another.

Just my view. Indiana Bob

[lareli]

Hi Zander

The world won't end. It will be redeemed. After a great slaughter of humanity. Such a great slaughter that no flesh would survive if God hadn't cut those days short. But He WILL cut those days short for the elects sake. The bible says that no 'FLESH' would survive unless the days were cut short. FLESH. So we can't spiritualize this prophecy away..

Ray wrote the paper "in the day of great slaughter when the towers fall" to show his readers that he believes the twin towers falling on 9/11 were attested to in the book of Isaiah. And that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are the 'ISRAEL OF GOD'.


I'll quote Ray
---
Back in 2002 I gave a short lecture on 9-11. I now wish to make public to our readers the prophetic implications of this colossal disaster, as I believe is attested to in the Book of Isaiah.


---
and
---
And lest we get puffed up in the realization that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the "ISRAEL OF GOD" in prophecy, let us not forget that God’s Church is made up of the "MANY called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 22:14 & Matt. 7:21-23).
---


Ray goes on to say that the punishment from God begins with the Christian nations but it doesn't stop there. God will punish ALL nations after He's punished the Christian nations.

I'll quote Ray
---
As we have seen in Jeremiah, God will punish ALL NATIONS, but the Christian Nations will be the first to fall.  First God punishes His people, and then He punishes those He used as a club in His hand to punish His people. Few will take this warning seriously—what about YOU?
---


If anyone thinks this paper is about anything else other than the end of the age and the beginning of the next age.. Then you have to ignore huge chunks of what Ray wrote. One only need read the 1st paragraph of the paper to see that he's talking about the world and not just America.

[zander]

"When the Lord Jesus returns to rule from Jerusalem, do you suppose that he will have to continuously, for decades, contend with America, Russia, China, India, Great Britain all retaining their nuclear bombs and intercontinental missiles?
I seriously doubt it!"

Well Jesus is a miracle worker, I am sure he could render nukes quite useless just by thinking about them.

But alas as I read, most of humanity will be wiped off the earth then.  Jeez that is some conclusion.

It says Jesus will come at the most unexpected of times.  I expect him to come when there is big time tribulation, which is NOT unexpected.  So maybe he will come when there is peace already...I don't know.

[Ian 155]

There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.

Rev 3:3  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.   

notice twice in one verse"I will come on thee"

[lareli]

There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.

Ray addressed this in his paper, he writes..

"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"

And

"God is describing through Isaiah a great and high wall that will collapse because of a "FALLING BREACH" up on the wall. Now then, who has ever heard of a stone wall or tower falling down because some stones came loose or broke out higher UP on the wall. The breach would merely fall down and have virtually no effect on the wall beneath it. Yet with the World Trade Towers, in both cases, it was a breach high up on the walls that brought down the entire Towers. Just as Isaiah prophesied."


When Isaiah wrote this prophecy he wasn't prophesying about any other towers falling in the history of the world. He was describing the twin towers that collapsed in America on September 11, 2001.

Ray believed it. I believe it.

[indianabob]

Folks,
Another coming fall or crash would be the fall and ultimate crash of the "almighty" dollar; the world's currency.

What will ordinary folks in the U. S. do when most goods and services are closed to the public for lack of payment!??

We don't have to be physically attacked by foreign invaders in order to collapse from within. When the weight of Federal Debt. falls upon the 100,000,000 who actually have jobs and pay taxes the other 230,000,000 will have no one to support them. The Fed can print more money, but inflation will run rampant and bread may cost hundreds of dollars. Remember the example of Germany in 1930 along with the U.S. in our own deep depression.

Only now we have credit cards as our currency and how will you buy food when your credit limit needs to rise to $100,000.00 and your job pays $3,000 per month?

