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Author Topic: General Questions  (Read 12669 times)

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Mike Gagne

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2014, 01:29:16 AM »

Thanks.

So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies.  Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh.  My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol).  Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies.  I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.

To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:

When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?

Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.

Zander, a lot of your questions about the Resurrection can be answered by reading ray's papers.

Revelation says the "Sea will be no more," while this can be and is indeed a spiritual saying--The sea of humanity will be no more, the carnal God hating sea of humanity. It could also be literal; That is, the sea will vanish to provide room for the billions and billions of humans that will be resurrected. I'm speculating on the second more literal interpretation but I hope you understand that your questions have answers, you just need to study these things and most of them are already explained to you by ray in an eloquent and easy to understand manner.

God be with you,
Alex
ok Alex I see that if you need the Book of Revelation to be literal then for you its literal?........but if anybody else needs it to be literal then you jump all over them and tell them who they are using scriptures and you yourself contradict what you say, lol I don't get it...Quote from: Mike Gagne on October 25, 2014, 02:01:00 AM
    ?  The number of those who are sealed , 144.000 , does LRay talk on this number? Is that the number of how many are the elect?  Is this a literal number? Can numbers be symbols? If we can't add or take away would that make this number mean what it says 144.000?  Can we get the truth of this number from the word?

Hey Mike,

This is not literal. Remember revelations was "SIGNIFIED" to John and that Christ's words are "SPIRIT."

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."....                         Okay Alex I won't  use the scriptures to say anything you, P.S Alex it is the Book of Revelation, not revelations!!  Oh ya Jesus said to pray for those who persecute you, May God bless you Alex and his will be done in your life!!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 01:38:22 AM by Mike Gagne »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2014, 01:24:59 AM »

Thanks.

So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies.  Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh.  My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol).  Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies.  I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.

To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:

When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?

Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.

Zander, a lot of your questions about the Resurrection can be answered by reading ray's papers.

Revelation says the "Sea will be no more," while this can be and is indeed a spiritual saying--The sea of humanity will be no more, the carnal God hating sea of humanity. It could also be literal; That is, the sea will vanish to provide room for the billions and billions of humans that will be resurrected. I'm speculating on the second more literal interpretation but I hope you understand that your questions have answers, you just need to study these things and most of them are already explained to you by ray in an eloquent and easy to understand manner.

God be with you,
Alex
ok Alex I see that if you need the Book of Revelation to be literal then for you its literal?........but if anybody else needs it to be literal then you jump all over them and tell them who they are using scriptures and you yourself contradict what you say, lol I don't get it...Quote from: Mike Gagne on October 25, 2014, 02:01:00 AM
    ?  The number of those who are sealed , 144.000 , does LRay talk on this number? Is that the number of how many are the elect?  Is this a literal number? Can numbers be symbols? If we can't add or take away would that make this number mean what it says 144.000?  Can we get the truth of this number from the word?

Hey Mike,

This is not literal. Remember revelations was "SIGNIFIED" to John and that Christ's words are "SPIRIT."

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.".....

Okay Alex I won't  use the scriptures to say anything you,
P.S Alex it is the Book of Revelation, not revelations!!

Hmm, I sense a lot of hostility comming from you mike and I can't figure out why.

I don't even think you asked me a question in the post you made so I'm not sure what to say to you other than perhaps you mis-interpreted my original response to Zander?

I'll bold and highlight something that I emphasized.

Notice that I admitted I was speculating and truth be told I don't like the literal interpretations of revelation for reasons you pointed out through quoting a responce I made to you: That revelation was signified to John and that Christ's words are spirit.

You are absolutely correct in saying that it is "revelation" and not "revelationS." I suppose its an old habit that hasn't died yet.

In Christ,
Alex
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Rick

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2014, 12:10:46 PM »

Rom 14:3  The person who will eat anything is not to despise the one who doesn't; while the one who eats only vegetables is not to pass judgment on the one who will eat anything; for God has accepted that person.  ;)
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Kat

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2014, 12:35:25 PM »


It seems to me that just as the church want to see everything literal, but we don't want to just see everything spiritual either. Yes the parables that Christ spoke of portray a higher spiritual meaning than just the literal story, but this literal world is very real and plays an important part in God's plan. I think we can get so caught up in looking for the spiritual aspect of things that we may forget that the physical comes first.

