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Author Topic: All sin leads to death and...  (Read 9658 times)

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Kat

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2014, 11:50:54 AM »


Okay Rick, that is a good basic premise to have... but we do not see the workings of God, that's why free will is so easy to believe, yet we few have come to see it's a totally false concept. Though God has what He wants us to be planned out, we are mostly unaware that what that is, it's only when we look back that we can usually see what He was doing with us.

The point I want to make is that yes there are causes that bring about what we do, we just don't see them, so we are operating from a perspective of "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling," even though it is "God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Php 2:12-13).

We cannot be lackadaisical or too laid back, "Strive G75 to enter through the narrow gate" does not seem to be a laid back term He used there to me. 

G75 agōnizomai - to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

I guess I'm thinking we need to be careful not to have an attitude that's lukewarm, because we know what Christ said about that.

Rev 3:15  "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
v. 16  So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Anyway I just wanted to get across that we can't be unconcerned and just think God is doing this... yes He is, but we are "working out our own salvation" and have to "strive to enter through the narrow gate." As Ray said it...

"Iím going to show you today that ďgetting savedĒ is the hardest most difficult thing that any human being in the history of the universe will ever do. There is nothing harder than ďgetting savedĒ. Are you hearing me? It is the hardest thing any human being will ever do in all of eternity. Itís the ultimate hard task.
But, when you read the scriptures, it doesnít sound that way."

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3849.0

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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rick

  • Guest
Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2014, 11:41:12 PM »

Hi Kat,


You bring out some great points, however my awareness of Godís sovereignty is constantly on my mind.

Whatís amazing to me is that I only came to this website as a result of a ( great fear ) of hell which I once believed in but no longer do.

I found much more here than I expected or maybe even wanted to. I believed it was me searching out the truth but through hind sight I can see how God used a false doctrine to instill a great fear in me which caused me to search out the truth.

You had mentioned not being lackadaisical, what Iím trying to understand, knowing that God is completely sovereign and that our will is completely subjected to His will, is it possible for anyone to be lackadaisical ?  Or in other words can anyone thrwat Gods purpose or intentions ?

Before reading Rays papers I never understood these wonderful truths of just how much God  really is in control, complete control, and I find comfort, security and peace of mind knowing these truths.

I discovered my entire life has been directed by God not me, I know that now, I realize everything I have ever experienced in my life came straight out from the council of God before the earth ever was.

When I read the word of God, I see many scriptures that are telling me what to do and how to do it, I have already concluded that whatever God is telling me to do, I canít do it for the life of me.

Although I canít do Godís will for the life of me His will is being done in me and through me because God determined what my life will be, where Iíll live and how far Iíll travel from where I live, what type of job Iíll have, who Iíll marry, etc. etc. before the foundation of the earth was ever laid.

I think when one understands the sovereignty of God ,the easier it is to understand that believing in free will is a false belief but its God who determines who will believe they have free will and those who will come to the knowledge of knowing they have in no wise free will.

So then I conclude that whatever Iím doing must be the will of God, thus fulfilling His every intentions in my life without ever realizing it because I cannot detect God through my five senses.
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Mike Gagne

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2014, 01:48:47 AM »

Alex and Kat! How can we have two different lakes off fire? LRay said there all the same...Gehenna fire is first and foremost for Christ's disciples (the Elect), and is first taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount to His disciples. It is therefore not literal fire, nor is it everlasting fire. "Gehenna fire" (Matt. 18:9 is also called "eonian [NOT 'everlasting'] fire" in Matt. 18:8, and also in Matt. 25:41 where this eonian fire prepared for the devil and his ministers will be judged in the resurrection to Judgment in "The Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15 & 21:8). The Gehenna fire, eonian fire, lake of fire, are all the Judgment of God. These fires are all the same ONE fire that come from the same ONE God, and "Our [One] God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29). So you guys really never read what I wrote! Now your saying opposite of what LRay teaches, that there are different fires that we go through! Then if that's the case we must have two different gods...Ray says the fire is the same fire and the scriptures say that God does not change....For I am the Lord, I change not; (Malachi‬ 3‬:6‬ KJV)...Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews‬ 13‬:8‬ KJV)...so we know He's the same lake of fire!... Now alex said that the elect will not be harmed by the lake of fire! So alex are you saying that God is a respecter of person?.... The scriptures say different....Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Acts‬ 10‬:34‬ KJV)....For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans‬ 2‬:11‬ KJV)...when the elect become the lake of fire it does not change, it will still be Christ!!... Now that will take some discernment.....  P.S the lake of fire isn't something to hurt you! It's to heal you!  In Christ Mike
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 01:57:40 AM by Mike Gagne »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2014, 02:14:02 AM »

