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[Farlsborough]

Hi folks,
So, I'm a few chapters in to an interesting book - The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. It's by an English Professor and ex-lesbian/ardent feminist/leftist who converted to Christianity.

Now, I don't know what she thinks about hell etc. but I don't want to start picking apart the beliefs she has come to; it seems like a real, spiritual conversion has taken place there, and in fact many of the things she has said so far come quite close to Ray's teaching: I.e. the folly of a "sinner's prayer" conversion and how arduous and costly true salvation is.

The thing I want to discuss is the order of obedience vs. understanding. The author describes a time when she didn't understand or feel, but she made an effort to will to do God's will, to change her life to come into line with God's guidance. Through this, she started to understand.

Ray mentions something about this, although for him he seemed to find it easier to obey, as if his sin held no power over him anymore. So should we exhort people to obey first, to allow God to begin working with them? Or do you feel that exposition of truth is the most important duty? Or are they equal?

[Dave in Tenn]

Th 1:7,8  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

It's an interesting question.  To me, knowledge and obedience are like two legs walking.  But also to me, the 'leading leg' or the first step is "knowledge".  It's just that there is no 'walking' without both legs, and each step strengthens the next--knowledge produces obedience, obedience produces clearer knowledge. 

What also strikes me in these verses is that "obedience" is to the "gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" and to the "gospel of God".  That certainly wasn't what I was taught way back when.  Do Kennedy and Hagee know (understand) the "gospel of God and Our Lord Jesus Christ?"  They have not a clue, though both are (or were) fine fellows.

[rick]

The thing I want to discuss is the order of obedience vs. understanding. The author describes a time when she didn't understand or feel, but she made an effort to will to do God's will, to change her life to come into line with God's guidance. Through this, she started to understand.

Hello Farlsborough


we know that no one comes to God on their own, God drags us to Himself. There is not one who seeks after God, no not one ,  we also know we don’t have free will either, so if we make an effort to do God’s will isn’t it God who is leading the person  ?

Because we do not have free will how is it possible to change our life ? Or if we can change our lives at will then where is the sovereignty of God ? See what I mean.

She sounds like she is operating under the belief she has free will, if you noticed she is doing it all leaving God out of the equation.

[Farlsborough]

Thanks for the replies. Dave, for clarification, when you refer to the gospel of Jesus Christ, are you referring to salvation for all mankind?

Still trying to pin down the technicalities; it seems to me that "the gospel of the kingdom" refers to the calling and work of the elect, whereas the "gospel of Jesus Christ" refers to the reconciliation of the kosmos. Both two sides of the same coin of course!

[Dave in Tenn]

I think that's basically right.   All the 'gospels' are the same.  Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom.  Ray did a study on that.  It's in the audios--maybe a transcript too.  I don't have time to look right now. 

Here's a few more passages that seem to me to be speaking of what comes 'first'--knowledge or obedience..

1Jn_4:10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Tit_1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

1Jn_4:6,7  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

There's the "gospel of the Kingdom" in those verses too, when you "know" how to look.