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[Kat]

Hi Mike,

I think most of us spent so many years in the church and seeing them teach the literalness in all the Scripture, so that's how we were trained to see it and it takes time to un-train that way of thinking.  They take everything that the Scripture says literally and says it's spiritual, no, the literal words are pointing to a higher spiritual meaning. God has made the truth a mystery, hidden in plain sight, so that "seeing they do not see." The spiritual meaning is not obvious, it is not what the literal symbols are, that only point to the real spirit in/behind the words.

So 144,000 literally is a large number, but it has meaning behind the literal number
12 = God’s government - 12x12 = complete - x1000 = all the chosen
Does that make sense? I don't think it means that literal number of people anymore than New Jerusalem is a literal city or we are literal sheep or when Christ appears He will be sitting on a literal white horse and on and on. You have to kind of need to train yourself to look for the meaning behind the word/symbol now.

Hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
 

[Mike Gagne]

 I seen today it isn't about the 144.000 why Jesus had me start this thread! I had to remove my last response, I was keeping records of things people said in this string as wrongs against me! Love keeps no records of wrongs. This thread is really about my carnal Heart and the work  Jesus  is doing to circumcise  it until it is just Christ! If I have offended any one forgive me!  I wasn't and still ain't really all that concerned about the number, the number isn't the point I see now, it's the heart!  All the knowledge in the world doesn't mean anything if my heart isn't being circumzied!! I know what the lake of fire is!  Thank you all for your great response's!

[rick]

Hello Mike,

what is fascinating to me from what I've learned is that I cannot learn anything about God until God's appointed time,

EC 3:1  Everything that happens in this world happens at the time God chooses.

This includes our understanding, when we learn the meaning of symbolism.

Last night while driving down the road I had passed a telephone pole and I, at that moment, realized I passed that pole at the appointed time I was suppose to pass it.  Mind blowing isn't it?
God is cool in every way, He is totally awesome in that nothing happens until the appointed time in the appointed season.

God bless.   

[Mike Gagne]

So true Rick! It is in His time, for it is God which worketh in us both to will and do of His good pleasure! And there is a time appointed for everything!

[Dave in Tenn]

I seen today it isn't about the 144.000 why Jesus had me start this thread! I had to remove my last response, I was keeping records of things people said in this string as wrongs against me! Love keeps no records of wrongs. This thread is really about my carnal Heart and the work  Jesus  is doing to circumcise  it until it is just Christ! If I have offended any one forgive me!  I wasn't and still ain't really all that concerned about the number, the number isn't the point I see now, it's the heart!  All the knowledge in the world doesn't mean anything if my heart isn't being circumzied!! I know what the lake of fire is!  Thank you all for your great response's!

 

"heart being circumcised"...circumcision without hands...that's spiritual.  "I know what the Lake of Fire is."  That's spiritual.

The spiritual is what's real.  Real life.

His words are not just spiritual, but they are LIFE.  I'm glad to see you living this life right here through the sometimes too dark window of this internet thingamajig.

[thewatchman]

If the number was literal than we would all miss out because I presume that none of us are jews. 12000 from each tribe and that's it? No gentiles? Why were we grafted into the vine then? 12 is the number of divine government. 12 x 12 = 144 enhances the point being made. The way to become a part of the elect was predestined for all of us. The destination of election is the goal. Not a part prize, not 2nd or 3rd place, but as we all die to the flesh then the more of Christ within us our hope of glory. We need to grow up into the head which is Christ. That is what makes one elect. We make our calling and election sure by submitting to the corrective process of dying to the flesh through suffering, just as Christ learned and grew in favour through obedience in the things that he suffered.
Hands to the plow my brothers and sisters....the road is a narrow one. 

[Mike Gagne]

The elect are the true Jews! ....And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people? In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it. For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people. (Romans‬ 2‬:26-29‬ NLT)...In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Colossians‬ 2‬:11‬ KJV)... We don't do this work! This is the work of the lake of fire and that's Christ! And everyday I go through this fire!! And I pray for His will to be done, His work to be done in my life... Just thought I would share that!  Thanks...

