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[Farlsborough]

I've enjoyed reading again through Ray's papers, and have just re-read the one on the Lucifer Hoax.

One thing which I seem to be missing, but I feel Ray glosses over it - in Ezekiel 28 he argues that the king of Tyrus is beside or with the cherub, but he us not the cherub. But Ray then quotes the latter part of verse 16, which says "...I will destroy thee, o covering cherub, from amidst the stones of fire."

His comment on this is "what nonsense, why would God destroy the cherub when it's the king of Tyrus who sinned?". That may be, but it doesn't explain why it says such in scripture! Does anyone have any insight on this, or did Ray address this specific point elsewhere?

[John from Kentucky]

I just re-read The Lucifer Hoax in the Lake of Fire articles.

It makes sense to me.  I studied the multiple Scriptures Ray quoted.  Spot on. 

The Scriptures say that Satan was a murderer and liar from the beginning.  God created him that way.  He is the crooked serpent.  He was not created perfect.

In Ezekiel, it does not say that the covering cherub was Satan.  You need to read the Scriptures with care.

Also, you need to understand that God will save all sentient beings, both man and angels.  No one is destroyed forever or perishes forever.

Finally, only God gives understanding of His Scriptures to someone when He wants them to understand.  Ask God to give you understanding.

[Kat]

Hi Farlsborough,

I have put together the places in the article where Ray had explained about who the "cherub" was or was not and put it in bold. I think having it put together like this can help you see what he was speaking about.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------

ONE OF THE BIGGEST LIES IN ALL CHRISTENDOM

("How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer")

Theologians have been teaching for centuries now that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 give us a perfect explanation of how a perfect Lucifer changed himself into Lucifer the Devil.
v

The idea being taught today is that Satan is not a necessary part of God’s purpose, but is rather a fly in the ointment. In fact, it is taught that God never created Satan in the first place. That’s right, Satan supposedly created himself, or at least became Satan by himself. Wasn’t Satan once a bright and shining star, a light-bringer, the "anointed cherub that covers?"
v

"By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, and they may behold you" (Ezek. 28:12-17).

This, we are told, is a perfect description of how perfect Lucifer, a shining light bringing archangel/cherub, became Satan the Devil. Is there any truth to this theory? We will see.
v

Babylon, the greatest kingdom of nations in the history of the world is COMING DOWN TO THE GRAVE! Just like Capernaum, Babylon was EXALTED TO HEAVEN, but is being brought down to HELL (the grave of death and destruction). And theologians and translators would try to deceive us into believing that all this is a statement about "How art thou fallen from heaven, O lucifer [firefly]." Does everything spoken of in these two chapters sound like it refers to some chubby cherub (named firefly) who lost his chubby wings when he got kicked out of heaven?
v

MAYBE THE PRINCE OF TYRUS IS SATAN

Ezekiel 28:12, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord God; You seal up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."
 
Although theologians tell us that Ezekiel 28 also records the fall of Satan from a perfect cherub, it is the king of Tyrus and not Satan who is being addressed in this lamentation. The fact that he was called full of wisdom and perfect in beauty by no means suggests that this is speaking of Satan. Perfect is used in a relative sense when not speaking of deity. God is merely shoving this in the kings face, as it was Tyrus who earlier attributed to herself this claim of perfect beauty, not God!

"Now, you son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus; And say unto Tyrus, O you that art situate at the entry of the sea, which are a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus says the Lord God; O Tyrus, YOU HAVE SAID I am of perfect beauty" (Ezek. 27:2-3).
v

Verse 14: "…your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."
 
Well, there it is! What further use of arguing? Surely this is not a human, but a cherub. This verse clearly proves that this is speaking of Satan and not some human, doesn’t it? Wrong paleface! It proves no such thing. Actually it proves to be a very bad translation. Let’s notice a few variations:

"On the day you were created, I placed you beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)
 
"In the day of your creation they established the anointed cherub’s booth. And I bestow you in the holy mountain of Alueim [God]" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)
 
"With an anointed cherub as guardian I place you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire" (The New Revised Standard Version)

"With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones" (The New American Bible)

Two things should be abundantly clear from these translations: (1) These verses are certainly a challenge to translate, and (2) The prince of Tyrus was NOT the cherub, himself, but rather the cherub was placed as a guardian BESIDE OR WITH the prince of Tyrus. A further proof that the prince of Tyrus cannot be, himself this cherub, is found in the grammar. Where KJV translates, "Thou art the anointed cherub…" the word translated "Thou" is the Hebrew word "ath" which can be either a pronoun or the object of a verb. But in Ezek. 28:14, it can’t be a pronoun because it is not the same gender as "cherub." The Hebrew word ath is feminine while the Hebrew word kruwg translated cherub, is masculine.
v

"By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."

Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can’t be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?

The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.

