The punishment for those preaching eternal torment

[Farlsborough]

I don't think there is space for being smug in our faith... Ray seemed to regularly (and rightly) have a sharp word for those who felt superior, smug, haughty etc. - "guilty of all!". And for those in mainstream churches who seem to want people to burn in hell for all eternity.

However, in one of his talks, he does allude to having received some kind of illumination of revelation about what the judgement of those who preach eternal torment will involve. I believe he says something like "wait until you discover what their punishment will be - it will blow you away!". He goes on to say that God's justice is perfect, and when we see the judgement people undergo our response will be "it's perfect - it cannot be improved upon!".

I'm curious as to whether he ever divulged this, in lecture or in written format - I think I've worked through pretty much all the teachings made available through this site, and don't remember coming across it. More out of curiosity than anything - because he mentions it in a way that seems like he is going to share it at a later time, I wonder if he did. I'd also be interested to know whether this was from scripture, or whether he just felt he had some kind of direct revelation about it.

[indianabob]

Hi Farlsborough,

I don't have an answer from Ray's writings, but my view has long been that God will provide them with perfect recall through a vision of how their preaching affected the lives of everyone they taught from their less than perfect understanding.

Imagine being given a mind that understands the truth and then rehearsing over and over again all the lies and half-truths that you preached to trusting members of your congregation. The purpose being to make the preacher painfully aware of how much pain they caused and to acknowledge that ONLY a loving God could forgive them AND that they were actually forgiven too.

There will be much gnashing of teeth and then absolute relief when they finally realize that their sins are forgiven just as much as those of anyone else.
First the knowledge of sins made clear and then the revelation of full forgiveness from a loving God and Christ.

Indiana Bob

[Extol]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14674.msg129779.html#msg129779

[lilitalienboi16]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14674.msg129779.html#msg129779

Spot on Jesse, I am in agreement on their fear of being condemned to eternal punishment. Don't necessarily see the rapist being in fear of of being raped but maybe! Nevertheless, very good post about Joseph and his brothers.

God bless,
Alex

[indianabob]

Dear Alex and Jesse,
The main thrust of God's plan of redemption is to overcome evil with love.
When Lord Jesus is ruling on the earth righteousness must prevail.
When God says "vengeance is mine" it does not mean that God wants or prefers to administer vengeance. It just means that vengeance is NOT for us to administer.
Whatever "correction" is meted out must be from sincere love of the sinner.

Indiana Bob

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14674.msg129779.html#msg129779

Spot on Jesse, I am in agreement on their fear of being condemned to eternal punishment. Don't necessarily see the rapist being in fear of of being raped but maybe! Nevertheless, very good post about Joseph and his brothers.

God bless,
Alex

[wcd]

Read part 11 Lake of fire series for the answer to that.

[Kat]

Hi Farlsborough,

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html ----

Let me tell you something, the scribes and the Pharisees never taught a doctrine this damnable. You listen to Jesus Christ. He called them everything but... I won't say it. They never taught a doctrine half, a tenth, not a billionth as evil as what the church is teaching today. I'm telling you, this teaching of hell is the ultimate blasphemy. There is no greater sin that any human being can think or do, than to believe that the God that they worship will actually torture their mothers and fathers and some of their sisters and brothers and relatives in real fire for all eternity. It's the ultimate sin. They think they are doing God a favor by teaching this.

No, they're not going to be tortured for all eternity, because we are teaching against that. But wait until you find out what their punishment will be. It will blow you away.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I think you are referring to this from the 2005 Nashville conference 'Guilty of All.'

In the resurrection of the rest of the dead, thinking how they will be raised up with the same mind that they died with, they will still think/believe/understand exactly the way they did the last days of their past life on earth, whatever that was. So when people really believe and have even taught their very twisted and evil version of God, they certainly believe there is a fiery hell hole waiting for the those raised to condemnation... well what will be going through their minds when they are not raised to a glorious heavenly reward?

They will think they are going to that hell they believe in! What a horror they will feel with that notion... and there will be no getting out of it, they will give account (Rom 14:12) of their dreadful preaching. The torments/judgments that some will have to face, in the presents of true righteousness (God and the elect) for the evil they have done will really be like a hell (symbolically) of their own making. I don't believe it will be just an acknowledgment of their sins either, some will probably take many years of rooting out stubbornness and all the corruption they have developed over a lifetime and that's just the start.

