bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?  (Read 2135 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mariano

  • Guest
John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
« on: December 02, 2014, 02:47:52 PM »

Hello everybody,

Did you know there are two variants in Revelation 13:1, the one saying “I stood upon the sand of the sea” and the other saying “he stood upon the sand of the sea”, where the “he” mentioned is the dragon of Revelation 12? Furthermore, not few manuscripts with the later variant have that phrase as Revelation 12:18…

Here are the English versions included in Biblegateway.com which follow the two variants:

John stands upon the sand of the sea: KJ21, AMP, Darby, GNV, Phillips, JUB, KJV, AKJV, MEV, NKJV, NLV, WEB, WE, YLT

The dragon stands upon the sand of the sea: ASV, CEB, CJB, CEV, DLNT, DRA, ERV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GW, GNT, HCSB, ISV, LEB, TLB, MSG, NOG, NABRE, NASB, NCV, NET, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, NRSV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, OJB, RSV, RSVCE, Voice, WYC

Also, in Jesus parable of the two house builders, we have “sand” mentioned in Matthew 7:26 and “earth”/“arable land”/”ground” (γῆ) in Luke 6:49. Furthermore, in both cases the faulty house is built nearby the river (ποταμός) and not the sea…

Any comment on this?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 03:05:08 PM by Mariano »
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2014, 03:29:30 PM »


I do not see the significance of this matter.

The beast was coming up out of the sea and thus came to stand on the sand of the sea shore.

John was already there on the sand looking behind himself.
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2014, 03:53:49 PM »


I do not see the significance of this matter.

The beast was coming up out of the sea and thus came to stand on the sand of the sea shore.

John was already there on the sand looking behind himself.

Definitely not the case, John. The two variants are exclusive to each other: it is John standing upon the sand of the sea or it is the dragon. Go to Biblegateway and check it out for yourself. Also, the two variants in Jesus parable of the two house builders suggest that it is irrelevant whether the faulty one was built on the sand or on the soil.

John makes a very valid point though. I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss him

Also to your original post, its not a stream in both cases. In matthew, the word for SAND has this as its definition:

G285

ἄμμος
ammos
am'-mos
Perhaps from G260; sand (as heaped on the beach): - sand.

A beach is where the sand meets the sea.

Definition of beach according to google:

beach
bēCH/Submit
noun
1.
a pebbly or sandy shore, especially by the ocean between high- and low-water marks.

In Christ,
Alex
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

  • Guest
Re: John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2014, 04:16:58 PM »

Did you know there are two variants in Revelation 13:1, the one saying “I stood upon the sand of the sea” and the other saying “he stood upon the sand of the sea”, where the “he” mentioned is the dragon of Revelation 12? Furthermore, not few manuscripts with the later variant have that phrase as Revelation 12:18…

Hi Mariano,

All of the different translations you mention of who it was speaking of in the verse are of little value, we know that the translators did not understand what they translating. But Ray did go into this very thing about John standing upon the sand of the sea in the LoF article no. 13.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------------

But how can I say that this beast out of the sea is something that already existed at the time of John’s writing? Was he not to write about "…things which must shortly COME TO PASS…"? (Rev. 1:1). Is this not then making all that John sees, things that are all in the future from the time of his vision? No. Everything in this book is part of Christ’s testimony, "which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME." It is needful that we read several verses now to catch the significance of, from what perspective it was that John wrote this prophecy:

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ [‘which IS, WAS, and WILL BE’].

I was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND ME a great voice, as of a trumpet [a trumpet is a symbol for a POWERFUL MESSAGE],

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are [they ALREADY existed at the time that John writes about them] in Asia…

And I TURNED to see the voice that spoke with me. And BEING TURNED, I saw seven golden candlesticks." (Rev. 1:9-12).

Ah yes, John heard this trumpet (or message) "behind him" and therefore, had to TURN BACK in order to see, hear, and understand the message! And so John writes about the things he sees "BEHIND" him (1:10), and "…things which must be HEREAFTER."