1Cor 15:46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

What I'm trying to say is that this natural world was made to serve a very grand purpose and it is a very delicate balance to see the spiritual teachings in the physical... but there is still the physical/natural first.

One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?

Mat 8:11  And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:

It's all perfectly planned and there is no doubt that it will all work out in an organized way, without any confusion. I think we all will be amazed to see how everything will be done in such a perfect way to meet every need and show how awesome our God is.

1Cor 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ian 155

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2014, 02:50:33 PM »

Quote from: Kat link=topic=15860.msg142695#msg142695  date=1414942525

1Cor 15:46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.


Hi Kat

I'm inclined to believe that this statement of Paul is describing the order of things where-

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. ....

and

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Tells us how it is.

If one is, for instance,to stay carnal , one will not comprehend the truth (enter the kingdom)

What are your thoughts ?
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Kat

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2014, 04:25:43 PM »

Hi Ian,

Quote
If one is, for instance,to stay carnal , one will not comprehend the truth (enter the kingdom)

It is true that while in the flesh there will remain a degree of carnality, as Paul spoke of.

Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23  but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

But it is through this physical flesh that we experience first (eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), and yes the carnal person has no spiritual life. It's all just a temporary existence, like all animal life "...What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away" (Jas 4:14).

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

It is while we are yet carnal physical being that we must repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. But as Paul was saying we will not reach perfection while in this flesh.

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is while in this physical body (now for the elect, in the next age for the rest) that we learn what sin is and through overcoming the carnality of the flesh that the 'new man/woman' comes to life in us and begins the process of being put right with God.

Rom 6:4  We were buried therefore with Him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have become united with him in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection;
v. 6  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Rom 6:7  for He that hath died is justified from sin.
Rom 6:8  But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him;

Physical life comes first, carnality is a must to learn about and experience evil. When God starts His work in us we begin to overcome this carnal flesh, but only by the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) indwelling. "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," now the elect have only been given a guarantee/promise/earnest..

Eph 1:13  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14  which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of His glory.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 10:10:15 PM by Kat »
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microlink

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2014, 10:13:56 PM »


One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,
I agree with most of your post and appreciate it. But I am now uncertain who will rule with Christ during the Millennium. We know the resurrected saints will be with Him as kings and priests. Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh?  Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?

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Kat

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2014, 11:12:06 PM »


Hi microlink,
Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh?  Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?

I thought I had included this Scripture, well here it is now.

Mat 8:11  And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:

We know that those who died before the resurrection of Christ will not be in the first resurrection, those few that are will be given glorified spiritual bodies.

1Cor 15:42-44  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

But only the few with the Spirit of Christ indwelling at His rreturn will receive this most grand of all human hopes. All those before Christ who died in faith, that we see in Hebrews 11, will not receive this at Christ's return, they never knew the Christ of the NT, will not partake in the promise.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise,
v.40  God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

So what are we to think by this next Scripture that Christ spoke?

Mat 8:11  And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IN the kingdom of heaven.

Well the kingdom - New Jerusalem will "come down out of heaven," this is the elect, it descends to the earth where they will be the spiritual rulers with Christ on the earth.

Rev 3:12  He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Matt 6:10  Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

So what is Christ saying about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being 'in' the kingdom? Maybe the physical aspect of it's government? Well there is Scripture about some being cast into "outer darkness," so maybe those that died in 'faith' are not cast out of the kingdom/government of God. Certainly it's a big difference than the elect, but still these were those that knew God and faithfully served Him in the OT. Certainly all in the second resurrection will into the LoF, that is the judgment of Christ and the elect, as it says "that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2014, 11:19:41 PM »


One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,
I agree with most of your post and appreciate it. But I am now uncertain who will rule with Christ during the Millennium. We know the resurrected saints will be with Him as kings and priests. Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh?  Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?

Hi Microlink,

Ray pointed out that King David died an unrepentant sinner as his final words were "kill my enemies and make it bloody."

