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Rhys 🕊

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 04:19:17 PM »

Good point about the judging. I am referring to this sort:

Mat 7:1  "Judge not, that you be not judged.
Mat 7:2  For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3  Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4  Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
Mat 7:5  You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.


Joh 7:24  Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

Using right judgement is what it's about than just what things appear to be, something I am still guilty of now and then.

Need to see the bigger picture and that is what the cop saw

Rhys
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Gina

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2014, 08:43:04 PM »

But I’m telling you, why you’ll only see a speck. Because you’re not living by faith and your living by sight and the carnality of the mind, through sight and what you see. When that sight is impeded you don’t see very well, so you think your brother has a speck in his eye, he does not. He has a beam in his eye too. But you can’t see it with a beam in your eye. Are you following this? You can’t see it with a beam in your eye. If you get that beam out and you say, 'OH! I thought it was a speck, it’s a beam!'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

Jesus didn't say not judge at all.  He said, You hypocrite! [to his own disciples] First get the beam out of your eye and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

They were yet carnal.  They had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they were unconverted.   They were totally blind.  [Jesus said they were blind:  "If the blind lead the blind both will fall into a ditch.]  They didn't have the mentality, or the mind of Christ, with which to judge their brother correctly because they had yet to judge themselves.

Is that about right, Rhys?

« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 09:04:23 PM by Gina »
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Rhys 🕊

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2014, 10:35:36 PM »

That's the one

I wish I could explain as good as Ray did in that passage

Rhys  ;)
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2014, 10:35:58 PM »

I don't think paul was admonishing brothers and sisters, beloved, chosen of God, the saints, "my church," to judge the ungodly and the world but rather to JUDGE THEMSELVES. That is, each man to judge himself, BECAUSE one day we will judge the world. For now though, we voluntarily judge ourselves because Christ helps us judge ourselves that we should not be condemned with the world. Gehenna fire. Leave the world and all its issues to God. He is running the show and its all going acccording to His plan. For us, we mind ourselves, "oh man," and the beam in our own eye, until we overcome, endure to the end--are saved.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

If every member of the body of Christ judged him/herself, no matter of the church would ever go before the pagan world and there would be no need to judge your brother (the "you hypocrite!" part), and instead would be subject to the rule of God and His righteous judgments. His gehenna Fire.

There are verses that place an emphasis on not judging a brother in Christ besides what was stated in the sermon:

Romans 10-13 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

James 4:11 "Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge."
James 4:12 "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?"

So with this, and the sermon on the mount, I see an emphasis on judging ourselves, don't judge your brother or the world. God is dealing with your brothers and sisters in the fire of Gehenna, and He is doing with the world as He see's fit. The time will come to judge the world (not your brothers) but it is not now. For now, we are HID in Christ.

This is how I see it when considering "the sum of thy word." Feel free to agree or disagree.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 11:10:31 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Gina

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2014, 11:49:54 AM »

That's the one

I wish I could explain as good as Ray did in that passage

Rhys  ;)

Me too. I just wonder if we have this judging thing figured out.  I mean, Jesus called his own disciples "hypocrites," after he tells them to not judge. 
And then he goes: " do not give that which is holy to the dogs or throw your pearls before swine." 

Don't judge your brother.  Then he calls the pharisees snakes, fools, and hypocrites.

Obviously calling someone what they  are or saying what they are doing isn't judging them or condemning them, because if that were the case, then Romans Chapter 1 and some of the words in the gospels need to be deleted.

I believe is a difference between judging, condemning and confrontation.  Most people don't like confrontation.  I don't mind it so much.  But I don't want to cut off someone's ear, either, or descend into arguments that aren't profitable.

At one point, Paul was livid with the Corinthians because they were "proud," because they were allowing some man who was in bed with his father's wife to remain in their church.  He said, why are you proud?  Get the mofro out! [ okay he didn't say mofro, I think he called him an infidel]  Turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.  I mean, back in Romans 2, he just got finished telling them not to judge! 

Obviously we're talking about two different things here and not understanding what judgment and condemnation is.  I believe that Jesus and Paul are talking about judging and condemning under the physical laws of the land, the same laws that were later jumbled up by the pharisees.  But it's obviously hardly judging or condemning to call someone what they are or to be saying, hey - you're doing such and such, that's wrong!  That's not judging because if it were, then Paul and Jesus couldn't tell the Romans and Corinthians and the disciples what they were doing was wrong.  Nobody could tell anybody they're doing wrong!