And so it is in this context that John said: "I stood upon the sand of the sea…" Did you not notice what we just read concerning John and ourselves? Let’s read it again:

"I John, who ALSO am YOUR BROTHER, and COMPANION IN TRIBULATION [persecution], AND IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE [endurance] of Jesus Christ…" (Rev. 1:9).

The very elect are all "companions and brothers" in our quest for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Where Jesus walked, WE WILL WALK. Where John walked, WE WILL WALK. Where John stood, we all have stood or will yet stand.
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 06:40:05 PM »


Just because they are older manuscripts does not always mean they are accurate. Now Ray had studied these things in dept and presented them in his articles, either you agree with what he said are you don't, that's your business. We don't even think that you have to agree with what Ray taught, but whether Ray was right or not is certainly not something that we will take up here on the forum. There is plenty we can agree on to discuss.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 06:42:24 PM by Kat »
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 07:21:35 PM »


Paul said to the Thessalonians: "Examine everything; cling to what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Now, how could anyone cling to what is good out of that "everything" without doing the examination thereof?

I totally agree with this.

Quote
That's why I have submitted scriptural facts for everyone to check out and left it there.

You started a thread, with the title that was a question if something that Ray has taught on was right or not, now that is going quite a bit further than just "submitted scriptural facts."

People have their own interpretation of the Scripture and the forum rules it seems.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 08:10:37 PM »

Alex,

I think you confussed a little bit what I say in my original post regarding Matthew 7:26 and Luke 6:49, which are parallel passages. I'll say it here another way for clarification:

Both passages have the Greek word ποταμός (potamós), which principal and leading meaning is "river" (hence the name of the animal called in Greek "hypopotamos", which mean "horse of river" or "river horse").

So, most assuredly, Jesus had in mind the flood or the stream of a river, not of the sea. Now, in the book of Revelation symbols are quite specific and, in fact, both in the trumpets series and the vials series you have the second of both addressed to the sea and the third thereof addressed to the rivers and the fountains of waters. Remember what Paul said to Timothy and what Ray himself so many times stressed: "Hold fast the pattern of sound words (...)" (2 Timothy 1:13).

What I pointed out in my original post (though maybe not in the clearest manner) is that Jesus speaks of sand (ἄμμος) in Matthew 7:26 and of the ground or soil (γῆ) in Luke 6:49.

Now, regarding the symbol spoken of by John in the book of Revelation, it is not just "the sand" (as in Matthew 7:26) but rather "the sand of the seashore", which has another occurrence in the book, specifically in chapter 20, verse 8:

And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (KJV)

So here John uses "the sand of the sea" as a symbol of a unnumerable multitude. And guess what happens when you search for every occurrence of the word "sand" both in the OT and the NT... It is almost always connected to the descendance of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, which is spoken of by God as going to be "as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore" (see Genesis 22:17 and other passages).

I hope I have been clearer now regarding my original post.

God bless.

Hi Mariano,

I am not confused. You stated in your original post:

"Also, in Jesus parable of the two house builders, we have “sand” mentioned in Matthew 7:26 and “earth”/“arable land”/”ground” (γῆ) in Luke 6:49. Furthermore, in both cases the faulty house is built nearby the river (ποταμός) and not the sea…"

I guess I just don't understand why the word "patmos" has to be interpreted as meaning the houses are near a river? Why so quick to dismiss the sand being sand from a beach, implying that this house could be near the sea? Can Oceans and rivers be near one another? Are they related in anyway?

I also don't understand why you dismiss JFK's very valid observation. John is on the sand, looking back, and he see's this beast rising out of the sea. Where does the beast go as he rises out of the sea? Onto the sand! That's how you come out of the sea, from the water onto the shore--the sand. Maybe I'm just not sure what you are trying to say through this whole discussion here.

Alex

Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.081 seconds with 26 queries.