Resurrection of the dead in Matthew 27?

[lilitalienboi16]

King David's last words were to kill his enemies and make it bloody. King David died an unrepentant murderer and murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

I was under the impression That spiritually,in this quote,  David is "in the place of God" (The Father) and Solomon (in the place) of Jesus the Son,and David's instructions to Solomon are as the fathers to Jesus regarding his enemies  " For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet".

Stupid me,

Hi Ian,

Here are a few things ray said on this very subject.

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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

Why is all this Old Testament in here, hundreds and hundreds of pages... why is it in there?  Why was it preserved? Why was it so meticulously copied, letter for letter thousand and thousand... we have about five to ten thousand copies of the Greek scriptures. Some of them are recent, 1800-1900's. Some of them go back to the 4th and 5th century, really old.  Why... "For our admonition upon who the ends of the age have come..."

That's what the scripture says. Those people won't even be saved (in OT). It was not for their admonition, it's for OUR admonition.  They all died deceived. I mean people almost fall out of their chairs when I tell them that King David will not be in the Kingdom of God!  He was never converted, he was never born again, he was never begotten anew, he was never spiritually regenerated. His very dying words were, "Make it bloody, kill my enemies!" He told Solomon, "You're a wise man, you'll know how to do it, but make it bloody, I hate those guys..." Those were his dying words. Do people like that go into the Kingdom of God?  "But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES!" It was written for our admonition.

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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html

We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don't need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies... If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.

But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area. God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies. First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies. Well, where did they hear that of old? About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody. That was King David, not God. But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said. Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.

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Dave from Tenn also makes a good point and I would just add to all these things that taking a shadow and turning into the object that is casting a shadow is dangerous in my humble opinion. If david and solomon was symbolic for the Father and Christ (which personally I cannot say one way or another as I have not looked into this), they in know way become the Father and Christ. David will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He died an unrepentant murderer who hated His enemies. What did Christ say about those things? They shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Ray also pointed out that as Christ said, you have to be born again, this cannot happen without the spirit of Christ, the holy spirit, which the world had not yet received during the time of David nor would receive until after pentecost.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

In Christ,
Alex

[Gina]

You're welcome, Dave. 

All I know is, the elect are very, very strong emotionally, mentally and spiritually in order to be able to withstand the carnal-minded backlash they are going to receive.  They cannot revile when they are reviled, and they cannot threaten when they are threatened.   As weak as I am to the pulls of the flesh when someone just looks at me cross-eyed, when I think of the enormity of the elects' task, I have a whole new layer of respect for Jesus and all of God's elect.  The amount of patience and wisdom and emotional stability and strength it would take to raise just one child who hates your guts, to a place where they could function semi-well, exhausts me just thinking about it.  But to raise billions and billions to full perfection and understanding and perfect, self-less love without growing weary of doing good or fainting in all that "heat" blows my mind.

That's too high for me...  I need to go lay down now.

[Ian 155]

look Alex I hear you but, need to stress you cannot be lukewarm here, If you understand that David is a murderer (in the shadow/literally) thats OK, What is the spiritual meaning of Davids instructions?since I cannot write my understanding as I always seem to appear as teaching, perhaps you can answer...while you are thinking on that,

Is Jesus the spiritual "son of David"? we do know he is literally the 26th grandson of David


regarding resurrection what do I do with these scriptures ?


Job 19:25 Yet as for me, I know my Redeemer is living, And after this He shall arise on the soil;"
Job 19:26 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,

Act 9:8  Now Saul was raised from the earth, yet, his eyes being open, he observed nothing. Now, leading him by the hand, they led him into Damascus,

Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Co 15:13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused."

1Co 15:14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith."


Mat 16:27 Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."

And

This below scripture should cancel out of our mind the carnality and foolishness of an idea that to quote ...re the patriarchs "Jesus had not died yet"

Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."

Dave your statement that Jesus wont be the last is not true... let me quote you "Jesus was first. He won't be the last.  If He was not raised from the dead, neither will I be" this part is scripture

Im not being difficult now but ...  Jesus is the first, however he is ALSO .... the Last , there are more than 2 witnesses to back this up.


Finally is the bible a literal "book" to you or is it life giving spirit ? is each word inspired by God? if so, then to interpret/perceive these precious words literally, is death.

Lean not unto your own understanding, is a command

[lilitalienboi16]

look Alex I hear you but, need to stress you cannot be lukewarm here, If you understand that David is a murderer (in the shadow/literally) thats OK, What is the spiritual meaning of Davids instructions?since I cannot write my understanding as I always seem to appear as teaching, perhaps you can answer...while you are thinking on that,

Is Jesus the spiritual "son of David"? we do know he is literally the 26th grandson of David


regarding resurrection what do I do with these scriptures ?