And then, there was another time where he told Timothy  to admonish them once or twice and after that to reject -- those want to argue about the law [of Moses] and geanologies and this and that and the other.  He said, admonish them once or twice, and after that reject.  So clearly, rejection is not judging or condemning someone. Nor is handing someone over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, condemning or judging. 

So, I'm trying to understand what this "not judge or condemn" thing is really meaning.

I mean, for instance, Alex (not to start a war or whatever) told me that I was sowing discord with my post and wanting to get political.  Clearly that was not him judging me.  That was just how he saw what I was doing because of the things I was saying to Rick - who was actually the one who started it  :P  he got political.  Which is not to judge Rick at all, but that's what he was doing -- getting political and judging the woman under the laws of our land. 

I mean, I'm glad we don't live in Iran or some country where the penalty for stealing is literally cutting off someone's hand!  Both Alex and Rick agreed, that the woman deserved to be judged and punished according to our human laws. 

And neither one of them have come back and said, wow, I see that I was wrong!  But that's okay.  I understand why.  It was not easy to admit that the post was sowing discord.  It was not easy to take down the link because I truly thought as I said in my original post that "This is a beautiful story."  I mean, wow.  It was not easy to admit that I fell to the flesh, but what choice did I have?  It wasn't easy to put up the story later on, and then get ridiculed for that, too. 

Had I known that it was going to devolve into Tiny Tim posts, I promise you all I would have never posted this topic or put up a link.  I think I'll delete my story too. 

Anyway, Alex, I'm sorry, I see you posted something, but I have not read it.  And so I can't agree or disagree.  I'll just be over here getting this big log out of my eye if anyone wants me.
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Rinus

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2014, 09:13:33 AM »

Ola Rick

You say,"I agree, it’s a beautiful story, it reminds me of Christ sacrifice for the sins of the world." then you turnaround and say,"...the fact remains Grandma is a shoplifter." and then you say,"The officer involved is also guilty of dereliction of duty, his job is to enforce the law which he failed to do." and then you say,"Stealing is wrong, even if one steals to feed their young, its still wrong, ( thou shall not steal.)" and then you say,"But I do agree with you Gina, it is a beautiful story of forgiveness, compassion and love."
Sincerely, you are contradicting yourself.where is there "forgiveness,compassion and love?" Even on your 2nd reply to Gina, it contradicts your,"..it reminds me of Christ sacrifice.." statement. where are the similarities between Christs sacrifice and this story?We'll wait for your reply.

Ola Gina

Gina you said,"I think the cop took the most cost-effective, compassionate approach.  Maybe it even sent a message to other hotheaded, overworked cops to take  a friggin' chill pill!"
Now here is a question to you Gina. what do you think the cop should do when the shop owners call him next time about another "delinquency of a minor?"

Options:

1)You could arrest the thief, but WAIT!If you arrest the thief then one could ask,"Mr Cop, why didn't you arrest the grandma who stole last week for a similar crime?".  If you still arrest the thief then you would be guilty of being partial, showing favoritism, letting one go free and arresting the other.  And we know showing partiality is a SIN. 1 Timothy 5:21- NIV"...keep these instructions without partiality, and to do NOTHING(absolutely nothing) out of favoritism.  James 2:9 NIV" But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.  Proverbs 24:23,24 NIV"To show partiality in judging is not good:Whoever says to the guilty,'You are innocent'-peoples will curse him and nations denounce him.

2) If you do to the 2nd thief what you did to the grandma, then it may come to a point where the shop owners think,"Ok, this is getting out of hand now!  We call this cop to arrest a thief and he lets them go.This is the 2nd time now. I wonder what would happen should a serious crime happen,what's he gonna do?" Possibly, the shop owners will report you to your authorities and you'll loose your job.

3) Other.If you choose this option, please explain how you would help the cop get out of this hole that he just put himself in.