[lilitalienboi16]

If the number was literal than we would all miss out because I presume that none of us are jews. 12000 from each tribe and that's it? No gentiles? Why were we grafted into the vine then? 12 is the number of divine government. 12 x 12 = 144 enhances the point being made. The way to become a part of the elect was predestined for all of us. The destination of election is the goal. Not a part prize, not 2nd or 3rd place, but as we all die to the flesh then the more of Christ within us our hope of glory. We need to grow up into the head which is Christ. That is what makes one elect. We make our calling and election sure by submitting to the corrective process of dying to the flesh through suffering, just as Christ learned and grew in favour through obedience in the things that he suffered.
Hands to the plow my brothers and sisters....the road is a narrow one. 

Hi watchmen,

Good admonishing, just a small comment though.

We are the Isreal of God and those tribes represent us.

Romans 9:6-8 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

1 Peter 2:9-10 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

We are the Jews.

God bless,
Alex

[Mike Gagne]

When you read LRays lake of fire, it's seems to me that there is a whole lot more to becoming a true Jew, like a life time of processing  rather then just quoting scriptures before you are ready! First the natural, then the spiritual or the birth of the true Jew! When you think your in a process that's fine, but when you read Lrays teachings and the scriptures that say you can also lose this position it might be wise to consider who we think we are!... So if you think you are standing firm,be careful that you don't fall!!  Lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. I see what's happening in my life and I know what process I am going through and when Gods done his work in me let Him call me a true Jew, that's Christ!! 😀

[PaulJayyyy]

Can numbers be symbols or are they numbers?  John LOOKED and SAW 144000, the scriptures do not say he looked and saw 144000 which signifies the body of Christ.  I have never heard of or seen in scripture anywhere the symbolic value or representation of that number.  Any thoughts for feedback?

[Kat]

Hi PaulJayyyy,

Welcome to the forum 
Well to consider every number in Scripture as literal then where is the spiritual meaning that Christ spoke of?

John 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Yes there is can be a literal application, but that is for the physical, not the spiritual. There are numerous times in Scripture where numbers are symbols, here is an earlier post about this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------

"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."

That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.

New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).

In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.

The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.

• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
 
Rev 14:1  Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2  And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3  and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
 
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000, this is 12 times 12 (showing the power of the number, a profound statement about the completeness of God’s government to be set up in the next age) a thousand times. This number 1000 is also used to show the absolute wholeness of the numbers 144,000, as 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.

Deu 7:9  "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

1Ch 16:15  Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,

Psalms 50:10  For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.

2Peter 3:8  But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[PaulJayyyy]

Thank you for that Kat ;-) that was great!  However, I see a lot of events in the bible that are allegorical to explain other things, but the events themselves are literally real events that happened and actually took place.  So I'm not 100 percent convinced yet, my heart still sees this number as being a literal number that represents the body of Christ.  Usually when I am presented with a solid case against my belief I struggle with it for awhile before it takes affect but not so far in this case :-)

[PaulJayyyy]

So if that number is just a symbol then the body of Christ can be any number of people, it could in fact be every single believer in Christ since the cross, if, of course, they have been tried in the fire, and, have been chosen in him before the foundation of the world.  It took him 4.3 billion years to prepare this planet to process sons, this tells me he's very precise, meticulous, and exact, so when he says he will redeem exactly 144000 men from exactly 12 tribes, with literal names per tribe I'm slightly inclined to believe it. :-P

[Kat]

Paul, you should read back over this thread again, because I think most of your questions should have already been answered.

But yes the stories in the Bible that we read: Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, Moses and the Israelites... are all true events that literally did happen. But there is much symbolism in those stories that point to higher spiritual truths. Now there are parables hidden within the story itself and that's what makes the Scripture such a mystery.