Job 19:25 Yet as for me, I know my Redeemer is living, And after this He shall arise on the soil;"
Job 19:26 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,

Act 9:8  Now Saul was raised from the earth, yet, his eyes being open, he observed nothing. Now, leading him by the hand, they led him into Damascus,

Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Co 15:13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused."

1Co 15:14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith."


Mat 16:27 Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."

And

This below scripture should cancel out of our mind the carnality and foolishness of an idea that to quote ...re the patriarchs "Jesus had not died yet"

Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."

Dave your statement that Jesus wont be the last is not true... let me quote you "Jesus was first. He won't be the last.  If He was not raised from the dead, neither will I be" this part is scripture

Im not being difficult now but ...  Jesus is the first, however he is ALSO .... the Last , there are more than 2 witnesses to back this up.


Finally is the bible a literal "book" to you or is it life giving spirit ? is each word inspired by God? if so, then to interpret/perceive these precious words literally, is death.

Lean not unto your own understanding, is a command

Hi Ian,

I don't know if I can say David's "instructions" had "spiritual" meaning. By instructions, are you referring to what he said regarding his enemies? "Kill them and make it bloody?"

David was a carnal man and died an unrepentant murderer as we already showed.

This is what I know about spirit and flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity [Deep seated hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

David was never begotten a new but rather was of the earth as a natural man. He was not born of spirit so how could his words be spirit (Christ said His words are spirit but Christ was conceived by the spirit)? King David did not walk in the spirit being baptized into Christ's death and reckoning himself dead to the flesh but alive to the spirit as we who have been converted and conceived by the spirit do now. This is how I understand it. I cannot see right now how David's words of murder and hatred are "spiritual" as you (from what I'm perceiving) do.

You shared many verses below to which the meaning and purpose behind is not quite clear to me.

I know regarding Matthew 16:27 what Ray has shared on the matter and I agree with him on it. Here is what ray says regarding that verse:

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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html

As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).  And just when DID they see this?  Answer--next verse:

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?"  No. Read verse 9:

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was all a "VISION."  It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).

Hope this helps your understanding. The Scriptures do not contradict their own truths.

God be with you,

Ray
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Here is the sum of the word regarding the matter of Rev 13:8 (remember that no verse at all becomes its OWN interpretation):

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

This is how God could say that Jesus had been slain from the foundation of the world, because He calls those things that are not as though they were. It is the very same reason that we are NOW sons of God even though we have not yet been born into the kingdom of God, only given the earnest of His spirit as a downpayment of the future redemption to come when we will be born into the kingdom.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Now because God calls those things that are not as though they were.

Your cryptic nature of posting leads me to be cautious of what you say because it is not plain what your intentions are. I see a lot of people becoming confused by your post and it is perhaps why the moderators removed the previous post if indeed it was your post that david was referring to as being one that was "teaching." I unfortunately did not see this post before it was removed but I trust God that it was removed for the right reasons.

In Christ,
Alex

[Kat]

Ian, I will give you an answer as I see it.

As far as Job goes he knew he would be dead in the grave and "wait," till he was raised/changed to a new body.

Job 14:14  If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.

Acts 9:8  Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. (NASB)

Rev 1:18  and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."

With this verse in Revelation, yes of course Christ has the keys to death and the grave, He was able to raise people during His earthly ministry as He so desired and return them to a physical life and He will call all from their grave in the resurrection of the dead.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul was speaking to those that did not believe in the resurrection at all and if you will look a little further down in that same chapter you can see where Paul was going with that... the resurrection at His return!

1Co 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.


Matt 16:28  "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

In this verse in Matt 16 Christ is speaking to His disciples, and Judas would have been there as well, the phrase "shall not taste of death" could very well have been speaking of the second death and could have applied to Judas, he was the only disciple that died before Christ was crucified and raised and was not able to receive the Holy Spirit and repent.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This certainly applies to the fact that God's plan was established before the world was created.

1Peter 1:20  He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Heb 9:28  so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. (RSV)

Also the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.

Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Anyway that is the answer I see to all the verses you have listed.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Ray taught that, properly translated, Rev. 13:8 is talking about the names being written in the Book of the Life of the Life being written there from the foundation of the world--not that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8  And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

See Kat's post above for a second witness.

When was the Lamb slain?

Rom_5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of time came, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5  in order that he might redeem those under the law, in order that we might receive the adoption.

Jesus the Lamb came, lived, died and was raised from the dead.

Now if you see spiritual significance in the fact that the men travelling with Paul 'raised him from the ground' at his experience with the Lord on the road to Damascus as being Resurrection, then so be it.  Paul did not, as Alex posted scripture which shows he taught a future resurrection.  In the fullness of time?  In due time?

That isn't to say that he didn't teach about 'death' and 'Resurrection' in this life, in the now.  He was the one who said "I die daily" and "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live..." and many other passages that put a future promise into 'faith' for today, after all.