We'll wait for your reply

NB:You said,:"I'm warning you:  I could cut you down so far you would wish you never met me.  Ask anybody(WOOOOW!Really?ANYBODY?Does this include even those who don't know YOU) here, but I do not want to go that route, so let's drop it before an argument breaks out."-Sincerely Gina, i think you are the one who needs a "friggin' chill pilll" or "you could cut" yourself "down so far you would wish you never met" yourself.  It's not Rick you'll be destroying/cutting Gina, you'd be destroying/cutting yourself.  AND you can ask "anybody here" who keeps the Law.

Ola Alex

You said:"Gina, you seem to be sowing discord over a political matter.."
Comment: This is not a political matter.  Indianabob said:"This could be a helpful lesson..." and i agree with him.  Though, you are right when saying Gina is "sowing discord ", cause her opinions are misleading those that agree with her, and are misleading hundreds that are reading this thread and not participating.

You said:"Rick's post was spot on."

Comment:No!Rick's post was not "spot on." Its filled with contradictions. He(Rick) is partly right, though, in some of his sentence(s).
How is this a political matter?We'll wait for your reply.

NB:Your post on judging is off base.Perhaps one could start a new thread discussing judging.  You say," I see an emphasis on judging ourselves, don't judge your brother or the world." and yet you judge Gina.  If you/we take your own interpretation on judging, then that would make you a hypocrite.

Ola Loc

You said,"It reminds me of the parable in Matthew 18:21-35".  Sincerely, how on earth does this story remind you of the parable of the Unmerciful Servant?Where are the similarities?

You say,"I think Gina is the one who's spot on,"
Comment:NO!Gina is not spot on.Like Rick, both their spots are off.  Although, Rick is partly right.

You may answer the same questions i posed to Gina If you still think she is spot on.
Again, we'll wait for your reply.

Ola Kat

You said,"No need for us to get caught up in the right or wrong of that situation."
Again, Indianabob is right.  He said:"This could be a helpful lesson."  This is a great opportunity to learn, to Judge, and see the situation as God would see it.After all isn't that what we might do in the age to come?

Ola Rhys

You also follow Gina's point of view i see.  You may answer the same questions that i posed to her.
You say,"Using right judgement is what it's about than just what things appear to be."
Comment:You are right, this thread is an opportunity to use the right judgement, and you have failed to do so.
You say,"Need to see the bigger picture and that is what the cop saw."
Comment:No Rhys.  Haven't you read or heard? The blind do not see.  The cop saw no picture AT ALL!

NB: Did you see what Gina said in another reply?  She said,"The cop was very, very wise.  He saved them all a tremendous amount of time, heartache and money.  He settled it right there.  I just love that cop."

Again, we'll wait for your reply.

Indeed indianabob, this is a great opportunity to learn.

Personally, if i was the shop owner,i would've turned the other cheek.  After all that is what followers of Christ should do.  And the cop?Well lets just say i wouldn't be a cop and a follower of Christ.  The job would contradict or come in conflict with Christ eventually.
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Rhys 🕊

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2014, 03:02:04 PM »

Rinus I do not know what you are on about and have not interest in answering your silly questions. We are here to discuss and learn but you are turning it into a big debate that I have no interest in being a part of so will not take any further part of it.

Also remember the rules here

I'd also like to remind the members that the 'subtitle' of the Off-Topics board is "Just for fun posts and lighthearted banter".  Just something to think about, should topics start or change into something other than good-hearted and civil fellowship.


Questioning as to trying to get a better understanding of what the Scriptures state as taught by Ray Smith is what we are here for.  This forum is for those of “like mind” to fellowship.  If you are not of like mind that is fine just don’t post your beliefs, or debate here.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 03:17:45 PM by Rhys »
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rick

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2014, 10:17:53 PM »

Hello Rinus, and God bless you.

There is no wisdom in pursuing this subject, in fact , there is more wisdom in locking this thread than exploring it.

Gina feels as she does and I respect Gina as a sister of mine in the Lord , just a thought, perhaps everyone is right from their own perspective.  ;)
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wat

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2014, 11:22:14 PM »

I agree with Rhys and Rick. We've already had a few rounds of discussion and said our piece. It looks like everyone still feels the same as they did before. This thread's already gotten ugly and answering Rinus' questions wouldn't help anything.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Deleted
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2014, 03:02:53 AM »

This is why we need to stick to the forum rules and discuss what Ray taught and nothing more.

I'm going to lock this topic.
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