And finally we read this, "…and never shall you` be any more" ( Verse 19). Think how absurd it would be to say that Satan would "never be any more." Satan is still (27 centuries later) alive and well on planet Earth.

Well, there you have it. Satan was ALWAYS Satan. He was never an archangel/cherub/light-bringing/Lucifer/firefly.
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Farlsborough]

I appreciate the replies but can you see what I mean from the text that Kat has pasted? I'm not saying I think this gives any proof that satan was that cherub. But Ray makes it clear that it is the king being destroyed, not the cherub - but this is not what the scripture in the paragraph above seems to say.

What I'm asking is, if the passage says "I will destroy you, o covering cherub", on what basis can you say that it is not the cherub being destroyed?

[John from Kentucky]

I appreciate the replies but can you see what I mean from the text that Kat has pasted? I'm not saying I think this gives any proof that satan was that cherub. But Ray makes it clear that it is the king being destroyed, not the cherub - but this is not what the scripture in the paragraph above seems to say.

What I'm asking is, if the passage says "I will destroy you, o covering cherub", on what basis can you say that it is not the cherub being destroyed?

This is what happens when someone unlearned in the Scriptures tries to come up with some "truth"

They use one Scripture when the Scriptures tell us we must have two or three witnesses to establish a truth.  Also, the Scriptures say, " In the multitude of counselors there is safety."

They use one English translation in the difficult task of getting the meaning of an ancient Hebrew text translated into modern English.

If you consider a multitude of English translations, we learn that this cherub is being destroyed or cast out or displaced from the stones of fire or the mountain of fire, which symbolism is explained elsewhere in the Scriptures.

The cherub is not being disintegrated but is being removed from the mountain of fire.

God makes it impossible to understand His Scriptures without His Spirit.  God wants to hide His Truths from the Many.

He will let them twist and turn and misunderstand and misapply the Scriptures until they can justify there own interpretations.

There is a Scripture that says, " To this man will I look; one with a humble heart and who trembles at my word."

[Kat]

Hi Farlsborough,

Oh I get what you are saying now... interesting point and yes all the literal translations do say "destroy you, O covering cherub."

Eze 28:16 By the abundance of your merchandise They have filled your midst with violence, And you do sin, And I thrust you from the mount of Elohim, And I destroy you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire." (Concordant)

Eze 28:16  By the abundance of fly traffic, they fled thy midst with violence And thou didst sin,- So I cast thee as profane a out of the mountain of God. And destroyed thee O covering cherub, from amid the stones of fire: (Rotherham)

Eze 28:16  By the abundance of thy merchandise They have filled thy midst with violence, And thou dost sin, And I thrust thee from the mount of God, And I destroy thee, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. (Young's)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Yes Kat, those three translations, but there are many more.  Sometimes the exact, literal word does not give the complete meaning in English.

That verse does not say that the cherub is being destroyed.  (Period)  (End of thought)

It says destroyed--- or removed---or displaced---or taken away---from somewhere.  Somewhere being the stones of fire or mountain of fire.  Where else in the Scriptures is a burning mountain mentioned?  What does a burning mountain symbolize?  What does fire symbolize in the Scriptures?  By finding that out, one can learn from where the cherub is being removed.

There are many cherubs.  As Ray mentioned, it does not say that Satan was that cherub.  In fact, the Scriptures do not define Satan as a cherub but as a twisted serpent.  Nor is the King of Tyre that cherub---also as Ray brought out.

[Kat]

Yes John, I know what Ray said. 

It says destroyed--- or removed---or displaced---or taken away---from somewhere.

Maybe you can share where you got this? I have 15 translation and the only one that said something like what you are saying is the ERV (Easy-To-Read Version), not the most reliable one.

mercy, peace and love
Kathy

[John from Kentucky]

Yes John, I know what Ray said. 

It says destroyed--- or removed---or displaced---or taken away---from somewhere.

Maybe you can share where you got this? I have 15 translation and the only one that said something like what you are saying is the ERV (Easy-To-Read Version), not the most reliable one.

mercy, peace and love
Kathy

Ezekiel 28:16


...so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.  Revised Standard Version


...So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.  New International Version


...So I expelled you in disgrace from the mountain of God, and banished you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.  Holman Christian Standard Bible


...So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God.  I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire.  New Living Translation

[Kat]

Thanks John, nothing like Scripture to back up one's words, because without it, then it's just another man's/woman's opinion. Don't currently have one of those translations on my E-Sword, will be adding one though.

Mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi John,

I'm struggling to understand what this verse is saying  (Ezekial 28:16, as you and kat shared them). These translations make it seem confusing and as if the cherub is going to be removed or destroyed but.... okay so, I understand satan is not the cherub and I agree that God isn't going to destroy this "satan cherub" but rather the king. However, I don't understand the significance of removing the cherub from among the fiery stones?