What will happen is that money will be hoarded and will not circulate and businesses that depend upon money [credit] moving or circulating in order to keep the business alive, will DIE.
Doctors and staff need to feed their families too, they cannot work for nothing. Hospitals will close.
Walmart a store that makes billions on a 4% margin of profit will close and lay off the folks who need jobs the most. Trucking companies will not haul food from Mexico and California to the Midwest for nothing, how will we eat? Grow our own food? Be serious!

What happens to people when nation wide panic strikes?
Oh the government will take care of us. Really???

This likely event will destroy more lives than an enemy attack.

Then add the possibility of "ebola" and "enterovirus" and no drugs available at any cost.
We are being warned....and we are not listening!

Just saying, Indiana Bob

[rick]

Hello I-Bob


Ebola will be a most useful solution for the reduction of the population, this will allow those who remain to be controlled by the government much easier.

I was reading on this thread I believe, that when Christ returns, He will be dealing with a smaller number of people than there are now..... ( not saying that statement is scriptural )

The way things are going in this world, death may be a blessing although we consider death to be an enemy of the human race.

Anyways, its all in the plan of God, whatever the potter has in mind we must go through that which He planed for our lives . 

[Ian 155]

There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.

Ray addressed this in his paper, he writes..

"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"

And

"God is describing through Isaiah a great and high wall that will collapse because of a "FALLING BREACH" up on the wall. Now then, who has ever heard of a stone wall or tower falling down because some stones came loose or broke out higher UP on the wall. The breach would merely fall down and have virtually no effect on the wall beneath it. Yet with the World Trade Towers, in both cases, it was a breach high up on the walls that brought down the entire Towers. Just as Isaiah prophesied."


When Isaiah wrote this prophecy he wasn't prophesying about any other towers falling in the history of the world. He was describing the twin towers that collapsed in America on September 11, 2001.
 
Comment as Ray would often say "OH Really"!

Ray believed it. I believe it.

Yes Sir, Isaiah said that the towers of Greed,Corruption,Envy,Deceit, Lust and Pride,would come down however,he also said, these towers exist only in a certain population group, namely Americans, specifically "New Yorkers".

Don't forget to slip "Twin" in there, perhaps next to it add in 11 Sept. 

Now that Twin towers have come down, we can comfortably delete this prophecy from Isaiah,  that is what you are saying, yes ?

[Rene]

I was reading on this thread I believe that when Christ returns He will be dealing with a smaller number of people than there is now.

There are comments made in threads that are not always supported by scripture.  Please be careful in repeating or interpreting statements that could be misleading to others.

René

[lareli]

There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.

Ray addressed this in his paper, he writes..

"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"

And

"God is describing through Isaiah a great and high wall that will collapse because of a "FALLING BREACH" up on the wall. Now then, who has ever heard of a stone wall or tower falling down because some stones came loose or broke out higher UP on the wall. The breach would merely fall down and have virtually no effect on the wall beneath it. Yet with the World Trade Towers, in both cases, it was a breach high up on the walls that brought down the entire Towers. Just as Isaiah prophesied."


When Isaiah wrote this prophecy he wasn't prophesying about any other towers falling in the history of the world. He was describing the twin towers that collapsed in America on September 11, 2001.
 
Comment as Ray would often say "OH Really"!

Ray believed it. I believe it.

Yes Sir, Isaiah said that the towers of Greed,Corruption,Envy,Deceit, Lust and Pride,would come down however,he also said, these towers exist only in a certain population group, namely Americans, specifically "New Yorkers".

Don't forget to slip "Twin" in there, perhaps next to it add in 11 Sept. 

Now that Twin towers have come down, we can comfortably delete this prophecy from Isaiah,  that is what you are saying, yes ?

No that's not what I'm saying... But you already knew that.

If deleting scriptures is your thing then delete away! That's not what I said nor is it what Ray said. Rays paper was a warning and he knew many people wouldn't believe it.

[Ian 155]

"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"

So we can delete this, now that Isaiah's prophecy has taken place ?

1 cor 13 v8 - the gift that Isaiah had, is now done away with since 2002? that is concerning this particular prophecy.