To those of us whom God has called and chosen we see His sovereignty everyday of our lives and in every part of His creation. From the good to the evil. God is creator of all, Lord of all, and in control of all. We see demonstrated in our lives when we obey and bring forth good fruit just that its all God. Even before we bring forth good fruit it is all God. We are His workmanship. When we have a desire, a hunger, like a fire, to draw near to God as much as humanly possible, this is God! When we desire to know Him above all things. People often asked ray in emails (I should know, I was one of those people once upon a time, nothing more than a boy back then), and even in the studies he did,  how do we overcome sin in our lives? Ray talked about coming to a place where we get so sick of doing a particular sin that it literally nauseates us to think about it (Sin should not reign in us). Of course, this could not happen without God bringing us to that place and ray also made that point; nevertheless, when God puts that desire in us to stop wanting to sin, even though we can't, when He puts that desire in us to stop sinning, when He puts that desire in us to want to obey Him,  When He puts that desire in us to obey Him, even though we can't of our own selves, we see God "working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure." The purpose of all the admonishments and warnings against becoming complacent is because none of us know what God's plan is. Yes, no one can go against God's plan, His intention, His purpose, and almost all go against His will daily, and yes this is all of God, but because 'you oh man' know not what is on the morrow, you cannot afford to become complacent, not if you want to win the prize. If you want to overcome. If you want to rule with Him. If you want to reign. If you walk after Him and obey Him, this is His power being made manifest in your life. If you become complacent and do not, cannot, will not obey Him, this too is His doing (For faith is a gift and what have you that you did not receive?). Now, when we sin, it is not God who makes us sin, but we are drawn away of our own lusts which begin in the heart but because the creation was subject to vanity through reason of Him, God is responsible. He created us with weak hearts and it takes the power of God to do good. So as Paul would say, "who are you, oh man, that responds to God? Shall the thing that is created be more than its creator? Therefor it is not of him that willith nor of him that goeth but of God who shows mercy." So you run a race knowing only one can win it. You set aside every weight and you strive to enter the narrow gate because you don't know what God has planned for your life. You don't know if you will overcome but if you've come this far in your life its because God has put these things on your heart and that is a very good thing!! If you strive to enter the narrow gate its because of God. So do not become lukewarm! Though it is not possible for the elect to be deceived or lost, you don't know who the elect are, you don't know if that is you! So run!! Run! Buy the whole field and sell everything you have. Do not slumber, don't let the Lord return and find you fast asleep at the watch. Make sure your lamp is burning bright, don't forget the oil! Study to show thyself approved! This is why the apostles where always teaching the saints and admonishing them. The encouragement and uplifting they showed for one another is a tremendous example of how we should encourage each other also. How we should treat fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Those called and chosen by God. We 'agape' the world. We let God sort the it out and we don't return evil with evil giving place for the vengeance of God. We overcome evil with good for God is our defense; but, we 'phileo' our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Romans 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Romans 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Romans 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Romans 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


1 Cor. 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1 Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1 Cor. 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1 Cor. 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1 Cor. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Cor. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Cor 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.
1 Cor 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.
1 Cor 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
1 Cor 16:16 That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.
1 Cor 16:17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.
1 Cor 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.
1 Cor 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
1 Cor 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.
1 Cor 16:21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.
1 Cor 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
1 Cor 16:23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
1 Cor 16:24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.


Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Ephesians 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you

Now these things could continue... but I suppose this post has become rather long and will grow legs and walk away if I give it anymore life! So I will end it here. I will only add that the parable of the talents that Christ taught is very reminiscent for me of becoming lukewarm and complacent (Matthew 25:14-30) even calling the servant "slothful."

All the glory and honor to God. "Ye will know them by their fruit."

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2014, 02:18:50 AM »


Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!

Well Mike I believe your indication is that the elect must be judged in the Lake of fire if/because 'every' man's work is to be judged there. Well there are Scripture that state there will be a 'separation' at Christ's coming/return, where He will bring a few into the kingdom as spiritual beings that serve with Him in His reign over the world for the next age.

Mat 25:33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41  "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (eonian, CLV; age-abiding, Rotherham) fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

It's every or all of the rest of the people "great and small" that go to the Lake of fire, because the elect are now part of the kingdom ruling/judging with Christ.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
v. 12  and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
v. 13  and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
v. 14  and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
v. 15  and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

So as you can see by this Scripture that "every" is a relative term for those that are still physical/goats. All do have to be judged and the elect have already been during their physical lifetime, as some of the Scripture you posted indicate, that was there 'second death' in fire, but not the lake of fire.

P.S  alex , Jesus is the lake of fire, are God is a consuming FIRE... In Christ Mike

Mike, Yes of course Jesus is the Lake of fire, but the elect will have joined with Him and they will be sons of God and Christ will do the judging through them "or know ye not that, the saints, shall judge the world?" (1Cor 6:2). Here is where Ray expressly states that the elect are 'the' lake of fire with Christ.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------

"Öthey were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christís divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"

And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

  Hi Kat! Are you saying that once your called and chosen you just sit back and relax and wait for the resurrection and that's  when you will be made Christ like? That's what it's sounds like your saying! That's what the church does, they just wait because Jesus has done it all. Is this just another church?  Jesus doesn't come to the elect and do a work,I don't think that's the way it goes.  If Jesus calls you then chooses you I think when He comes to you, He is still a consuming fire! The lake of fire, He's doing a Circumsizion of the heart!  I think everything I said is in line with what LRay teaches and what the bible tells us!!  I am saying the same thing Lray says! You are either in the fire now or your in the fire after the resurrection! I don't care what fire it is, it is all the same,it is CHRIST...!!
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Ian 155

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2014, 06:33:04 AM »

We are all guilty and MUST die (spiritually)‎John 12:25

"all full blown sin leads to/is a death sentence.

I believe the sin not leading to death is when one "wanders"from the truth after being reborn (spiritually)... Peter wandered Paul "brought" him back

We are also instructed to come back to our "senses"
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2014, 10:47:43 AM »


Hi Kat! Are you saying that once your called and chosen you just sit back and relax and wait for the resurrection and that's  when you will be made Christ like? That's what it's sounds like your saying! That's what the church does, they just wait because Jesus has done it all. Is this just another church?  Jesus doesn't come to the elect and do a work,I don't think that's the way it goes.  If Jesus calls you then chooses you I think when He comes to you, He is still a consuming fire! The lake of fire, He's doing a Circumsizion of the heart!  I think everything I said is in line with what LRay teaches and what the bible tells us!!  I am saying the same thing Lray says! You are either in the fire now or your in the fire after the resurrection! I don't care what fire it is, it is all the same,it is CHRIST...!!

You must not read many of my posts if that's what you think I was saying....

Quote
So you guys really never read what I wrote!

I most certainly did.

Quote
How can we have two different lakes off fire? ...
Now your saying opposite of what LRay teaches, that there are different fires that we go through! Then if that's the case we must have two different gods...

Heb 12:29  "For our God is a consuming fire."

As Christ is one with the Father, He is also this "consuming fire" and that is where the judgment on the house of God comes from now in this age. When the elect join with Christ when He returns, they also will become one with God and be a "consuming fire" and that will become the lake of fire that judges the world in the next age.