Col 1:26  the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

1Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Nobody can just figure these things out, that's what the religions of the world have tried to do down through the centuries to no avail, they look on all these things as literal and therefore have no spiritual knowledge. The 144,000 is no more a literal number than 5 of the 10 virgins is the actual number of the elect.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

So if that number is just a symbol then the body of Christ can be any number of people, it could in fact be every single believer in Christ since the cross, if, of course, they have been tried in the fire, and, have been chosen in him before the foundation of the world.  It took him 4.3 billion years to prepare this planet to process sons, this tells me he's very precise, meticulous, and exact, so when he says he will redeem exactly 144000 men from exactly 12 tribes, with literal names per tribe I'm slightly inclined to believe it. :-P

You seemed to be inclined to believe whatever you feel while ignoring what has been stated. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.

Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."

2 Peter 1:20 "knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is at all becoming its own explanation."

2Pe 1:20  "Of this, first, taking note—that, no prophecy of scripture, becometh, self-solving;"

2 Corinthians 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."


Matthew 18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

Do you also believe Jesus will literally return back to earth with a sword sticking out of His mouth?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

No? Then why are these numbers suddenly literal exact values rather than shadows of spiritual realities?

This is the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. What do we know about His Words?

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit[NOT literal], and they are life."

What is the FIRST thing we are told about this testimony of Jesus'?

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

Do you know what it means to SIGNIFY something?

Here is strong's definition:

Strong's Concordance
sémainó: to give a sign
Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I signify, indicate
Definition: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.

Here is the dictionary definition of Signify:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/signify
signify (ˈsɪɡnɪˌfaɪ)
vb (when tr, may take a clause as object) , -fies, -fying or -fied
1. (tr) to indicate, show, or suggest
2. (tr) to imply or portend: the clouds signified the coming storm.
3. (tr) to stand as a symbol, sign, etc (for)
4. (intr) to be significant or important

To quote ray:
"He "SYMBOLIZED" it, for that is what "signifies" means--to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. Therefore it can’t be literal."

Read this paper by ray for more information: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

In Christ,
Alex

[Ian 155]

it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.

Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."

Actually the "sum" hebrew is The beginning it is in 3-4 translations , rendered SUM but that may imply "unless you put all the word together some word on its own may not be true, but when you add the words up they are (that is by comparison).

I am inclined to go with KJ and about 9 others on this one

Psa 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

DRB Psa 119:160  The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.

JB Hebrew Psa 119:160  The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,... "every word is true"and every word is inspired by God

Interesting too is the word "WORD" greek it is spoken as in... "I give you my word" a promise or advice

Just a little side line I thought may be helpful when studying,


144000 represent all the true Jews ie spiritual Israel  the 24 elders are the 12 sons of Abraham and the 12 disciples - I believe 12 Apostles rather as the death of Judas made the 12 disciple 1 short

this has a higher meaning bringing/grafting together the old 12 and the new 12  this is my understanding so....

 dont take it to the bank

[lilitalienboi16]

it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.

Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."

Actually the "sum" hebrew is The beginning it is in 3-4 translations , rendered SUM but that may imply "unless you put all the word together some word on its own may not be true, but when you add the words up they are (that is by comparison).

I am inclined to go with KJ and about 9 others on this one

Psa 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

DRB Psa 119:160  The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.

JB Hebrew Psa 119:160  The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,... "every word is true"and every word is inspired by God

Interesting too is the word "WORD" greek it is spoken as in... "I give you my word" a promise or advice

Just a little side line I thought may be helpful when studying,


144000 represent all the true Jews ie spiritual Israel  the 24 elders are the 12 sons of Abraham and the 12 disciples - I believe 12 Apostles rather as the death of Judas made the 12 disciple 1 short

this has a higher meaning bringing/grafting together the old 12 and the new 12  this is my understanding so....

 dont take it to the bank

International Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and each righteous ordinance of yours is everlasting."

English Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."

New American Standard Bible  "The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. Shin."

Holman Christian Standard Bible "The entirety of Your word is truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure forever. "

American Standard Version "The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever."