Once a prophecy is fulfilled we no longer have use of it?? hope you can see what Im saying ...

I believe the truth is ...

Christ is the fulfillment, he brings our towers down,these towers are huge obstacles in our growth (idols) and they must come down. So you could reference the literal carnage that happened on 11 Sept to what is spiritually happening to those elected - like I said there have been many towers that have come down Literally,Its a great wonder how the tower of pizza still stands 

"tear down this temple and in/within three days, I will raise it"
Jesus was not referring to the literal ,Physical temple.

Rome however, did bring it down many years later (I stand corrected on this one) It is still awaiting real estate to be built again.

by My saying "that is what you mean ,Yes?" Im saying do you think that prophecy made 3000 + years ago only manifested in 2002 ?or is there a greater meaning and has it been manifesting in folks throughout  time?

All of these Towers point to Jesus, Starting with The tower of Babel I believe these towers symbolize mans works to gain access to the kingdom, (going to church,tithing,doing good,being humble,obeying the commands),which we know cannot happen,one has to enter by the gate, one cannot "jump the wall"

These towers that came down on 11 Sept represented Wealth and prosperity and power, literally [An obvious trait of the false church] - they also, now that they are down,seem to have represented Greed and Lust and deceit .[An equally  obvious trait of the false church]

Spiritually these things are in us and they must out.

Which tower is next ...the one in Nigeria ??

 

[rick]

Hello Ian,

I see what your saying, its all quite profound to me . Thanks man.             

[lareli]

"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"

So we can delete this, now that Isaiah's prophecy has taken place ?

1 cor 13 v8 - the gift that Isaiah had, is now done away with since 2002? that is concerning this particular prophecy.

Once a prophecy is fulfilled we no longer have use of it?? hope you can see what Im saying ...

I believe the truth is ...

Christ is the fulfillment, he brings our towers down,these towers are huge obstacles in our growth (idols) and they must come down. So you could reference the literal carnage that happened on 11 Sept to what is spiritually happening to those elected - like I said there have been many towers that have come down Literally,Its a great wonder how the tower of pizza still stands 

"tear down this temple and in/within three days, I will raise it"
Jesus was not referring to the literal ,Physical temple.

Rome however, did bring it down many years later (I stand corrected on this one) It is still awaiting real estate to be built again.

by My saying "that is what you mean ,Yes?" Im saying do you think that prophecy made 3000 + years ago only manifested in 2002 ?or is there a greater meaning and has it been manifesting in folks throughout  time?

All of these Towers point to Jesus, Starting with The tower of Babel I believe these towers symbolize mans works to gain access to the kingdom, (going to church,tithing,doing good,being humble,obeying the commands),which we know cannot happen,one has to enter by the gate, one cannot "jump the wall"

These towers that came down on 11 Sept represented Wealth and prosperity and power, literally [An obvious trait of the false church] - they also, now that they are down,seem to have represented Greed and Lust and deceit .[An equally  obvious trait of the false church]

Spiritually these things are in us and they must out.

Which tower is next ...the one in Nigeria ??

Isaiahs prophecy hasn't taken place as much as it is still taking place.. I think? I mean.. Isaiah 30 is about the end of the age and beginning of a new. Its not a single event. I think what Ray was warning about was that the towers falling on 9/11 was attested to in Isaiah but it was a "symbol of disaster to come".

I am only speaking my thoughts now and I don't know whether or not my thoughts are right.. but I think Rays paper was a warning that the time period of transition from one age to the next as prophesied in Isaiah 30 is unfolding now.. You show how the "towers" are many things in our minds/spirit. I see what you're saying. As Ray said in the paper, prophecy is dual and often multi-layered, so could it be that both perspectives are true?

When Ray said no other towers fit the prophecy, he was talking about towers coming down due to a "high breach" right? How does that square with towers of greed, lust, etc.? And have there been other physical towers that collapsed from a breach high up?

