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All sin leads to death and...
Kat:
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on November 24, 2014, 11:16:09 PM ---Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!
--- End quote ---
Well Mike I believe your indication is that the elect must be judged in the Lake of fire if/because 'every' man's work is to be judged there. Well there are Scripture that state there will be a 'separation' at Christ's coming/return, where He will bring a few into the kingdom as spiritual beings that serve with Him in His reign over the world for the next age.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (eonian, CLV; age-abiding, Rotherham) fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It's every or all of the rest of the people "great and small" that go to the Lake of fire, because the elect are now part of the kingdom ruling/judging with Christ.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
v. 12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
v. 13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
v. 14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
v. 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
So as you can see by this Scripture that "every" is a relative term for those that are still physical/goats. All do have to be judged and the elect have already been during their physical lifetime, as some of the Scripture you posted indicate, that was there 'second death' in fire, but not the lake of fire.
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on November 24, 2014, 11:25:33 PM ---P.S alex , Jesus is the lake of fire, are God is a consuming FIRE... In Christ Mike
--- End quote ---
Mike, Yes of course Jesus is the Lake of fire, but the elect will have joined with Him and they will be sons of God and Christ will do the judging through them "or know ye not that, the saints, shall judge the world?" (1Cor 6:2). Here is where Ray expressly states that the elect are 'the' lake of fire with Christ.
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).
And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.
"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
To add to what Kat said, in ray's paper on Gehenna he states this:
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm
Gehenna fire is first and foremost for Christ's disciples (the Elect), and is first taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount to His disciples. It is therefore not literal fire, nor is it everlasting fire. "Gehenna fire" (Matt. 18:9 is also called "eonian [NOT 'everlasting'] fire" in Matt. 18:8, and also in Matt. 25:41 where this eonian fire prepared for the devil and his ministers will be judged in the resurrection to Judgment in "The Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15 & 21:8). The Gehenna fire, eonian fire, lake of fire, are all the Judgment of God. These fires are all the same ONE fire that come from the same ONE God, and "Our [One] God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
and..
Notice how Paul's statement is in perfect agreement with that of Jesus: "And if your right eye offend you, [you] pluck it out... And if your right hand offend you, [you] cut it off..." (Matt. 5:29-30).
Isn't that amazing? That's how Jesus Judges US. He helps us judge OURSELVES! It is voluntary. But if we do not volunteer to judge ourselves, guess what? "...for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish [voluntarily] and not that your whole body should be cast [Gk: ballo-'throw violently or intensely' against your will] into Gehenna [fire]" (Ver. 30)
"For if we would judge ourselves we should not be judged... we should not be condemned with the world" (I Cor. 11:31-32).
No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire."
We can either volunteer to stop sinning now, in this life, or God will volunteer us to stop sinning later, in the resurrection to Judgment. Yes, of course, it will be God in us regardless of which Judgment we find ourselves.
Now we learn something very specific from Christ's statements regarding Gehenna fire in this Sermon on the Mount, but we must look very closely to see this truth.
One of the ways that Jesus Judges His disciples is through spiritual "Gehenna fire." If one doesn't "pluck out an eye" or "cut off a hand," the result will be that "your whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Matt. 5:30). Read it carefully now: By not plucking out one's eye or cutting off one's hand, the result is that one's whole body is cast into Gehenna fire. What then does plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand represent, but the fact that only part of one's body at a time is being destroyed in Gehenna fire. We can either have the different parts of our carnal mind burned by this spiritual Gehenna fire, and reign with Christ, or we can have our whole body burned by this Gehenna fire and miss out on reigning with Christ.
This harmonizes perfectly with what Kat said about those not found written on the scroll of life/book of life. They end up in the lake of fire. Those who overcome (The elect) are not hurt by it, they cannot be hurt by it, because THEY ARE the lake of fire and they were judged already in Gehenna which contains the same fire that they now have become.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall NOT be hurt of the second death.
because again... "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (I Cor. 11:31)
In Christ,
Alex
lilitalienboi16:
Hi Ian,
I found this in matthew about gehenna fire that matches up nicely with some of the verses kat shared and what ray said.
1Jn 5:15 And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him."
1Jn 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that."
1Jn 5:17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death."
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell[lit. Gehenna].
Ray's words:
No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire."
We can either volunteer to stop sinning now, in this life, or God will volunteer us to stop sinning later, in the resurrection to Judgment. Yes, of course, it will be God in us regardless of which Judgment we find ourselves.
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Seems all these above things are very closely related.
Just more food for thought.
Alex
Kat:
--- Quote from: Rick on November 24, 2014, 10:55:45 PM ---I personally don’t see any important’s of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.
If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God’s sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.
--- End quote ---
Rick, I can understand where you are coming from about the sovereignty of God, no we should not sorry, but you sound like we have absolutely no involvement in what's going on at all. We are not just spectators and do not sit back and wait on God to tell us what to do or we will never do anything. I do not believe we actually audibly hear God, and certainly when we do bear fruit it is of the Spirit, but the Spirit of God is working in our own mind to motivate us and bring us to Him.
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
If we have the Spirit indwelling God is teaching US how to serve and obey Him, and that is by Him changing the way WE think and do things, making US into a "new man/woman."
Eph 4:24 And you should put on the new man, who according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.
God is working in and through the elect for their benefit, for the chosen few He is teaching/preparing them to think and understand His will and THEY will do good works by the Spirit "in them," that is the process, that is how the elect learn by 'doing' the good works.
1Tim 6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
v. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1Ti 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.
v. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share,
v. 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
--- Quote ---There is not a person alive or that ever lived or ever will live that would not commit that sin which leads to death, we know this because scripture tells us this, when it says.
--- End quote ---
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that
Now about this Scripture from the op, understand that particular Scripture is speaking of a "brother" or somebody that believers these truths, not everybody in the world. Now what I think that may be confusing is that people think that anybody called a "brother" is an elect... there is no way of knowing that. There are many that hear these truths and seem to embrace them, yet do not continue. There no way to say what happens with most that have come through here, but I do know of some that have gone on to a different understanding.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
v. 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
I already mentioned the parable of the sower and the seed and how it indicates that most that accept these truths do not continue in them. I believe that is what this Scripture is speaking of, those who are being drawn away and deceived. Now it is true that the very elect will not be deceived. But it is mentioned in Scripture and who is to say if God may use that very process of somebody being swayed by deception, then being pulled back by another brother concerned for them, to teach them how subtle deception can be.
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Just giving you something to think about here.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
rick:
--- Quote from: Kat on November 25, 2014, 06:11:29 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on November 24, 2014, 10:55:45 PM ---I personally don’t see any important’s of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.
If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God’s sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.
--- End quote ---
but the Spirit of God is working in our own mind to motivate us and bring us to Him.
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
God has complete sovereignty over all things, there is no getting around that fact. Whatever one is doing is a direct result of God’s intentions. No one gets to be a spectator, everyone is an active participant in Gods plan.
If we had free will then we could be a spectator but our will is subjected to Gods will and what God wills in our life, will come to pass.
Everything we do has been planed down to the smallest of detail and not one detail can be eluded.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
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