A lot of people in my life have hit with me that bible saying "Lean not to your own understanding".  INVARIABLY, what they MEANT is, either "don't think" or "LEAN UNTO MINE."  Pretty slick, huh?  And just what do they thing THEY are doing? 

Well, no.  Not gonna do it.   

[Ian 155]

Defending a lie can be harder than telling the truth

your quotes are in black

"David was never begotten a new but rather was of the earth as a natural man. He was not born of spirit so how could his words be spirit (Christ said His words are spirit but Christ was conceived by the spirit)"

Does not all come out of God?While you and I make Judgement on that which comes from God are you and I, yet carnal? You and I Mock God By insinuating our understanding is correct, I will ask you again, Does David Represent God In This scripture you quote as Proof David was yet carnal ?

Were not Davids words inspired by God ? how can you dare say davids words are not spirit ?

The Tree of Knowledge has a 2 fold message most get the 2nd message with ease (evil) the first message (good) is attainable.... if you ask.

Does Good represent Spirit (life) ? does Evil represent Carnal ? (DEATH)

As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).  And just when DID they see this?  Answer--next verse:

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?"  No. Read verse 9:

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was all a "VISION."  It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).

Yes we all know this was a vision but how do you get to where ch 17 v1 , is the answer/explanation to ch 16 v27,28 ?

Do you know what the "vision" meant and why God would have it in his word ?Why would they automatically perceive the men in the vision to be these 2 specific prophets ?when they had never laid eyes on them ?

and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH]

Really?

do you have a chapter and verse on this interpretation ?

Your cryptic nature of posting leads me to be cautious of what you say because it is not plain what your intentions are.

well here is another "cryptic" message - be cautious.

Being reborn/resurrected, is actually climbing back up into a literal womb.

You and your colleagues are looking for a literal resurrection of the literal dead - good luck...

perhaps Jesus knew something when he said "Let the dead bury the dead"

[Ian 155]

Ian, I will give you an answer as I see it.

As far as Job goes he knew he would be dead in the grave and "wait," till he was raised/changed to a new body.

Job 14:14  If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.

Acts 9:8  Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. (NASB)

Rev 1:18  and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."

With this verse in Revelation, yes of course Christ has the keys to death and the grave, He was able to raise people during His earthly ministry as He so desired and return them to a physical life and He will call all from their grave in the resurrection of the dead.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul was speaking to those that did not believe in the resurrection at all and if you will look a little further down in that same chapter you can see where Paul was going with that... the resurrection at His return!

1Co 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.


Matt 16:28  "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

In this verse in Matt 16 Christ is speaking to His disciples, and Judas would have been there as well, the phrase "shall not taste of death" could very well have been speaking of the second death and could have applied to Judas, he was the only disciple that died before Christ was crucified and raised and was not able to receive the Holy Spirit and repent.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This certainly applies to the fact that God's plan was established before the world was created.

1Peter 1:20  He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Heb 9:28  so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. (RSV)

Also the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.

Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Anyway that is the answer I see to all the verses you have listed.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Well thanks for the honesty in saying "thats the way you understand it" I could write a book Kat but then it would be teaching ....

[Ian 155]

Ray taught that, properly translated, Rev. 13:8 is talking about the names being written in the Book of the Life of the Life being written there from the foundation of the world--not that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8  And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

See Kat's post above for a second witness.

When was the Lamb slain?

Rom_5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of time came, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5  in order that he might redeem those under the law, in order that we might receive the adoption.

Jesus the Lamb came, lived, died and was raised from the dead.

Now if you see spiritual significance in the fact that the men travelling with Paul 'raised him from the ground' at his experience with the Lord on the road to Damascus as being Resurrection, then so be it.  Paul did not, as Alex posted scripture which shows he taught a future resurrection.  In the fullness of time?  In due time?

That isn't to say that he didn't teach about 'death' and 'Resurrection' in this life, in the now.  He was the one who said "I die daily" and "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live..." and many other passages that put a future promise into 'faith' for today, after all.

A lot of people in my life have hit with me that bible saying "Lean not to your own understanding".  INVARIABLY, what they MEANT is, either "don't think" or "LEAN UNTO MINE."  Pretty slick, huh?  And just what do they thing THEY are doing? 

Well, no.  Not gonna do it.   

And here is stupid me thinking everything was in place from THE FOUNDATION of the earth - even the "tweaks" in our character flaws.


Perhaps we should say "In the Beginning the WORD WAS NOT" and that uncle Dave has a better angle ? By "stringing" multiple interpretations together.

[Gina]

And here is stupid me thinking everything was in place from THE FOUNDATION of the earth - even the "tweaks" in our character flaws.


