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[lilitalienboi16]

Ray said often that sin should not REIGN in us.

Romans 6:11-13 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

The spirit of God indwelling compels us, inspires us, moves us forward, to be dead to the body and alive in the spirit that we would not serve the pulls of the flesh. So then we crucify the body and the carnal mind with it.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:1-12 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

So to Kat's point,

Romans 8:6-7 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity [Deep Seated Hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus"

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

In Christ,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Ian,

we start off carnal and die carnal don’t we, does anyone get converted in this age? When we see Christ as He is then we shall be like Him.

Rom 11:32  For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.

Rom 7:15  I do not understand what I do; for I don't do what I would like to do, but instead I do what I hate.

Rom 7:19  I don't do the good I want to do; instead, I do the evil that I do not want to do.


Rom 12:2  Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. Then you will be able to know the will of God---what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect.


Rom, 12;2 says for us not to be conformed to this world, then it says, but let God transform us inwardly by a complete change of our mind.

Is it not a ongoing process of becoming spiritual and its completion is after the resurrection for God’s elect only then the rest of humanity will learn righteousness? 

My question is when one of God’s elect dies doesn’t  he or she  still have carnality residing within them ? So, what does God do at the resurrection to make us completely spiritual?

What we do know about God’s elect is Rom 8:1  There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus. 

Rick... you asked; Does anyone get converted in this life?

Yes, this is what Christ said to the apostle Peter. Peter did just that after Christ sent him the holy spirit on pentacost.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

And..

John 3:3 Verily, verily I say unto you, except a man be born again… (means spiritually begotten, spiritually converted, spiritually regenerated)… he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Well, We are beggotten again.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ray also says this in one of his audios "When came around Pentecost time though, a whole bunch of them were converted, about 120 of them. But Christ was leading them up to that. He’s probably leading some of us up to that." http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

In Christ,
Alex

[Ian 155]

Thats what Im thinking, all this knowledge and stuff we glean is of No value (benefit) unless we are converted -

[Mike Gagne]

Paul didn't start his ministry until a least 17 yrs after his conversion, and by his writings we can see that he also struggled along with his carnal nature! At conversion you are not changed completely being you have a carnal mind and the flesh to deal with! That's why Jesus comes to us and begins a work in us! It's seems that it took Paul 17 yrs to come to the point where he could say that he finished his race! I can look back and I now know when my conversion happened and I am not the same wicked man I was! I can see the different or new man growing, here a little, there a little ,precept upon precept! And when your in this process it seems like it might never end. Well there's hope for me and that hope is Christ in me the hope of Glory! So here is a question, has anybody been converted and not struggle with the carnal mind acting up and getting in the way of the new creature.....P.S   If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John‬ 1‬:8-10‬ KJV).  I never said sin reigns in me!   Anyhow have a good day everyone!

[Kat]

Hi Mike,

Yesterday I was responding to Rick's question about after we die and the first resurrection, which your response to that is what I believe happens before the elect are resurrected.

Hi Kat! I was thinking that it would be in the ressurection !  I can look back and see how God has changed my heart!

Now today that first comment in your reply "I was thinking that it would be in the resurrection"... you do know that is not in this life, right? All that you say after that applies to what happens in this life for the elect. The first resurrection is when the elect that have died are raised out of the grave and those elect still living join them and are given new spiritual bodies and meet Christ in the air to return and rule on the earth. So my comment were directed toward the next age. Just trying to make it clear where I coming from in my replies.

Paul didn't start his ministry until a least 17 yrs after his conversion, and by his writings we can see that he also struggled along with his carnal nature! At conversion you are not changed completely being you have a carnal mind and the flesh to deal with! That's why Jesus comes to us and begins a work in us! It's seems that it took Paul 17 yrs to come to the point where he could say that he finished his race!

This post where you say "it took Paul 17 yrs to come to the point where he could say that he finished his race."

