> General Discussions
General Questions
Mike Gagne:
Thanks Kat! Now I see where that FAQ is ,great another place to frequent! I just love Lrays teachings.... One does not stop all his sinning just because he desires to stop. I desired to stop, but I couldn't stop. When it was God's time in my life to really repent and stop sinning, then God brought that about. No matter how much power you believe there to be in human will, God will bring you to the place that you will have NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH (Phil. 3:3). God is going to make you hate your sins real bad before He will grant you victory over them. Be patient--pray and obey till God comes to your aid.... That's was from LRay. Now I know thats true because I can look back and see some sins God has granted me repentence to some things still happen and it's just like LRay stated! That's why I say eventually we finish are race! Doesn't Paul say...Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (1 Corinthians 9:24 KJV)... I told my friend once about my 17yr addiction to meth that when my heart was just sick and tired of it and I just hated being a meth addict,it was at that point God got my heart right that He could grant me repentence! That's why I know what LRay is saying is true!!
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Rick on November 04, 2014, 06:16:14 PM ---Hello Alex,
Maybe I’m missing something here but my understanding is that anyone who gets converted lives sin free, if king David was converted he would of never said ( make it bloody ).
When God gives us a new heart we then become converted as much as I can tell, when I was in so called Christendom, I was asked more than once ( are you born again ) has the resurrection happen, and I don’t know about it. Lol
If someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for that one to sin because they are converted but if they say they are converted and sin then their actions speak louder than words.
I agree God is calling out for Himself a people but if God converts people in this age then what need of God’s grace have we ?
What need of faith have we? But we hope for these things but if we have them already then why would someone hope for what they already have ?
We are involved in an on going process in this age but if we are converted the process is pointless.
God said, let us be making man in our image, when the man becomes converted he is in the image of God.
Thanks for your input Alex, maybe you see more than I but these are my thoughts. :)
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
What I shared with you was scripture. Peter was converted and strengthened his brothers after Pentecost. Paul was converted along the road to Damascus. So conversion does occur in this life.
Here is an email from ray on this matter concerning the apostles:
Dear Mike: Do not become discouraged because you are not yet where you desire to be spiritually in your life. God works differently with different people. We see it in our daily lives and the the lives of those in the Scriptures. It took over three years before the Apostles were converted, yet Saul/Paul submitted to God almost instantly after his calling.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5034.msg39488.html#msg39488
Receiving a new heart is a process that happens over time and will not be completed until we are fully redeemed, saved, overcome, born into the kingdom of God. Ray shows, as do the scriptures, that we are converted when we are begotten anew.
You are confusing begotten (concieved) with begotten (born). The greek language uses the same word for both. So we are CONCEIVED by the holy spirit, converted, when Christ comes and dwells within us, to which we begin putting off the old man, dying to self, being baptized into his death, crucified with him, etc..
We are BORN into the kingdom of God, birthed, born again, when judgement upon us is fully completed and has completed its redeeming work. The elect will be born into the kingdom at the first Resurrection, but they are (as well as the chosen) currently begotten of God. How do I know this? Well besides the verse I shared with you in 1 Peter 1:3, we have these words from Christ:
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
When you are "born again" (Don't confuse it with "conceived") then you are powerful and invisible like the wind. No one in this life will be like that. So hence we have two different scenarios here and it is the latter (conception) which causes us to be converted.
So those who are converted have a DOWNPAYMENT, a PROMISE, of a future redemption to come.
2Co 1:21-22 Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
So you said that if someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for them to sin. I will tell you that conversion does not equate with being an overcomer. It is merely a step in the process along the way to overcoming, being saved--Salvation.
Here is another email from ray:
Dear Chris:
The Harlot Church consists of ALL unconverted Christians, not just Catholics.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2624.msg19752.html#msg19752
And another:
COMMENT: I'm sorry, but I do not see the connection of your question with Matt. 16:8? The church IS "A WELL KNOWN AND POPULATED CHURCH." Christendom is the largest religion in the world--TWO BILLION. That is, two billion in "name." How many of them are spiritually converted? How many believe the half of what Jesus taught?
After healing thousands and thousands and thousands of people, Jesus had 120 true believers left at the end of His ministry to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:15). And who ever said that the church was found "on only one web site?"
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2200.msg17727.html#msg17727
This too.