You mention geographical location as if the twin towers falling only affected America.. It has effected the entire world and still does more and more every day I would say. And Ray addressed that point in the paper also, saying that God will judge the Christian nations first, but it wont end there and God will judge the rest of the nations too, but only after He has used them as a club.. Just not first because judgment begins with the house of God and the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the Israel of God.

What about "the day of great slaughter" is this in our minds also? Doesn't scripture say that, no flesh would remain had God not cut short those days, speaking of this same transition period? So isn't this physical? Or at least dual with a physical fulfillment since we know prophecy is dual?

[lareli]

Folks,
Another coming fall or crash would be the fall and ultimate crash of the "almighty" dollar; the world's currency.

What will ordinary folks in the U. S. do when most goods and services are closed to the public for lack of payment!??

We don't have to be physically attacked by foreign invaders in order to collapse from within. When the weight of Federal Debt. falls upon the 100,000,000 who actually have jobs and pay taxes the other 230,000,000 will have no one to support them. The Fed can print more money, but inflation will run rampant and bread may cost hundreds of dollars. Remember the example of Germany in 1930 along with the U.S. in our own deep depression.

Only now we have credit cards as our currency and how will you buy food when your credit limit needs to rise to $100,000.00 and your job pays $3,000 per month?

What will happen is that money will be hoarded and will not circulate and businesses that depend upon money [credit] moving or circulating in order to keep the business alive, will DIE.
Doctors and staff need to feed their families too, they cannot work for nothing. Hospitals will close.
Walmart a store that makes billions on a 4% margin of profit will close and lay off the folks who need jobs the most. Trucking companies will not haul food from Mexico and California to the Midwest for nothing, how will we eat? Grow our own food? Be serious!

What happens to people when nation wide panic strikes?
Oh the government will take care of us. Really???

This likely event will destroy more lives than an enemy attack.

Then add the possibility of "ebola" and "enterovirus" and no drugs available at any cost.
We are being warned....and we are not listening!

Just saying, Indiana Bob

Hi bob. I agree with your assessment but my question is what is anyone supposed to do with a warning? Your post here and also Rays paper are warnings but with no solution.

Some are hearing the warnings but what are they supposed to do with it? The only thing I read in the towers paper as far as what to do about the warning is where Ray says..

If America doesn’t return to God and repent of her national and individual sins, America is going down, and nothing is going to stop it. Nero fiddled while Rome burned, and our great seers fiddle their messages of "deceit and SMOOTH things," while America is ready to go down in flames. ‘Me thinks’ Washington will also fiddle while America burns.

He gives instructions for 'America' to repent as the way to avoid the judgement that he's warning about. So are we just supposed to repent? Then what? Since America as a whole has not repented nor changed course, the scenario you posted or judgement in another form will continue. Do we 'look up' when it all hits the fan, knowing our redemption is near? Should we pray that we may be found worthy to escape the wrath of His judgments? Should we be preparing our hearts and spirits to endure whatever lies ahead? Should we examine ourselves day and night so that when His judgments are upon us it will be cause for excitement and not fear? So that we can approach His coming with confidence and not hide ourselves like Adam and Eve in the garden?

[John from Kentucky]

This Topic is an example of what happens when the Scriptures are disregarded regarding the need for two witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth.

Does anyone have at least two Scriptures to back up any opinions or statements?

[lareli]

by My saying "that is what you mean ,Yes?" Im saying do you think that prophecy made 3000 + years ago only manifested in 2002 ?or is there a greater meaning and has it been manifesting in folks throughout time?

To answer your second question,
Perhaps throughout time and dealing with the elect spiritually. Sure I accept that.

To answer your first question,
Ray certainly thought so. There's a whole section on this in his paper. He wrote that this prophecy was not for Isaiah's day but for a future day.. The end of the age specifically. The time for the elect to be judged first has to end sometime and the time for the rest of the world to be judged has to begin sometime. I think Rays towers paper shows we are in that time.