Yes, when Paul made this statement he was writing from a Roman prison, he was awaiting death, being about to die he knew he had lived his life as a total sacrifice for the sake of the truth, right from when he was knocked down by the blinding light that was Jesus Christ. He knew his work was done "I have finished the race," and he had been faithful "I have kept the faith." So I guess he had no doubt after all he had been through, that he would remain faithful in the last days that he had.

So it's not so much that he or anybody can rest assured they are an elect, accept maybe like Paul when he already knew he was faithful right up to the end.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hello Alex,

Maybe I’m missing something here but my understanding is that anyone who gets converted lives sin free, if king David was converted he would of never said ( make it bloody ).

When God gives us a new heart we then become converted as much as I can tell, when I was in so called Christendom, I was asked more than once ( are you born again ) has the resurrection happen, and I don’t know about it. Lol

If someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for that one to sin because they are converted but if they say they are converted and sin then their actions speak louder than words.
 
I agree God is calling out for Himself a people but if God converts people in this age then what need of God’s grace have we ?

What need of faith have we? But we hope for these things but if we have them already then why would someone hope for what they already have ?

We are involved in an on going process in this age but if we are converted the process is pointless.

God said, let us be making man in our image, when the man becomes converted he is in the image of God.

Thanks for your input Alex, maybe you see more than I but these are my thoughts. 

[Mike Gagne]

Hi Kat! Yes I know when the resurrection is for those who will be the elect! Yes I know that all that happens to those who might be the elect! I also believe that you won't be completely new until that resurrection.....Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Corinthians‬ 15‬:46-54‬ KJV)         My questions are, how many that might be the elect have lived sin free?... How many struggle with the carnal nature?...  This is what I am trying to point out! Does Jesus actually destroy every wrong thought, deed, action, everything wrong that we do and we then live as he lived on this earth in a instant? .... I doubt very much that you don't sin anymore after that moment! Paul new in a instant that Jesus was Lord, and I also doubt that right after that moment he never sinned again! He went through a process and it took time. P.S I will never say that I am the elect! I see that I am in a process and when it's done if God wants,let God call me the true Jew, that's Christ!!😀 lol another P .S there are three questions, it would be nice to get a direct answer to them! Thank you

[John from Kentucky]

Just like all mankind, every one of God's Elect and Chosen are sinners, who sin daily until the day they die.

It is only after the Resurrection to Life, do we no longer sin.

There is a Scripture that says, "There are none righteous, no not one."

Another Scripture says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

And, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."  1John 1:8

[Mike Gagne]

Thank you John!!😀😀 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: Dan 4:35

[Kat]

  My questions are, how many that might be the elect have lived sin free?... How many struggle with the carnal nature?...  This is what I am trying to point out! Does Jesus actually destroy every wrong thought, deed, action, everything wrong that we do and we then live as he lived on this earth in a instant? .... I doubt very much that you are completely free of doing your will and now you only do Gods will at that moment! Paul new in a instant that Jesus was Lord, and I also doubt that right after that moment he never sinned again! He went through a process and it took time. P.S I will never say that I am the elect! I see that I am in a process and when it's done if God wants,let God call me the true Jew, that's Christ!!😀

Here are a few emails... don't forget about the 'FAQ' board.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11607.0.html ----

How Do I Stop Sinning?

Email replies from Ray:

------------------------------------------------------------
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7162.0.html

As for overcoming sin, this is something I am asked nearly daily. We all want to be sin free. This is a life long endeavor. Our first giant victory is when sin no longer "REIGNS over us." But from there, sins continually crop us (often unseen and un-noticed).  God gives His Holy Spirit to only those who obey Him, and no one can obey Him until HE grants one repentance. And then we still continue to suffer in our struggle against sin. God intends for us to fight. This life is spiritual warfare. The battle is never over. You need to cry out to God for the desire, then patience to suffer, and finally the power to overcome it. There is no magic formula. There is no magic prayer.  There is no sowing a seed or buying your way out of carnality. We must struggle and fight and overcome and endure until the end.