1 King 2:5-9 "Moreover thou knowest also what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, and what he did to the two captains of the hosts of Israel, unto Abner the son of Ner, and unto Amasa the son of Jether, whom he slew, and shed the blood of war in peace, and put the blood of war upon his girdle that was about his loins, and in his shoes that were on his feet.Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace.But shew kindness unto the sons of Barzillai the Gileadite, and let them be of those that eat at thy table: for so they came to me when I fled because of Absalom thy brother. And, behold, thou hast with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim: but he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I sware to him by the Lord, saying, I will not put thee to death with the sword.  Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. "

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

We also have several different pieces of scripture in the new testament that show us that the prophets and kings would not be made perfect without us (the gentiles).

Hebrews 11:13 These [The patriarchs and prophets of old] all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40 "And these [The patriarchs and prophets of old] all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Romans 11:19-21 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

Romans 11:24-26 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Matthew 11:11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

We are also told that when Sodom is returned to her former estate then will Israel too be returned to her former estate.

Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou [Jerusalem] and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."

Ezekiel: 61-63 "Then you shall remember your ways, and be ashamed, when you shall receive your sisters, your elder [Samaria] and your younger [SODOM]: and I will give them [Samaria and Sodom] unto you for daughters, but not by your covenant. And I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall KNOW [for the first time] that I am the Lord: That you may remember, and be confounded, and never open your mouth any more because of your shame, when I am PACIFIED [make atonement, to pardon, to placate, to cover, to condone] TOWARD THEE [Jerusalem AND her sisters, Samaria and Sodom] for all that you have done, saith the Lord God."

Ezekiel 37:1-6 "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

Ezekiel 37:11 "Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:[/b] behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts."

Only those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death:

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 21:8 "...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Those that overcome are those that endure unto the end. The ones that are saved.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

There are many more scriptures as well that can be added to this, its one big circle!

Hope this helps some.

God bless,
Alex

Edit: I made this post while Kat was posting, sorry if there is some repeated information here. Was just trying to help :)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 11:23:54 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2014, 11:24:32 PM »

A side note on the scripture John 6:63.

Rays Replies to 'Flesh that profits nothing?'
on: March 17, 2006, 09:51:28 AM

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth
nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are
spirit, and [they] are life. [John 6:63]

Does our flesh profit nothing?  Was the design of mans physical body and his experiences to mean nothing?

[Ray's reply]

Sometimes familiar words have a way of prejudicing our minds. In a Scripture such as these where our Lord states that "the flesh PROFITS nothing," and we feel immediately that, why sure it does, isn't that the whole purpose of our physical life, existence, and experience? To be PROFITED by the whole thing? Yes, but that is not specifically what Jesus is stating.

Jesus did not say that there is no value to our physical experience. What He said was that the experience itself is NOT THE PROFIT ITSELF.

I am sure that most read this verse thinking Jesus said this: "...the flesh PRODUCES nothing." As though nothing valuable comes out of our experience in the flesh, when that is decidedly not what Jesus is saying.


The word translated "profits" is from the Greek word "apheleo" and has a primary meaning of "BENEFIT." It is virtually always translated with a negative connotation:

"what is a man PROFITED, if he gain the whole world..." (Matt. 16:26

"Pilate sat that he could PREVAIL nothing..." (Matt. 27:24).

"and was nothing BETTERED, but rather..." (Mark 5:26).

"...the flesh PROFITS nothing...." (John 6:63).

"Perceive you how you PREVAIL nothing.." (John 12:19).

"For what is a man ADVANTAGED...." (Luke 9:25).

"...it PROFITS me nothing..." (I Cor. 13:3).

"...the word preached did not PROFIT them" (Heb. 4:2).

"...which did not PROFIT them...." (Heb. 13:9).

Next notice that even Christ Himself does not profit some:

"Christ shall PROFIT you nothing...." (Gal. 5:2).

And so what Jesus is clearly stating here is that the FLESH (or any of the other things mentioned above including Christ Himself), are not in and by themselves a BENEFIT (profit) to us until others facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS.

This is why Jesus asked: "What is a man PROFITED if he shall gain the whole world [lots of flesh], and lose his own soul?" (Matt. 16:25).

There is no PROFIT/BENEFIT in the flesh itself, only what comes OUT OF IT. And once you are OUT OF IT (as out of the world), the world is of  NO profit/benefit to you.