Perhaps we should say "In the Beginning the WORD WAS NOT" and that uncle Dave has a better angle ? By "stringing" multiple interpretations together.

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

Isaiah 55:11  so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Our character flaws manifest when God decides they're made manifest.

Abraham was made a father of many, when he had as yet not one child.

Romans 4:17  As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

It's very simple, Ian.  But it takes the Spirit of God operating in us to understand these things.  All in due time of course.

God said,

Lean not on your son's stash,
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will direct your path.

[Kat]

Ian, if you are so in such opposition to what Ray taught, why are you here? You are debating this topic that we are clearly showing what Ray taught from the Scripture?

[lilitalienboi16]

Defending a lie can be harder than telling the truth

your quotes are in black

"David was never begotten a new but rather was of the earth as a natural man. He was not born of spirit so how could his words be spirit (Christ said His words are spirit but Christ was conceived by the spirit)"

Does not all come out of God?While you and I make Judgement on that which comes from God are you and I, yet carnal? You and I Mock God By insinuating our understanding is correct, I will ask you again, Does David Represent God In This scripture you quote as Proof David was yet carnal ?

Were not Davids words inspired by God ? how can you dare say davids words are not spirit ?

The Tree of Knowledge has a 2 fold message most get the 2nd message with ease (evil) the first message (good) is attainable.... if you ask.

Does Good represent Spirit (life) ? does Evil represent Carnal ? (DEATH)

As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).  And just when DID they see this?  Answer--next verse:

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?"  No. Read verse 9:

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was all a "VISION."  It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).

Yes we all know this was a vision but how do you get to where ch 17 v1 , is the answer/explanation to ch 16 v27,28 ?

Do you know what the "vision" meant and why God would have it in his word ?Why would they automatically perceive the men in the vision to be these 2 specific prophets ?when they had never laid eyes on them ?

and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH]

Really?

do you have a chapter and verse on this interpretation ?

Your cryptic nature of posting leads me to be cautious of what you say because it is not plain what your intentions are.

well here is another "cryptic" message - be cautious.

Being reborn/resurrected, is actually climbing back up into a literal womb.

You and your colleagues are looking for a literal resurrection of the literal dead - good luck...

perhaps Jesus knew something when he said "Let the dead bury the dead"

Ian,

I am afraid we are beyond reasoning now. You twist the scriptures to your own destruction. God is not the author of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

You have been given sound replies to your previous posts and have dismissed them all, even mocking some in the process.

We have two witnesses against you and Gina shared the second. Let me re-iterate them.

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Regardless of the correct translation of Rev 13:8 which david rightly brought to our attention, even if we abandon that, these two witnesses hold. God declares things to be even though they might not have yet come to pass for us. He declares those things which are not as though they were. These are the words of God.

You need two or three witnesses to establish a truth so all your talk about the tree of life and every other seed of confusion you wish to sow means nothing without those witnesses:

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Because...

2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.
Psalm 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth...

The Word of God is inspired by God. Every piece of scripture is profitable and cannot be broken. That doesn't mean that "Kill my enemies and make it bloody, I hate those guys" roughly  summed, is spiritual in meaning. David was a carnal man, his instructions were not for the spiritual. Christ even said:

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5: 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Jesus directly contradicts King David and that is because Jesus' words are spirit but King David who is born of the flesh is flesh. His (King David's) words are not spirit. This isn't me contradicting david, its Christ. You have contention with Christ and not myself Ian when you ask me how can I dare say David's words are not spirit?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

You need to discern what is evil and what is good.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

There are many things that happened in the scripture, such as the words of job's friends (whose words are recorded in the scriptures by inspiration of God), and yet whose words are not spiritual in that they were not truthful. God rebuked job's friends in anger for not being truthful.

Job 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has...

This is a perfect example of being inspired by God and yet the words (of the friends) that were recorded were not spiritual. The words written are only inspired by God in that it was recorded for our admonishment to learn from and in this way has spiritual applications to our lives. It is not because the very words of the friends themselves were spiritual (truth) as you are attempting to do with David's words.

There is so much in your post Ian, so many things we could try and discuss, but mostly I see you are confused and wrestle with the scriptures. There is not much I or anyone else can do. I am reminded of a Mike Vincent who interpreted the scriptures in much the same way as you to the point of believing that we, those in Christ, because we must keep the words of the book, must also undergo the wrath of God. What a damnable doctrine. What a dangerous road to be on.

I'm not sure I can add more other than to recognize that there is too much here to try and discuss all at once so I chose what I could answer.

In Christ,
Alex

P.S. The answer to Matthew 16:27-28 can lie in Chapter 17 because the scriptures were not written with "Chapters" and these breaks we now have in the bible. Those are editorial additions many centuries later. In other words, the scriptures did not have these breaks and separations but rather flowed one verse after another uninterrupted.