Quote
Now alex said that the elect will not be harmed by the lake of fire! So alex are you saying that God is a respecter of person?....

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Rev 2:11  "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html ---------------------------

WE ARE GODíS BUILDING

In what "certain ways" are we "like" Godís "building?"

"Know ye not that YE [thatís us] ARE the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU" (I Cor. 3:16). "For ye are the temple of the living GodÖ" II Cor. 6:16).

Notice that "ye are the temple of God" is another metaphor. In what certain ways are we like the temple of God? Answer:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief corner stone; in Whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together grows unto AN HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord: In Whom YE [that's us again] ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Eph. 2:19:23).

The Lord of heaven and earth "dwells not in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24). Where does God then dwell? Are you ready for this? This is heavy stuff!

"If a man love Me, He will keep My words: and my Father will love him, and WE [both Jesus Christ AND His Father] WILL COME UNTO HIM [this is US if we love God], AND MADE OUR ABODE [our home] WITH HIM" (John 14:23)! WOW!

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------

GODíS MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE

I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.

Ponder this:

Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).

We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).

We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).

God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

God promises us that, "Öthe saints shall JUDGE THE WORLDÖ" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!

God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:

"Öthey were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christís divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"

And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

The lake of fire is not in this age, it is in the next age, because it is symbolically formed by Christ and the elect, they are the lake, they are the temple, they are New Jerusalem - the kingdom coming down with Christ when He returns.

Rev 21:2  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The elect will judge the world by the consuming Holy Spirit/fire of God in them. Just like Christ represents the Father perfectly, we will represent Christ perfectly in the next age... it's all by/from God the Father.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 12:56:01 PM by Kat »
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rick

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2014, 12:47:31 PM »

We are all guilty and MUST die (spiritually)‎John 12:25

"all full blown sin leads to/is a death sentence.

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

also did you mean ( carnal ) not ( spiritual )
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Ian 155

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2014, 04:02:11 PM »

We are all guilty and MUST die (spiritually)‎John 12:25

"all full blown sin leads to/is a death sentence.

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

also did you mean ( carnal ) not ( spiritual )



No I meant all must die (to the flesh) ....our own understanding,CARNAL WAYS,AND THOUGHTS

otherwise one cannot live -  spirit BEGETS spirit
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rick

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2014, 08:04:33 PM »

Hello Ian,

Say, everyone has one issue or another in this life, so at the time of ones death, they will still have some issue remaining, now we know that when Christ returns those who are still alive on earth will still have some issue but will be change in the twinkling of and eye.

Does that change include losing any and all carnality and becoming completely spiritual , not that being completely spiritual means being sin free because we also know Satan is spiritual but has no righteousness in him.

Now if your answer is yes we lose all carnality but however we are sin free unlike Satan then Christ must have given those a new heart instantly and now no longer desires to sin.

Now that they have a new heart but are left with the memory of an experience of good and evil have now become the image of God.

Now look at Adam and Eve, they were completely carnal minded but had not really sinned until they stretch forth their hand and did eat from the tree of good and evil. My point is one can learn to do right but as long as we are carnal minded the potential to sin is always with us.

Unless God gives us a new heart it matter not how much we learn to do righteousness because again the potential to sin remains.

old heart = bad boy.....new heart = good boy

What do you say to these things.   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 08:24:28 PM by Rick »
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Ian 155

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2014, 04:55:21 AM »

You may or may not understand ....sin is carnality, which is death.It is Blasphemy to construe spirit with Flesh (carnal) interpretation.

Jesus said MY Words are SPIRIT and they are Life so any other interpretation of his word is DEATH.

By interpreting his words as physical/literal we bring him down to carnal level.  Rom 10:6 and Gen 44v22

I believe that is why the miracle of sight is needed, so just as the blind man prayed, begged "open my eyes that i may see" we need to do likewise

In the case of those elected/chosen ? Yes... Now is the transformation/now is salvation albeit still a work in progress - Matt 16 vs 28.