Rev 19:20  Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet G5578 who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Who is this "beast?" Well we know it's all of us while in the carnal flesh... but who is a "false prophet" that is spoken of? Just like the beast is the carnal nature in mankind, wouldn't the false prophet represent all of those who set themselves up as teachers, preaching falsehoods against who God is?

G5578 (false prophet) a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.

These preachers who claim to represent God and have so horribly maligned His name will have to give account for all the people they have lead into deception. Realize that all Christians will not have the same judgment, He looks on the heart and He knows exactly what each person's intentions have been, there could be extreme variables of degrees in judgment. Some deserve "many stripes," other only a few... but each will be dealt with according to what they 'need' and some will need quite harsh treatment to straighten them out, because of their own harsh nature.

I don't think this is a simple subject, God will take over this world with great power and authority and will rule with a rod of iron (Psalms 2:9 ; Rev 2:27; 12:5 )... This is not a literal rod, it's a figure of speech, I do not believe that the judgment is physical so much as spiritual, no literal beatings or physical violence at all. No, Christ's elect will not need to resort to that.

But I do NOT believe the elect will be like ordinary people, with the only difference is they have the mind of God, trying to talk people into being righteous. Not at all, those in the first resurrection will be raised with a glorious and powerful spiritual body, to show exactly who they are to the world. It would be extremely intimidating and with good reason, as this is a evil and corrupt world and will not be made righteous overnight. The elect will have been given great power and authority and will carry out God's will to perfection. I tend to think that the verse that says, "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matt 16:19), may be referring to that time of judgment.

Also there would be many people who will readily serve the government of God in the physical world and don't forget about the whole heavenly host that serve God throne, they should come in handy as well. Oh well big subject, wonderful to contemplate though.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Thanks Kat,
Very well said and helpful.
Would that I had just a little of your ability to communicate effectively.

Friend, Indiana Bob

[Ian 155]

I think a bigger question is what would I like to happen to these ministers of Satan(which then places me firmly in the same boat) - then I'd have to repent of having a murderous heart.

Is not God the "chief orchestrator" ? does God not use different vessels for different purposes ?

These preachers must be here...according to what I've been taught

What punishment can be better than swimming in the "sea" with a millstone around ones neck

I think they will continue covering the the truth with lies until such time as the Father shows them different.

Protecting a lie can be rather burdensome, some go to great lengths to keep it up (in my view this can be like having a millstone around ones neck) when cracks start to appear in their ministry such as infidelity,greed,love of money,these all, I think, point to a spiritual problem.

They may be able to "swim" for a while, but eventually they will 'die' to their teaching.(now or later)

Matt 18v6

[thewatchman]

All sin deserves judgement, including misrepresenting God's word. But maybe the revelation hasn't been given to them yet and that is in the hands of God, who opens our eyes. Things are rarely black and white and we do not have the character of God within that will allow us to judge righteously. So we should concentrate on what we have influence on, which is ourself. And be grateful that God has chosen to open our eyes. 

[John from Kentucky]

All sin deserves judgement, including misrepresenting God's word. But maybe the revelation hasn't been given to them yet and that is in the hands of God, who opens our eyes. Things are rarely black and white and we do not have the character of God within that will allow us to judge righteously. So we should concentrate on what we have influence on, which is ourself. And be grateful that God has chosen to open our eyes. 

Actually, we do not have any influence on ourselves.  The Scriptures tell us, "There are none righteous, no not one."  And again, "All have sinned."  We were programmed to sin.  It is natural in us.

It is God Who works in us both to will and to do.  If there is any goodness in us, any blessing, it is all by the grace of God.  To God and God alone is all praise and thankfulness due.

[rick]

What I've learned from Ray's papers apposed to what my understanding was before I was lead to B.T. is like the difference between night and day.

Before I was lead to B.T. my belief and understanding about God was that God was more about condemnation and eternal punishment.

My understanding of Ray's papers  tell me quite the opposite. Christ did not die in vain for any human being regardless of whatever sins they have committed. ( Christ will save all )

Its not about punishment but learning righteousness, God has not made us in vanity in vain.
Unless I totally misunderstood Ray's papers, the whole of God's plans for the human race is to be making us in His image which require and experience of good and evil to humble us by.

I wonder if God is going to give us a new heart or is He making within us a new heart by destroying our carnality by purging us with His cleansing fire.

God is Love, God is trustworthy and God is going to save all in whatever manor He chooses to save All His creation. How God saves all matters not nearly as much as the outcome which is no longer being made but are made in the image of our creator. How beautiful is that.