Dear Kemi:
When you are spiritually converted and have the Holy Spirit of God, you are then "IN Christ" you are IN "The Book of the Life of the Lamb." Jesus Christ IS THE BOOK OF LIFE! And there is henceforth "NO CONDEMNATION" toward you ever again (Rom. 8:1). That is the ultimate place we all want to be. Etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1468.msg12459.html#msg12459
Interestingly Romans 8:1 reads as follows: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
NOW there is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST. The apostles were converted, they were in Christ, but they were not sinless. They still sinned because we will all sin while trapped in these fleshy bodies. We can be converted though, I believe it absolutely that we can. It is through conversion that we reach that point where "sin no longer reigns (Romans 6:11-13)" in us.
Here's the nail in the coffin as far as what ray taught is concerned:
Dear Bethany:
Absolutely it means that the spirit has no consciousness of its own. This can easily be proved and has been proved millions and millions of times. When a person is knocked out with a blow to the head, there is absolutely no damange to the spirit within man, whatsoever. Yet under this condition person knocked out HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS. He possesses a spirit, but HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS. His physical body must be "repaired" or "normalized" in some way for consciousness to return. The spirit may well be keeping the knocked out person alive, but yet, he has no consciousness.
I never said that no spirit has consciousness. OUR spirit has no consciousness. God IS Spirit and God is conscious, but we are NOT GOD. We only have a form of spirit in us to keep us alive. When converted God gives us yet ANOTHER SPIRIT which is called the HOLY Spirit, and it effects out consciousness, but does not keep us conscious at death, as that requires resurrection.
Notice I Cor. 2;11--"For what man man knows the things of a man, except [for] the spirit of man which is IN HIM? even so the thngs of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God [in him]."
It is only when "the spiritof man" is "IN HIM" that he has consciousness and "knows the things of a man." OUT of him, the spirit of man knows no anything: "For the living know [when the spirit is still IN man] that they shall die: but the DEAD [when the spirit is returned to God--see Chapt. 3:19-20] KNOW NOT ANY THING...." (Ecc. 9:5).
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2168.msg17408.html#msg17408
God bless,
Alex
Ian 155:
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jesus our example was raised from the dead literally (1st the physical)that is not a good example if it does not happen to us now.(spiritually) put your finger in my side may be literal but others can put there finger in our side and see our wounds literally (our testimony)
In all these comments about resurrection are we speaking literal resurrection or spiritual resurrection (new creation) the old has passed (DIED)
Can we be dead yet breath and can we be alive in him and still be breathing.... don't know how to put this otherwise ... perhaps Im also going Mad
Kat:
Well Ian, the Scripture never speak of 'spiritual' conversion as resurrection in this life... as Alex just was saying it is "we begin putting off the old man, dying to self, being baptized into his death, crucified with him, etc.."
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
v. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
That Scripture you provided is certainly not talking about 'spiritual' resurrection, but the coming resurrection of the world in the next age, the patriarchs were not converted.
http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html ------------------
The Bible teaches "the Resurrection of the DEAD--dead PEOPLE, not dead bodies:
"But as touching (Greek: 'peri,' with respect to, concerning, pertaining to, about, on behalf of, ' the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt. 22:31-32)
Some ignorant theologians use this verse to prove that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never died, since it says "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
For crying out loud, can they not read? In what way? Pertaining to WHAT? With respect to WHAT, is God the God of the living? "But as touching [concerning] THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD...God is the God of the living"! It is only "concerning the resurrection of the DEAD" that God is the God of the living. It is only in "resurrection" that the dead will be once again "living," and God will then be their God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ian 155:
Kat it is a battle for me to explain.... - not sure if its out of fear of sounding Whacked, or if its going to turn what people think they know, on its head... I have been doing a lot of reading,asking,studies on this subject of resurrection that is "supposed" reserved for "some time" we call "end times",when I'm done, I will put something together and post it as a discussion
reading John 11:1- end & 1Cor 15- end,see what you think, there are many other scriptures but it all started with that one and then a few discussions of late, centered around this topic also got me delving.
I do not think this is as complicated as most find it to be. Crucifiction is separate from Burial which is separate from resurrection.
You quote Rom 6 v 5 - "Likeness" appears twice,underline them and selah
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