Maybe our biggest spiritual example of this is: "Come OUT of her, My people...." (Rev. 18:4). If there is "profit" to be had from being IN Babylon, then perhaps we should all go BACK IN?  No, Babylon is about as fleshly and worldly as anything could ever be, and Babylon BENEFITS NOTHING, so "Come OUT OF HER My people...." The BENEFITS are IN CHRIST, OUT OF Babylon, out of the flesh and the world.

Hope this helps your understanding,

God be with you,

Ray
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Ian 155

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2014, 06:09:52 AM »

A side note on the scripture John 6:63.

Rays Replies to 'Flesh that profits nothing?'
on: March 17, 2006, 09:51:28 AM


And so what Jesus is clearly stating here is that the FLESH (or any of the other things mentioned above including Christ Himself), are not in and by themselves a BENEFIT (profit) to us until others facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS.


That is a pretty bold statement,if I read it according to my understanding of the word,seeing we are complete..... only in him.
(Or is he saying we have need of that (death/flesh)experience,in order to obtain kingdom mentality)
Carnality is absolutely and unequivocally, Death (NO PROFIT) or do you think he is saying death, leads to profit, and is the only factor?

What other factors are needed?

 
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Kat

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2014, 10:27:34 AM »


Hi Ian,

Well think about the church, they have Christ, so to speak, but what profit/benefit does that produce for them? Notice the last comment from Ray there... "Babylon is about as fleshly and worldly as anything could ever be, and Babylon BENEFITS NOTHING, so "Come OUT OF HER My people...."The BENEFITS are IN CHRIST, OUT OF Babylon, out of the flesh and the world."

I put in bold and underlined what the benefit of this life is ultimately producing, being "IN Christ." And this next comment from Ray explains why... "There is no PROFIT/BENEFIT in the flesh itself, only what comes OUT OF IT. And once you are OUT OF IT (as out of the world), the world is of  NO profit/benefit to you."

The church is worldly and they know 'of' Christ, but are not 'in' Him, the rest of the world have not even reached that far. So I think the "other facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS" that Ray mentioned would be when the Holy Spirit becomes indwelling and then the spiritual lessons begin for a person, not before from these life experiences. I think then we can even reflect on past life experiences and learn from them too.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2014, 05:40:54 PM »

Ray is simply in simple language explaining the meaning of this verse and this word "profit" (and by extension, what it doesn't mean).  No gobbledegook.
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Ian 155

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2014, 06:05:30 PM »

There is a spanner in the works here,either the flesh profits Nothing, or it profits, I cant kinda make up my own explanation, there are no "grey areas"

I notice an unregenerate David, found benefits (in the Lord) psalm 103:2 so perhaps the transition process from the Flesh is in fact a Benefit.Yet his(Davids) then state,is, of no profit yet, he sees profit.

The Physical body (no profit) becomes a spiritual temple (profit)

Im not being difficult ,


Ian
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Rick

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2014, 10:04:53 PM »

Hello Ian,

we start off carnal and die carnal donít we, does anyone get converted in this age? When we see Christ as He is then we shall be like Him.

Rom 11:32  For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.

Rom 7:15  I do not understand what I do; for I don't do what I would like to do, but instead I do what I hate.

Rom 7:19  I don't do the good I want to do; instead, I do the evil that I do not want to do.


Rom 12:2  Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. Then you will be able to know the will of God---what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect.


Rom, 12;2 says for us not to be conformed to this world, then it says, but let God transform us inwardly by a complete change of our mind.

Is it not a ongoing process of becoming spiritual and its completion is after the resurrection for Godís elect only then the rest of humanity will learn righteousness? 

My question is when one of Godís elect dies doesnít  he or she  still have carnality residing within them ? So, what does God do at the resurrection to make us completely spiritual?

What we do know about Godís elect is Rom 8:1  There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus.  ???
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Mike Gagne

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2014, 11:13:48 PM »

 Hi Rick! I found these scriptures...And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart, so they will obey my decrees and regulations. Then they will truly be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekiel‬ 11‬:19-20‬ NLT)......Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel‬ 36‬:25-27‬ KJV).... It seems to me that in the resurrection God gives us a cleansing, a new heart and a new spirit that causes us to walk in his statutes!!  Maybe that's  were we could fit in this scripture...Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1 Corinthians‬ 15‬:46‬ KJV) 😊
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 11:16:50 PM by Mike Gagne »
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Kat

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2014, 12:13:08 AM »


What we do know about Godís elect is Rom 8:1  There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus.  ???