Darby Bible Translation "The sum of thy word is truth, and every righteous judgment of thine is for ever."

English Revised Version "The sum of thy word is truth; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

Young's Literal Translation "The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!"

Concordat Literal Version "The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."

Biblos Interlinear Bible "The sum of your word is truth..."

Rotterdam "The sum of thy word, is truth, and, age-abiding, is every one of thy righteous regulations. "

The list goes on and on.

3-4 Translations?

Here is the word the KJV translates "beginning" according to strongs;

H7218

רֹאשׁ
rô'sh
roshe
band, captain, company,
From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.) -- band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

In exodus 30:12 the KJV translates this word you argue as beginning into SUM.

Exo 30:12  "WhenH3588 thou takestH5375 (H853) the sumH7218 of the childrenH1121 of IsraelH3478 after their number,H6485 then shall they giveH5414 every manH376 a ransomH3724 for his soulH5315 unto the LORD,H3068 when thou numberestH6485 them; that there beH1961 noH3808 plagueH5063 among them, when thou numberestH6485 them. "

Exo 30:12 "When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number,"

Here the KJV does it again as SUM

Numbers 1:2 "Take ye the sum of all the congregation..."

Num 1:2  "TakeH5375 ye(H853) the sumH7218 of allH3605 the congregationH5712"

And again...

Numbers 4:22 "Take also the sum of the sons"

Here are all the occurrences of the word if you want to check it yourself: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/rosh_7218.htm

Its almost never translated beginning but mostly the top/head and taking into account the sentence structure can be translated accurately as SUM.

7 =sum, especially in phrase ׳בְּנֵייִֿשׂ ׳נָשָׂא אֶתרֿ Exodus 30:12take the sum of, enumerate, compare Numbers 1:2,49; Numbers 4:2,22; Numbers 26:2; Numbers 31:26,49; בְּראֹשׁוֺ Leviticus 5:24 in its sum, i.e. in full, so Numbers 5:7 (all P); of ׳יs thoughts Psalm 139:17; compare ראֹשׁ דְּבָֽרְךָ אֱמֶתPsalm 119:160.

Here is a link to its various uses according to strong scroll down and you'll find 7 which pertains to its uses as SUM: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7218.htm

Furthermore, The word "beginning" as seen in Genesis is a totally different word.

Proverb 11:14 "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellers there is safety."

In the mouth of two or three witnesses, in the multitude of counselors, taking ACCOUNT for the SUM of the word, there IS safety for no piece of scripture is at all becoming its OWN interpretation.

In Christ ,
Alex

P.S. We know the KJV contains gross mistranslation such as eternal, forever, hell, etc... and the bibles that translate off it perpetuate those mistakes. The literal versions and then some (pun intended) translate it as "SUM of thy word."

[lilitalienboi16]

it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.

Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."

Actually the "sum" hebrew is The beginning it is in 3-4 translations , rendered SUM but that may imply "unless you put all the word together some word on its own may not be true, but when you add the words up they are (that is by comparison).

I am inclined to go with KJ and about 9 others on this one

Psa 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

DRB Psa 119:160  The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.

JB Hebrew Psa 119:160  The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,... "every word is true"and every word is inspired by God

Interesting too is the word "WORD" greek it is spoken as in... "I give you my word" a promise or advice

Just a little side line I thought may be helpful when studying,


144000 represent all the true Jews ie spiritual Israel  the 24 elders are the 12 sons of Abraham and the 12 disciples - I believe 12 Apostles rather as the death of Judas made the 12 disciple 1 short

this has a higher meaning bringing/grafting together the old 12 and the new 12  this is my understanding so....

 dont take it to the bank

International Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and each righteous ordinance of yours is everlasting."

English Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."

New American Standard Bible  "The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. Shin."

Holman Christian Standard Bible "The entirety of Your word is truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure forever. "

American Standard Version "The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever."

Darby Bible Translation "The sum of thy word is truth, and every righteous judgment of thine is for ever."

English Revised Version "The sum of thy word is truth; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

Young's Literal Translation "The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!"