I know the cherubs cover the mercy seat and so I'm seeing that they have very deep significance spiritually however aren't the fiery stones representative of the elect? Christ is the stone that we are crushed to powder by, why would God remove the cherub from amongst these stones? This "covering?"

I can see expelling the king who sits at the entrance of the sea (of humanity) from this same covering, but why remove the covering completely from the stones and the mountain too?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Love,
Alex

[John from Kentucky]

Hi John,

I'm struggling to understand what this verse is saying  (Ezekial 28:16, as you and kat shared them). These translations make it seem confusing and as if the cherub is going to be removed or destroyed but.... okay so, I understand satan is not the cherub and I agree that God isn't going to destroy this "satan cherub" but rather the king. However, I don't understand the significance of removing the cherub from among the fiery stones?

I know the cherubs cover the mercy seat and so I'm seeing that they have very deep significance spiritually however aren't the fiery stones representative of the elect? Christ is the stone that we are crushed to powder by, why would God remove the cherub from amongst these stones? This "covering?"

I can see expelling the king who sits at the entrance of the sea (of humanity) from this same covering, but why remove the covering completely from the stones and the mountain too?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Love,
Alex

I cannot answer your questions completely Alex.  As Ray mentioned, that Ezekiel Scripture and the one in Isaiah are enigmatic, hard to understand, which is why there are differences among the translators.

Also why we shouldn't get bent out of shape over them, over minor matters.

We should concentrate on basic, core truths.  For example, unlike what the Christian churches teach, Satan was not created perfect and by his free will went bad.  God created him evil from his very beginning.  Satan does not have free will.  Neither do we.

However, in the New Testament, we are told that our problems are not with flesh and blood but evil spirits in high places.  Angels sinned and were cast out from God.  However, they remain in power over things committed to them until Jesus will restore all things.  So this cherub was cast out of the mountain of God because he sinned as Ezek 28:16 states.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi John,

I'm struggling to understand what this verse is saying  (Ezekial 28:16, as you and kat shared them). These translations make it seem confusing and as if the cherub is going to be removed or destroyed but.... okay so, I understand satan is not the cherub and I agree that God isn't going to destroy this "satan cherub" but rather the king. However, I don't understand the significance of removing the cherub from among the fiery stones?

I know the cherubs cover the mercy seat and so I'm seeing that they have very deep significance spiritually however aren't the fiery stones representative of the elect? Christ is the stone that we are crushed to powder by, why would God remove the cherub from amongst these stones? This "covering?"

I can see expelling the king who sits at the entrance of the sea (of humanity) from this same covering, but why remove the covering completely from the stones and the mountain too?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Love,
Alex

I cannot answer your questions completely Alex.  As Ray mentioned, that Ezekiel Scripture and the one in Isaiah are enigmatic, hard to understand, which is why there are differences among the translators.

Also why we shouldn't get bent out of shape over them, over minor matters.

We should concentrate on basic, core truths.  For example, unlike what the Christian churches teach, Satan was not created perfect and by his free will went bad.  God created him evil from his very beginning.  Satan does not have free will.  Neither do we.

However, in the New Testament, we are told that our problems are not with flesh and blood but evil spirits in high places.  Angels sinned and were cast out from God.  However, they remain in power over things committed to them until Jesus will restore all things.  So this cherub was cast out of the mountain of God because he sinned as Ezek 28:16 states.

Thank you dear brother, much appreciated! I agree completely.

God bless,
Alex

[Ian 155]

No one is exempt from Judgement even the righteous.... this parable Speaks to the man of sin who sees himself on the same seat as God and the messenger gets dealt with for showing the King this illusion. (there are a few "and's" connectors)leading up to the judgement. (that is connecting the cherub to the King)

Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Whereby this O covering cherub,(was addressed) from the midst of the stones of fire.

Stones (hard & fast beings ?) are able to be caused to worship God, fire is judgement.


Matthew 3:9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We ...
biblehub.com/matthew/3-9.htm
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Luke 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do ...

And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Luke 19:40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the ...

But Jesus answered, "I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!" ... but they cannot; for as God can out of stones raise up children unto Abraham,  ...

So the messenger sent by God to the King was lying spirit and a (proud one)

There is only 1 witness for 1 cor 6v3 ?

However Peter gives us this ,the understanding is clearer in the easy version

ERV
1Pe 1:12  It was made clear to them that their service was not for themselves. They were serving you when they told about the things you have now heard. You heard them from those who told you the Good News with the help of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even the angels would like very much to know more about these things you were told.

KJV
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Angels ,cherubs do not actually know the reason they do what they do, they just follow orders so one can see with reference to a perfect/righteous Job he fell way short even though he was under the impression he was flawless.

V16 - In time God Said He WILL (desires to destroy all that Pride) not before he casts him out from his holiness (presence)

This cherubs function was in a covering capacity.he was not doing his job...