God be with you,
 Ray

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4069.0.html

Dear Chad:

        With all due respect, it is not because of a lack of knowledge that your are not having victory over your sins. There comes a time to DO what you already know. However, I will come to your defense by stating that you will not become victorious over most of your sins unless and until God determines that it is now time. I can only speak with authority when it comes to my own life. I had measures of success in overcoming some things virtually the moment I learned the truth concerning them. For example, I quite using the Name of Jesus and God in profanity the week I came to realize how bad it was, and that was forty-five years ago, and I have never slipped up on it even once since then.   

        But the "lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life," are the biggies that God will allow to drag on in one's life until they really get sick of these sins. Some people never get sick of these sins--they LIKE them.  But the "Goodness of God" (Rom. 2:4) can make you repent and abhor these things.  We never conquer every sin as long as we are in the flesh, but we can come to the place that "sin no longer REIGNS over us."  I have no desire to sin. I do not think about sinning. There is nothing in the realm of sin that has any value to me.  I'll let Jesus be my Judge as to how far I have come in overcoming sin.  You have to cry out to God to rescue from sin. You cannot and you will not do it on your own power.

        God be with you,
        Ray 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6922.0.html

Dear J:  You must rid yourself of all the Christian superstition that is still in your consciousness. You can't save yourself, except as God gives you the desire and the power. If sin still has "dominion" over you (See Rom. 6), then God has not yet been victorious in your spiritual life. It doesn't mean that he is finished with you, however.  I continued to sin for years after I KNEW what I was doing was sin. I just deceived myself into being thankful for greasy grace.

    One does not stop all his sinning just because he desires to stop.  I desired to stop, but I couldn't stop. When it was God's time in my life to really repent and stop sinning, then God brought that about. No matter how much power you believe there to be in human will, God will bring you to the place that you will have NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH (Phil. 3:3).  God is going to make you hate your sins real bad before He will grant you victory over them. Be patient--pray and obey till God comes to your aid.

    God be with you,
    Ray

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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2888.0.html

Dear Rob:

You are right, I cannot help you overcome your carnal sins. That is something that
we all have to do between ourselves and God. God is dealing with you and will
continue to deal with you. I cannot change God's timing for what He has in store
for your life.  Those of us who are maybe a little more mature, have all gone
through what you are going through.  That's why the Bible calls us BEASTS. We
often think and act and desire as do BEASTS.  You will not quit sinning until
God deems it time for you to quit, but in the mean time, you will come to hate
your sins, and still will not be able to overcome them. You will cry out to the only
One Who can help you. We all must make our "walk through the valley of the
shadow of death."  It is not a pleasant journey, but to come through it and have
a clean and clear conscious for the first time in your life, is itself quite rewarding.

God be with you,
Ray

[Mike Gagne]

Thanks Kat! Now I see where that FAQ  is ,great another place to frequent!  I just love Lrays teachings.... One does not stop all his sinning just because he desires to stop.  I desired to stop, but I couldn't stop. When it was God's time in my life to really repent and stop sinning, then God brought that about. No matter how much power you believe there to be in human will, God will bring you to the place that you will have NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH (Phil. 3:3).  God is going to make you hate your sins real bad before He will grant you victory over them. Be patient--pray and obey till God comes to your aid.... That's was from LRay. Now I know thats true because I can look back and see some sins God has granted me  repentence to some things still happen and it's just like LRay stated! That's why I say eventually we finish are race! Doesn't Paul say...Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (1 Corinthians‬ 9‬:24‬ KJV)... I told my friend once about my 17yr addiction to meth that when my heart was just sick and tired of it and I just hated being a meth addict,it  was at that point God got my heart right that He could grant me repentence! That's why I know what LRay is saying is true!!

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Alex,

Maybe I’m missing something here but my understanding is that anyone who gets converted lives sin free, if king David was converted he would of never said ( make it bloody ).

When God gives us a new heart we then become converted as much as I can tell, when I was in so called Christendom, I was asked more than once ( are you born again ) has the resurrection happen, and I don’t know about it. Lol

If someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for that one to sin because they are converted but if they say they are converted and sin then their actions speak louder than words.
 