[Ian 155]

Largely,I hear you and I believe that this pointed to a future event as most of the "shadows" do In fact every single word must be handled with great care .

I must admit I have only glanced over the towers paper ....as I kinda said to myself or felt, this did not line up with Rays teaching in comparison to other papers he wrote, I really felt this understanding or interpretation kinda strange...I will make an effort to go thru it properly however if I get disturbed by somthing I read I dont usually continue.

I can only say what I used to experience in the word and what I experience now.

In a particular church I went to everyone used to get upbeat on prosperity scriptures (including me ) I mean they all in one accord started speaking in tongues ,Yes Lord ,come now, this was on  hearing scriptures like I will surely bless you ,I am coming to help you they would read scriptures in Duet 28 an and you had to parrot them (confess them aloud )this would go something like this, "I decree I am blessed in the basket I am blessed in the barn, blessed in the city blessed in the country yes God Said It so WE ARE BLESSED Hallelujah",
Yes AND amen GOD DID SAY THESE THINGS LITERALLY.

Likewise healing, he (Jesus) was sickly so we could be healed... he took all our sickness on himself now we walk free complete "sick free" I used to declare this..... even over Ray at one time (then John sorted me out) Not realising that the biggest cancer is spiritual cancer ...

 >>> Now,present day, to me.... these prophetic scriptures mean something different when you line up the new testament they are spiritual blessings instead of great literal wealth,If you have clothes on your back and some food every day be ye happy/content see what I mean?If one is sick he/she must go to the elders :those who have been thru more than what I have {and the prayer of faith would take care of that spiritual sickness} "Physician heal yourself" takes on a different meaning

So yes the physical/literal towers came down... seeing that you were led to read this paper perhaps you are going to notice some "Spiritual" towers in your life, coming down.

God Bless

I added this below in response to your questions,

Regarding the day of great slaughter ...this pertains to the enemies of God or those things that are in Gods children that are preventing them gaining access to the kingdom - these things (the unbelief,the spiritual adulteries, the spiritual pansy (timid) in us are going to be slaughtered.... or it could at this time, in your mind, be a huge massacre in a huge field with bodies and limbs everywhere 

'When Ray said no other towers fit the prophecy, he was talking about towers coming down due to a "high breach" right? How does that square with towers of greed, lust, etc.? And have there been other physical towers that collapsed from a breach high up?'
 
I think Ray would admit that this is spiritual as well - one could say "meat not milk" lust of the flesh and of the eyes and Pride of life are not acceptable to our God look up in 1 john ,these represent a Breach even a high breach- spiritual fornication ,adultery,fear (these could be "lukewarm" traits)-

We however are commanded NOT TO FEAR - or FEAR NOT. why because "unless the Lord builds the house The labourers (tower builders) labour in vain"we cannot do anything about it, God will build his temple His WAY...so I now need faith to have the trust in God, that these things happening in me or to me, that are seemingly disastrous are in fact for good not evil - to see this, takes faith.

The flesh of kings-our high minded Carnal state's, will surely be given to the Fowl of the air (dark forces in High places)these things will be devoured and Our God uses the adversary to do this.

You, Gods elect, will see these things happen in your lives and in your family, if God is choosing you - "for he is my servant and I will show him how much he must suffer for my name sake"

Please note that we have a Creator who is above the "creature" we need to worship the Creator he will shew us great things, I speak as I hear and have the scripture as a witness in any statements I have made

You and your house hold shall be saved...When the towers fall.

[lareli]

Ian I was wrong when I said that when Isaiah prophesied the towers falling that he was talking about none other than the twin towers. That's not what Ray wrote or meant. I was mistaken. My bad for any confusion.

[Ian 155]

Ian I was wrong when I said that when Isaiah prophesied the towers falling that he was talking about none other than the twin towers. That's not what Ray wrote or meant. I was mistaken. My bad for any confusion.

Hey Largeli, no sweat we all learning