> General Discussions
144.000 ?
Kat:
Hi PaulJayyyy,
Welcome to the forum :)
Well to consider every number in Scripture as literal then where is the spiritual meaning that Christ spoke of?
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Yes there is can be a literal application, but that is for the physical, not the spiritual. There are numerous times in Scripture where numbers are symbols, here is an earlier post about this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000, this is 12 times 12 (showing the power of the number, a profound statement about the completeness of God’s government to be set up in the next age) a thousand times. This number 1000 is also used to show the absolute wholeness of the numbers 144,000, as 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
PaulJayyyy:
Thank you for that Kat ;-) that was great! However, I see a lot of events in the bible that are allegorical to explain other things, but the events themselves are literally real events that happened and actually took place. So I'm not 100 percent convinced yet, my heart still sees this number as being a literal number that represents the body of Christ. Usually when I am presented with a solid case against my belief I struggle with it for awhile before it takes affect but not so far in this case :-)
PaulJayyyy:
So if that number is just a symbol then the body of Christ can be any number of people, it could in fact be every single believer in Christ since the cross, if, of course, they have been tried in the fire, and, have been chosen in him before the foundation of the world. It took him 4.3 billion years to prepare this planet to process sons, this tells me he's very precise, meticulous, and exact, so when he says he will redeem exactly 144000 men from exactly 12 tribes, with literal names per tribe I'm slightly inclined to believe it. :-P
Kat:
Paul, you should read back over this thread again, because I think most of your questions should have already been answered.
But yes the stories in the Bible that we read: Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, Moses and the Israelites... are all true events that literally did happen. But there is much symbolism in those stories that point to higher spiritual truths. Now there are parables hidden within the story itself and that's what makes the Scripture such a mystery.
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
Nobody can just figure these things out, that's what the religions of the world have tried to do down through the centuries to no avail, they look on all these things as literal and therefore have no spiritual knowledge. The 144,000 is no more a literal number than 5 of the 10 virgins is the actual number of the elect.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: PaulJayyyy on November 10, 2014, 02:14:54 PM ---So if that number is just a symbol then the body of Christ can be any number of people, it could in fact be every single believer in Christ since the cross, if, of course, they have been tried in the fire, and, have been chosen in him before the foundation of the world. It took him 4.3 billion years to prepare this planet to process sons, this tells me he's very precise, meticulous, and exact, so when he says he will redeem exactly 144000 men from exactly 12 tribes, with literal names per tribe I'm slightly inclined to believe it. :-P
--- End quote ---
You seemed to be inclined to believe whatever you feel while ignoring what has been stated. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.
Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."
2 Peter 1:20 "knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is at all becoming its own explanation."
2Pe 1:20 "Of this, first, taking note—that, no prophecy of scripture, becometh, self-solving;"
2 Corinthians 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
Matthew 18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."
Do you also believe Jesus will literally return back to earth with a sword sticking out of His mouth?
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
No? Then why are these numbers suddenly literal exact values rather than shadows of spiritual realities?
This is the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. What do we know about His Words?
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit[NOT literal], and they are life."
What is the FIRST thing we are told about this testimony of Jesus'?
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
Do you know what it means to SIGNIFY something?
Here is strong's definition:
Strong's Concordance
sémainó: to give a sign
Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I signify, indicate
Definition: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.
Here is the dictionary definition of Signify:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/signify
signify (ˈsɪɡnɪˌfaɪ)
vb (when tr, may take a clause as object) , -fies, -fying or -fied
1. (tr) to indicate, show, or suggest
2. (tr) to imply or portend: the clouds signified the coming storm.
3. (tr) to stand as a symbol, sign, etc (for)
4. (intr) to be significant or important
To quote ray:
"He "SYMBOLIZED" it, for that is what "signifies" means--to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. Therefore it can’t be literal."
Read this paper by ray for more information: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
In Christ,
Alex
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version