I agree God is calling out for Himself a people but if God converts people in this age then what need of God’s grace have we ?

What need of faith have we? But we hope for these things but if we have them already then why would someone hope for what they already have ?

We are involved in an on going process in this age but if we are converted the process is pointless.

God said, let us be making man in our image, when the man becomes converted he is in the image of God.

Thanks for your input Alex, maybe you see more than I but these are my thoughts. 

Hi Rick,

What I shared with you was scripture. Peter was converted and strengthened his brothers after Pentecost.  Paul was converted along the road to Damascus. So conversion does occur in this life.

Here is an email from ray on this matter concerning the apostles:

Dear Mike:  Do not become discouraged because you are not yet where you desire to be spiritually in your life.  God works differently with different people.  We see it in our daily lives and the the lives of those in the Scriptures.  It took over three years before the Apostles were converted, yet Saul/Paul submitted to God almost instantly after his calling.

        God be with you,

        Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5034.msg39488.html#msg39488

Receiving a new heart is a process that happens over time and will not be completed until we are fully redeemed, saved, overcome, born into the kingdom of God. Ray shows, as do the scriptures, that we are converted when we are begotten anew.

You are confusing begotten (concieved) with begotten (born). The greek language uses the same word for both. So we are CONCEIVED by the holy spirit, converted, when Christ comes and dwells within us, to which we begin putting off the old man, dying to self, being baptized into his death, crucified with him, etc..

We are BORN into the kingdom of God, birthed, born again, when judgement upon us is fully completed and has completed its redeeming work. The elect will be born into the kingdom at the first Resurrection, but they are (as well as the chosen) currently begotten of God. How do I know this? Well besides the verse I shared with you in 1 Peter 1:3, we have these words from Christ:

John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

When you are "born again" (Don't confuse it with "conceived") then you are powerful and invisible like the wind. No one in this life will be like that. So hence we have two different scenarios here and it is the latter (conception) which causes us to be converted.

So those who are converted have a DOWNPAYMENT, a PROMISE, of a future redemption to come.

2Co 1:21-22  Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

So you said that if someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for them to sin. I will tell you that conversion does not equate with being an overcomer. It is merely a step in the process along the way to overcoming, being saved--Salvation.

Here is another email from ray:

Dear Chris:
The Harlot Church consists of ALL unconverted Christians, not just Catholics.
God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2624.msg19752.html#msg19752

And another:

COMMENT:  I'm sorry, but I do not see the connection of your question with Matt. 16:8?  The church IS "A WELL KNOWN AND POPULATED CHURCH."  Christendom is the largest religion in the world--TWO BILLION.  That is, two billion in "name."  How many of them are spiritually converted?  How many believe the half of what Jesus taught?

    After healing thousands and thousands and thousands of people, Jesus had 120 true believers left at the end of His ministry to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:15).  And who ever said that the church was found "on only one web site?"

    God be with you,

    Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2200.msg17727.html#msg17727

This too.

Dear Kemi:
    When you are spiritually converted and have the Holy Spirit of God, you are then "IN Christ" you are IN "The Book of the Life of the Lamb."  Jesus Christ IS THE BOOK OF LIFE!  And there is henceforth "NO CONDEMNATION" toward you ever again (Rom. 8:1).  That is the ultimate place we all want to be.  Etc., etc., etc.
    God be with you,
    Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1468.msg12459.html#msg12459

Interestingly Romans 8:1 reads as follows: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

NOW there is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST. The apostles were converted, they were in Christ, but they were not sinless. They still sinned because we will all sin while trapped in these fleshy bodies. We can be converted though, I believe it absolutely that we can. It is through conversion that we reach that point where "sin no longer reigns (Romans 6:11-13)" in us.