Concordat Literal Version "The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."

Biblos Interlinear Bible "The sum of your word is truth..."

Rotterdam "The sum of thy word, is truth, and, age-abiding, is every one of thy righteous regulations. "

The list goes on and on.

3-4 Translations?

Here is the word the KJV translates "beginning" according to strongs;

H7218

רֹאשׁ
rô'sh
roshe
band, captain, company,
From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.) -- band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

In exodus 30:12 the KJV translates this word you argue as beginning into SUM.

Exo 30:12  "WhenH3588 thou takestH5375 (H853) the sumH7218 of the childrenH1121 of IsraelH3478 after their number,H6485 then shall they giveH5414 every manH376 a ransomH3724 for his soulH5315 unto the LORD,H3068 when thou numberestH6485 them; that there beH1961 noH3808 plagueH5063 among them, when thou numberestH6485 them. "

Exo 30:12 "When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number,"

Here the KJV does it again as SUM

Numbers 1:2 "Take ye the sum of all the congregation..."

Num 1:2  "TakeH5375 ye(H853) the sumH7218 of allH3605 the congregationH5712"

And again...

Numbers 4:22 "Take also the sum of the sons"

Here are all the occurrences of the word if you want to check it yourself: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/rosh_7218.htm

Its almost never translated beginning but mostly the top/head and taking into account the sentence structure can be translated accurately as SUM.

7 =sum, especially in phrase ׳בְּנֵייִֿשׂ ׳נָשָׂא אֶתרֿ Exodus 30:12take the sum of, enumerate, compare Numbers 1:2,49; Numbers 4:2,22; Numbers 26:2; Numbers 31:26,49; בְּראֹשׁוֺ Leviticus 5:24 in its sum, i.e. in full, so Numbers 5:7 (all P); of ׳יs thoughts Psalm 139:17; compare ראֹשׁ דְּבָֽרְךָ אֱמֶתPsalm 119:160.

Here is a link to its various uses according to strong scroll down and you'll find 7 which pertains to its uses as SUM: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7218.htm

Furthermore, The word "beginning" as seen in Genesis is a totally different word.

Proverb 11:14 "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellers there is safety."

In the mouth of two or three witnesses, in the multitude of counselors, taking ACCOUNT for the SUM of the word, there IS safety for no piece of scripture is at all becoming its OWN interpretation.

In Christ ,
Alex

P.S. We know the KJV contains gross mistranslation such as eternal, forever, hell, etc... and the bibles that translate off it perpetuate those mistakes. The literal versions and then some (pun intended) translate it as "SUM of thy word."

. Wouldn't this last quote be teaching?, and is teaching ok here? 😀 just thought someone early in a different post said no teaching!

Hello Mike,

Which part of my post do you feel is teaching that is contrary to what ray or the scriptures say?

Kindly,
Alex

[Kat]

Mike, yes there is an 'no teaching' rule.

There are a lot of articles on the BT site and it is difficult to keep up with all that is taught there, so we can come in here and ask questions and discuss things. What one needs to be careful of is that when we discuss things 'in our own words' we need to be careful it is in keeping with what Ray taught. Now I know that takes a little discernment, but that's what we are learning to do and that's where others that are well studied in what Ray taught helps.

So it helps to have a good background of what Ray taught and then we can discuss things and learn from each other.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ian 155]

lol

Alex im not gonna get banned over this ...

if sum suits you - dat cool however SUM is not found in original manuscripts

This was something I came across and looked it up albeit not thoroughly and thought it may be of interest to members

I probably should have clarified 3-4 translations  -

3-4 translations of 12 on my e-sword,alone


Sum Does not feature in the original  7760. sum or sim ►. Strong's Concordance. sum or sim: to put, place, set.[/b]

... כְּפַר הָעַמּוֺנִי see כָּפָר above Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
bribe, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village. ...