Keep reading in in Romans 8 and it explains how/why there is "no condemnation" for the elect in this life, the Spirit of Christ indwelling has given them spiritual Life.

Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

My question is when one of Godís elect dies doesnít  he or she  still have carnality residing within them ? So, what does God do at the resurrection to make us completely spiritual?

Well as long as we are flesh and blood we certainly are subject to the pulls of the carnal flesh... yes the Spirit indwelling is the Helper/Comforter to teach and train and prepare the elect. But there certainly is a tremendous change for the elect at resurrection.

1Cor 15:42  So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
v. 43  It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
v. 44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The elect will be given a "spiritual body" no longer subject to the pulls of the flesh. They will also be "raised in glory," made perfect and become one/united with Christ and the Father and then have the Spirit without measure like Christ does (John 3:34). What a incomprehensible glorious state of being, as Paul put it so well.

1Cor 2:9  But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
v. 10  But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Hi Mike,

Actually I believe that is what happens in this life now for the elect, that is dying to self (1Co 15:31), it is to take on the mind of Christ now.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,

Eph 4:22  For you ought to put off the old man (according to your way of living before) who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.
v. 24  And you should put on the new man, who according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

And it will be the same process in the next age of dying to self first while in the physical body, that is their second death (Rev 20:6), then and only then will the world learn righteousness.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Rick

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2014, 01:13:18 AM »

Hello Mike,

Exactly Mike, thatís how I understand it to be, when God gives us a new heart and a new spirit and until then, we are carnal minded.

Thanks Mike for bringing out those scripture,

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them

And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart, so they will obey my decrees and regulations.

.Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


These scriptures you brought out are awesome, it only confirms to me what Iíve started to believe from what I been learning here.

Iím not responsible for what I do, Iíve never made an uncaused choice but I am accountable to God for the things I do because I enjoyed the pleasure of them.
 
Iím a carnal minded person learning wonderful truths of our God because God called me and caused me to learn His truths. In this life I will always have a carnal mind, I pray to God as time passes by my mind becomes less natural and more spiritual,

Like God says, ( A new heart also will I give you ) when God does that for me, Iíll no longer be carnal but spiritual.

Thanks once again Mike, God bless you.  :)
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Mike Gagne

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2014, 01:21:40 AM »

Hi Kat! I was thinking that it would be in the ressurection !  I can look back and see how God has changed my heart! And I also see that everyday there are judgements for me, every time I do what is not right I am held accountable! It seems like it will never end. it starts right when I leave the house and doesn't end until I sleep and sometimes He wakes me up and it's starts again! He constantly has my mind on what I am doing wrong! I see the beast in me and I wander does he totally destroy it before I die? Can God totally change my thinking to be Christ like in this life time?  I new Paul said he finished his race! LRay said at some point it just stop! I think Paul said that some time after some 17 yrs!  I don't recall hearing LRay stating how long it when on for!  Well I know there is a process and I believe in my heart that the carnal mind will not inherit the Kingdom of God and that I live in this natural body and it will die and I will get a spiritual body and all the benifits that go with it! I guess that circumcision by Christ will be complete before I die! Thank you Kat your answer always get me thinking! 😀
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Mike Gagne

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2014, 01:47:25 AM »

Hi Rick! I also see what Kat is saying!  I used those scriptures because I sometimes think that it is impossible to change my evil heart!  But as I look back I can see some fruit of the spirit in me, that is comparing to how I was. Yes sometimes I think it is impossible to change the carnal mind because it is enmity to God, but I have to remember that are God is a cunsuming fire that burns out the carnal mind. Sorry Rick if I have caused confusion, I think what I am saying is that it's hard for me to see God doing this now,because I fall short so often! I guess if I look back then I can see that God has given me a new heart now! I am not the same! Thank God for Lrays teaching us to look back so we can see the spiritual! I see now that yes I am a new creation in Christ! The old me is really being destroyed/cleansed. And I am trying to do His statutes!  Well this certainly has help me and I hope it helps Rick God bless you 😊
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