Here's the nail in the coffin as far as what ray taught is concerned:

Dear Bethany:

Absolutely it means that the spirit has no consciousness of its own. This can easily be proved and has been proved millions and millions of times. When a person is knocked out with a blow to the head, there is absolutely no damange to the spirit within man, whatsoever. Yet under this condition person knocked out HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS. He possesses a spirit, but HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS.  His physical body must be "repaired" or "normalized" in some way for consciousness to return.  The spirit may well be keeping the knocked out person alive, but yet, he has no consciousness.

I never said that no spirit has consciousness. OUR spirit has no consciousness. God IS Spirit and God is conscious, but we are NOT GOD. We only have a form of spirit in us to keep us alive. When converted God gives us yet ANOTHER SPIRIT which is called the HOLY Spirit, and it effects out consciousness, but does not keep us conscious at death, as that requires resurrection.

Notice I Cor. 2;11--"For what man man knows the things of a man, except [for] the spirit of man which is IN HIM? even so the thngs of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God [in him]."

It is only when "the spiritof man" is "IN HIM" that he has consciousness and "knows the things of a man."  OUT of him, the spirit of man knows no anything:  "For the living know [when the spirit is still IN man] that they shall die: but the DEAD [when the spirit is returned to God--see Chapt. 3:19-20]  KNOW NOT ANY THING...."  (Ecc. 9:5).

God be with you,

Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2168.msg17408.html#msg17408

God bless,
Alex

[Ian 155]

Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jesus our example was raised from the dead literally (1st the physical)that is not a good example if it does not happen to us now.(spiritually) put your finger in my side may be literal but others can put there finger in our side and see our wounds literally (our testimony)

In all these comments about resurrection are we speaking literal resurrection or spiritual resurrection (new creation) the old has passed (DIED)

Can we be dead yet breath and can we be alive in him and still be breathing.... don't know how to put this otherwise  ... perhaps Im also going Mad

[Kat]

Well Ian, the Scripture never speak of 'spiritual' conversion as resurrection in this life... as Alex just was saying it is "we begin putting off the old man, dying to self, being baptized into his death, crucified with him, etc.."

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
v. 6  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

That Scripture you provided is certainly not talking about 'spiritual' resurrection, but the coming resurrection of the world in the next age, the patriarchs were not converted.

http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html ------------------

The Bible teaches "the Resurrection of the DEAD--dead PEOPLE, not dead bodies:
 
"But as touching (Greek: 'peri,' with respect to, concerning, pertaining to, about, on behalf of, ' the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt. 22:31-32)

Some ignorant theologians use this verse to prove that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never died, since it says "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

For crying out loud, can they not read? In what way? Pertaining to WHAT? With respect to WHAT, is God the God of the living? "But as touching [concerning] THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD...God is the God of the living"! It is only "concerning the resurrection of the DEAD" that God is the God of the living. It is only in "resurrection" that the dead will be once again "living," and God will then be their God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ian 155]

Kat it is a battle for me to explain.... - not sure if its out of fear of sounding Whacked, or if its going to turn what people think they know, on its head...  I have been doing a lot of reading,asking,studies on this subject of resurrection that is "supposed" reserved for "some time" we call "end times",when I'm done, I will put something together and post it as a discussion

reading John 11:1- end & 1Cor 15- end,see what you think, there are many other scriptures but it all started with that one and then a few discussions of late, centered around this topic also got me delving.

I do not think this is as complicated as most find it to be. Crucifiction is separate from Burial which is separate from resurrection.

You quote Rom 6 v 5 -  "Likeness" appears twice,underline them and selah

[Kat]

Ian, I have heard this line of thinking before, that the resurrection is now for the elect, that there is no coming resurrection at the end of the age. That's not the way Ray taught that and I believe this is a false teaching that does lead people astray. Yes the elect are baptized into His death, yes coming up out of the 'spiritual' baptism waters is a resurrection of sorts, but the elect will still physically die and go to the grave to await the final gathering of elect at the 'first resurrection.' The baptism resurrection is only a shadow of the resurrection to Life, being born into the kingdom at the end of this age, when Christ Jesus returns and calls all the elect out of their graves.