I dont even think Sum is Anglo saxon I think it is much later as opposed to beginning which i think fits better and seems to be closer to the original, but that is my opinion

Hebrew equivalent  "beginning"  from rosh Definition ...beginning,chief


NASB Translation...beginning (19), choice (2), choicest (3), finest (2), first (16), first fruits (7), foremost (2).

This scripture in psalms seems to point to Jesus,Yes? (Now i am almost certain you don't think the word Sum does Jesus Justice )

and as I said...  SUM may imply be construed as ..." unless you put all the word together, some of the word,on its own, may not be true, but when you add the words up they are true (that is by comparison)"  this I believe is blasphemy.

This,above,was an explanation I found while checking on a totally different issue with Kat. So it may have been better placed on another board but since you had just quoted that scripture ...I put it up in that particular chat or whatever you call it.

Here are some other variations I have found ---not on my e sword

This one 1st up is from "Ian's concise, living, authorised ,standard,scriptural,literal red bible"

Psalm 160 "The first fruits of your word is true"          (think I should patent it) 

 
New International Version
All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

New Living Translation
The very essence of your words is truth; all your just regulations will stand forever.

King James Bible
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The entirety of Your word is truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure forever.

International Standard Version
The sum of your word is truth, and each righteous ordinance of yours is everlasting.

NET Bible
Your instructions are totally reliable; all your just regulations endure.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The origin of your word is the truth and all the judgments of your righteousness are for eternity.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
There is nothing but truth in your word, and all of your righteous regulations endure forever.

King James 2000 Bible
Your word is true from the beginning: and every one of your righteous judgments endures forever.

American King James Version
Your word is true from the beginning: and every one of your righteous judgments endures for ever.

American Standard Version
The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.

Webster's Bible Translation
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

World English Bible
All of your words are truth. Every one of your righteous ordinances endures forever. SIN AND SHIN

Young's Literal Translation
The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
Douay-Rheims Bible

(ABP+)  The beginning  G746 G3588 of your words G3056 G1473 is truth;G225 and G2532 into G1519 the G3588 eon G165 are all G3956 the G3588 judgments G2917 G3588 of your righteousness.G1343 G1473

(ASV)  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

(CEV)  All you say can be trusted; your teachings are true and will last forever.

(DRB)  The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.

(ERV)  Every word you say can be trusted. Your laws are fair and will last forever.

(JPS)  The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.

(KJV)  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

(KJV)  Thy word H1697 is true H571 from the beginning:H7218 and every one H3605 of thy righteous H6664 judgments H4941 endureth for ever.H5769

Vs psalm 130

The declaration of thy words giveth light: and giveth

The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple .

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Your words brings light and gives understanding to the inexperienced.

New American Standard Bible
The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple

Parallel Strong's
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Your words brings light and gives understanding to the inexperienced.

New American Standard Bible
The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.

King James Bible
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Parallel Verses
New International Version
The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.

New Living Translation
The teaching of your word gives light, so even the simple can understand.

English Standard Version
The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.

New American Standard Bible
The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.

King James Bible
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Your words brings light and gives understanding to the inexperienced.

International Standard Version
The disclosure of your words illuminates, providing understanding to the simple.

NET Bible
Your instructions are a doorway through which light shines. They give insight to the untrained.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Open your word and shine and give understanding to young children.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Your word is a doorway that lets in light, and it helps gullible people understand.

King James 2000 Bible
The entrance of your words gives light; it gives understanding unto the simple.

American King James Version
The entrance of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.

American Standard Version
The opening of thy words giveth light; It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The declaration of thy words giveth light: and giveth understanding to little ones.

Darby Bible Translation
The entrance of thy words giveth light, giving understanding unto the simple.

English Revised Version
The opening of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Webster's Bible Translation
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding to the simple.

World English Bible
The entrance of your words gives light. It gives understanding to the simple.

Young's Literal Translation
The opening of Thy words enlighteneth, Instructing the simple.



Ok ? this was not a challenge this was supposed to be of interest, that was my motive an even bigger one is the word WORD, I found that fascinating

Ian