Let me put it this way you cannot/ will not be able to resist the holy Spirit (those that are chosen), those not yet chosen ... remain "stiff necked" 

Your thoughts will change you wont know how...your attitude, your way of living and you will not have a clue as to what happened (He gives his glory to no one, nor will you be able to boast in this work) then, looking back over what you have lived you will see why what and when all this happened. the concerns and things of this present world will become "strangely dim" (this is dying) I believe.

There are instances where I believe we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit...this will bring about conviction not condemnation.This is ,once again I believe, a sin not leading to death (as one is already dead to the things of this place)

Without Judging, I believe the "church" has got the cart before the horse so to speak, what they are saying and teaching re confessing the word and it coming to pass is truth, but they have not the power/authority to use the word, as the Spirit of truth has not been revealed in them yet so they are kinda "jumping the fence" instead of entering by the narrow gate.
Acts 19v15

This authority and the power of his resurrection, comes thru/by suffering and (dying)

Once again I don't know if Ray has spoken on these things, this is my testimony
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 05:01:12 AM by Ian 155 »
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Kat

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2014, 03:26:17 PM »

Say, everyone has one issue or another in this life, so at the time of ones death, they will still have some issue remaining, now we know that when Christ returns those who are still alive on earth will still have some issue but will be change in the twinkling of and eye.

Does that change include losing any and all carnality and becoming completely spiritual , not that being completely spiritual means being sin free because we also know Satan is spiritual but has no righteousness in him.

The elect upon resurrection will join Christ in the air... they will not fly up there, they will be born into the kingdom, changed and given glorious Spirit bodies "...that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6) and they will rise up to join with Christ, who is Spirit... think about how Christ was after His resurrection.

1Thess 4:17  then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten (guarantee/earnest 2Cor 1:22; 5:5 - promise Heb 9:15; 2Tim 1:1) us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

To become "incorruptible" - that cannot be bribed; inflexibly, just and upright; and "undefiled" - pure at resurrection, then they will become one with God, they will no longer be subject to the flesh. That certainly means they will be completely spiritual and totally free from sin, that's the only way they could rule with Christ. That process has/must already start in this life, the elect are prepared now and will be ready for the first resurrection.

Now if your answer is yes we lose all carnality but however we are sin free unlike Satan then Christ must have given those a new heart instantly and now no longer desires to sin.

Now that they have a new heart but are left with the memory of an experience of good and evil have now become the image of God.

Now look at Adam and Eve, they were completely carnal minded but had not really sinned until they stretch forth their hand and did eat from the tree of good and evil. My point is one can learn to do right but as long as we are carnal minded the potential to sin is always with us.

Unless God gives us a new heart it matter not how much we learn to do righteousness because again the potential to sin remains.

old heart = bad boy.....new heart = good boy

What do you say to these things.

Those that are begotten and given the promise/earnest/guarantee in this life, who have received the Spirit indwelling, will begin the process of becoming a new man/woman now. The Spirit indwelling circumcises heart and renews the spirit/mind/heart, so the person is most certainly changed into a new creature/creation (Gal 6:15).

2Co 5:17  Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Eph 4:23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
v. 24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Rom 2:29  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

When the Spirit is indwelling sin is no longer held against the elect, they belong to Christ (Gal 3:29; 2Cor 10:7). Though the elect are still in the flesh now and do sin, but it does not have dominion over them (Rom 6:14), and all their sins have already been covered by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

Col 2:12  buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
v. 13  And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
v. 14  having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

1John 2:12  I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.

Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8  blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

1John 3:5  And ye know that He was manifested to take away sins; and in Him is no sin.
v.6  Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither knoweth Him.

v. 9  Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because His seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 02:12:02 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All sin leads to death and...
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2014, 11:55:31 PM »

Let's end with that.

Somehow I feel like I am being led through a maze in this thread.  Seems to me to have started with a theological assumption and continued through several iterations of agenda.  That's enough.

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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