In John 11 yes Lazarus was resurrected, that was purely a physical resurrection for a short duration (the rest of his physical life), Jesus had not yet died and there had been no sacrifice for our sin yet at that time. Jesus said in verse 15 it was done for a witness of who He was, so that they would believe.

Here is an excerpt from the article #E. Hell: 'Hades and the Second Death.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm --------------------------

But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
 
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection"  (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."
 
"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Kat it is a battle for me to explain.... - not sure if its out of fear of sounding Whacked, or if its going to turn what people think they know, on its head...  I have been doing a lot of reading,asking,studies on this subject of resurrection that is "supposed" reserved for "some time" we call "end times",when I'm done, I will put something together and post it as a discussion

reading John 11:1- end & 1Cor 15- end,see what you think, there are many other scriptures but it all started with that one and then a few discussions of late, centered around this topic also got me delving.

I do not think this is as complicated as most find it to be. Crucifiction is separate from Burial which is separate from resurrection.

You quote Rom 6 v 5 -  "Likeness" appears twice,underline them and selah

Ian, If I understand correctly, you are insinuating that the spiritual Resurrection happens to us now?

What happens to us now is the death of the old man. What happens after death? Spiritual Resurrection? No. Judgement.

1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:"

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

We are to consider ourselves dead that we may partake in judgement now.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That we may be alive in the spirit that resides in us. The spirit of Christ. That we may be converted.

This is a daily activity though. We don't just die once, we die daily. It is a process!

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

This is the process of regeneration.

Lastly, when we are spiritually raised (Born again [NOT conceived] into the kingdom of God) we become invisible and powerful like the wind. I quoted this piece of scripture above. Here it is again:

John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Everything about 1 Corinthians talks about the RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. A FUTURE event that HAS NOT yet happened.

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So also is THE [not 'A' ressurection but 'THE', THE ONE AND ONLY] resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Here is what paul said about this idea that I think you are trying to hint at:

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

IF I am correct about what you have been insinuating, then this is a warning. Do not overthrow the faith of those yet weak in these matters.

God be with you,
Alex

P.S. If I am completely off on what you were trying to hint at then please ignore everything I Just said as it would not apply one bit to your thoughts.

[rick]

Hello Alex,

Alex, your last reply which was post 71concerning me cleared some things up that I didn’t realize or had thought about before.

I always thought as long as I commit just one sin, I cannot be converted. For me , you did a great job explaining and filling in the missing pieces of information or understanding I was lacking.

The things you explained ,I see so clearly now and not only that which you mentioned but also what Kat and J from K said as well.
I actually understand in greater depths my walk with Christ,.

Many thanks to you Alex and all who have responded to this thread 

[Ian 155]

One cannot start in the spiritual and suddenly revert back to the natural (thats like hot and cold mixed) ... Ill put some scripture together and send it to Kat or the mods for consideration as to whether we discuss or not - Phil 3v10,11,12-

[lilitalienboi16]

.

One cannot start in the spiritual and suddenly revert back to the natural (thats like hot and cold mixed) ... Ill put some scripture together and send it to Kat or the mods for consideration as to whether we discuss or not -

Hello Ian,

We are not reverting back to the natural simply because we havnt overcome, been saved, endured to the end, beeen  raised from the dead...Discussions are fine but certain ideas border on heresy and blasphemy. Paul warned that this concept of the resurrection of the dead already having happened was overthrowing the faith of believers.

Here is Philippians

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

Paul is saying that as far as the ressurection of the dead is concerned, he has not already attained. The same thing he said in timothy of it not being already passed. The same thing ray pointed out with "RECKON" yourselves dead, I.e. "consider" yourselves dead to the flesh so you may be alive in the spirit. Those born of the spirit, born again, are powerful and invisible like the wind. We have a promise of this redemption to come in our conception from God through the holy spirit in us but we have not "already attained" it. Only those that overcome shall be saved, those that endure to the end.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endureunto the end, the same shall be saved.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be [FUTURE, NOT as though weve already attained] also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

The work in us has began, it iisn't finished yet. We have not yet attained.

In Christ,
Alex