Translated Not to See Death? Ever?

[josh]

Hi. I have a question...

Let me start by saying this is not a trick question, it is simply a matter which I have been unable to resolve regarding Enoch.  I have come across a small amount of material on this site concerning Enoch, I believe in Ray's rapture paper... but am still having a bit of trouble with the subject... let me explain my dilemma...

I'm sure you all know the verses... but let type them out just in case...

Genesis 5:21-24
And Enoch liveth five and sixty years, and begetteth Methuselah. And Enoch walketh habitually with God after his begetting Methuselah three hundred years, and begetteth sons and daughters. And all the days of Enoch are three hundred and sixty and five years. And Enoch walketh habitually with God, and he is not, for God hath taken him.

Hebrews 11:5-6, 13-16
By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.

In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted [them], and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth, for those saying such things make manifest that they seek a country; and if, indeed, they had been mindful of that from which they came forth, they might have had an opportunity to return, but now they long for a better, that is, an heavenly, wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for He did prepare for them a city.

Ok, In Genesis Enoch is taken by God... this is further expounded upon in Hebrews... By faith Enoch was translated NOT TO SEE DEATH, and was not found, because God did translate him...

But then only a few verses down the chapter says that ALL of these mentioned before DIED (How could Enoch die if he was "not to see death"...

This "seems" like a contradiction, which I am pretty sure is probably a translation error... the above verses are quoted from Young's Literal Translation.... I attempted to see how these words, "death", "not", "translated" were further amplified in definition with my Strong's Concordance, but am still left with confusion on this matter...

Any thoughts?

[jerreye]

Hi Josh,

Let me try

First off, we know for a fact that Enoch died. The scriptures you quoted say so. It also says he was "translated" (moved to a different location) so that he would not see death. I believe that Enoch was moved to a different location so that he would not see death at the hand of his enemies. In otherwords, God protected him from his enemies and moved him to a location where none of his enemies could find him. He later died of natural causes I presume.

Cheers!
Jeremy

[josh]

Are there any other circumstances where someone was "translated" in scripture?

I'm sure this has also been answered before, what about Elijah?

[hillsbororiver]

Are there any other circumstances where someone was "translated" in scripture?

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us  into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Obviously Paul was still physically alive on earth when he wrote this, living in the hope of "enduring to the end" so he would be a part of the first resurrection.

Joe

[SandyFla]

Philip met an Ethiopian eunuch who was reading the scriptures, but didn't understand what he was reading. After Philip explained it to him, the eunuch believed and was baptized. Then ...

Acts 8:39 - And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:40 - But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Sandy

[M_Oliver]

Are there any other circumstances where someone was "translated" in scripture?

I'm sure this has also been answered before, what about Elijah?

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. (2Ki 2:1)

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2Ki 2:11)

But this occurred after that.  So he did not leave the earth...

And there came a writing to him [Jehoram] from Elijah, the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because, thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,... (2Ch 21:12)

Mark

PS:  I pretty sure H8064 can solidly mean visible heavens, sky so that removes any contradiction with the translation "heaven".

[josh]

And there came a writing to him [Jehoram] from Elijah, the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because, thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,... (2Ch 21:12)

Any idea on estimated dates of when Elijah was taken up in the chariot of fire and when he sent the letter to Jehoram?

[M_Oliver]

And there came a writing to him [Jehoram] from Elijah, the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because, thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,... (2Ch 21:12)

Any idea on estimated dates of when Elijah was taken up in the chariot of fire and when he sent the letter to Jehoram?

Taken up...852BC...after Ahaziah [Northern King] died.  Jehoram of Judah [Southern King] is who he wrote to.  His reign began 848 BC.  So at minimum, if he wrote him at the beginning of his reign, it would have been 4 years from the "taking up".

 

[gmik]

hey, good thread Josh.  Always wondered that myself.  Makes more sense now.

[Brett]

Ok, In Genesis Enoch is taken by God... this is further expounded upon in Hebrews... By faith Enoch was translated NOT TO SEE DEATH, and was not found, because God did translate him...

Hi Josh,

I checked the Greek dictionary "TO SEE" death. To see is something to known or what you saw, yet, death in Hades is UNSEEN, UNPERCIEVE, UNKOWLEDGE, etc. So in Heb. 11:5 does not say like "Enoch never death" but something he was not SEE death. So it is impossible for Enoch have knowledge and SEEN in Hades. Again, something he SEE death but not like 'never death'. Enoch can't be better than Jesus because He was DEAD, the Lamb of God before resurrection. So, it seem to me that no one saw him dying or bury him. He was transfering and then later he died without informed their relative. Not sure if I am right. Ray did good response to Tim. It is good idea to ask Ray about what is mean "to see death". I will be interesting of his response.

Brett

[jenny06]

It does, at first glance, seem a contradiction...If Enoch had not seen death, then why is it followed with, "These all died in faith"?  Could "death" be translated as something other than death as we think of it?  Could it be a reference to the second death? 

Heb 11:5-6...for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.  But without faith it is impossible to please him:

Ironic that just a few days ago I was struggling with Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.  Maybe I was just too tired at the time I read it.  In retrospect, maybe I was concentrating too hard on the minutest detail.  These men (an Sarah) had done all by faith.  What a fabulous example we have in them...living by faith and pleasing God and our reward will be great.