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[Gina]

Gina and Kat,

Excellent responses...thank you for your thoughts--and I agree with them completely!

But I didn't mean to suggest that Christ was doubting his Father... I was more thinking he was maybe doubting himself in that hour.  His flesh, that is.  In all other instances where we read of Christ's TRUST in his Father (e.g., all miracles he'd performed), we know he had said "Father, I know you always hear me, but I say these words for the benefit of those here, that they may know that I am He..." (paraphrasing). He never showed any doubt in his Father's ability.

But when it came down to his final act...His very death...  He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure.  And it was horrible.  And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake.  Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture:  they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams).  I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect!  They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.

So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak".  But WHO was he talking about?  Himself or the disciples?  Whose flesh was most weak at that moment?  Theirs or his?  Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.

Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed).  I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin.  I'm not convinced either way. 

I understand how you feel, Michael.  And that is something that God will pull you through and settle you on in His own good time.  How in the world did Christ do that and not doubt?  Well he didn't doubt as the songwriter suggests.   He was tempted in all points as we were -- all points, yet without sinning.

What you see there happening in the garden is not Jesus doubting at all but He was struggling to not give in to his desire to be delivered from what He knew He had to go through -- the salvation of the world was depending on His being able to go through it, and so of course he was struggling, but doubting?  No.  He didn't doubt He could go through it.  When it got to the final hour, He didn't want to go through it.  And who could blame Him?  He was struggling against the temptation to back out of what He had to go through.  That's not doubt.

Jesus told his disciples to watch and pray so that they wouldn't fall into temptation.

Hebrews 12

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

But even though doubt is sin, Jesus came to save us from all that too.  He didn't rebuke Thomas when Thomas doubted, he said, come on over and put your hands in my side.  He understands these things.  He didn't rebuke the man who said, Yes, Lord, I believe but help my unbelief (doubt).  See? 

That is a hard thing to meditate on, that Christ actually was afraid -- I mean, he goes around telling his disciples "fear not!"  and there He is struggling to not give into fear.  Well, so what?  Who can blame him for that?  Maybe if some never had a leather belt rip their back apart so bad that they couldn't hardly walk or lay down or sit down for a week and their clothes stuck to the bloodied wounds, maybe they couldn't be sympathetic to or understand his desire to let that cup pass.  And His Father wouldn't let Him grow faint or weary.  And the same faith that got Jesus through what he endured is the same faith that's going to get us all through our trials and suffering.

I mean, listen, Sarah, Abraham's wife, she doubted that God would give them a child.  But her doubt was no match for the promise of God.  The promise wasn't given to her.  God didn't make a deal with Sarah.  He made a deal with Abraham, who believed God.  God's faithful even when we are not.  And I think that's what we're witnessing there in the garden.  Not doubt, but God's faithfulness to us sinners.  I don't know how else to say it.

I hope that helps a little.  Sorry for the longwinded reply.  And welcome to the forum! 

[Kat]

He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure.  And it was horrible.  And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake.  Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture:  they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams).  I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect!  They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.

So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak".  But WHO was he talking about?  Himself or the disciples?  Whose flesh was most weak at that moment?  Theirs or his?  Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.

Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed).  I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin.  I'm not convinced either way. 

Hi lurquer, yes the disciples were grieved by what Christ had been telling them, but they really had no idea what was about to happen, not really. They were confused and they saw the anxiety and distress He was in and it effected them, so they were upset too. Now you ask;

"So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak".  But WHO was he talking about?  Himself or the disciples?  Whose flesh was most weak at that moment?  Theirs or his?"

Of course He was speaking of the disciples, He knew what was about to happen, but they just could not comprehend what was happening that very night or they would never have been able to sleep.

Yes He was greatly distressed about what was about to happen... that should prove that He was very much human (not just God that looked like a man) and would feel and suffer every bit of the pain that was coming. BUT He was NOT questioning/doubting whether He could/would go through it, He was maybe seeking His Father to see if this was the only way, He did end His pray with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will," which was His

When He said in verse 41 "Watch and pray, lest YOU enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak," He was speaking of the disciples weak flesh, their carnality, certainly not Himself.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
v. 9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Our Savior struggle was not if He would be able to complete His mission, but He was seeking His Father for help in the terrible agony He was feeling, and no doubt He received that help.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lurquer]

Hi Gina,

Thanks for helping me understand that better.  You and Kat are very good at clarifying things.  I certainly find no fault in what either of you said.  I especially appreciated what you said about fear, rather than doubt.. I much better comprehend that. 

I think we're all in agreement about what happened in the garden.  I still want to say though, that I don't think we're using the word doubt the same way.. Doubt can mean "unbelief" (as in unbelief in the promises of God).. I don't think Christ ever experienced that as that would be sin.  But it can also mean "uncertainty" or lack of understanding.  Perhaps an incomplete knowledge of something (as in, "I doubt this bridge can hold us").  Now if God SAID it would hold, and I doubted, he'd probably let me sink like Peter when he walked out to Jesus on the water--just to make the point 

But, maybe I still wonder if he had any "uncertainty" while he was in the flesh.. How much did he really "know"?  I mean if he was praying to the Father to maybe "see if this was the only way", like Kat said (and I think she's right about that), doesn't it mean he was "unsure"?  Did he ever have that sort of doubt?

And now that we've had this discussion, I probably won't appreciate Sympathy for the Devil as much any more.   

[Gina]

Yeah, I don't know what to say.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.  I would like to be able to answer your question, but maybe this is one of those things that needs to be worked out over time because it is a heavy, heavy topic.  (I can't hardly bear the thought of what he went through, it's so sad!  And saying it's sad just doesn't even come close to doing it justice.)

But maybe this will help -- maybe it won't.  But I thought of how Jesus said he'd be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.  So, as far as I can tell from what I know and read, He had no doubt what he was in for, and that he was coming out of the heart of the earth, because after all, Jonah came up out of that whale.  He knew that Jonah came up out of that whale because after all, He was the one who caused that entire thing with Jonah to come about from the start to finish. 

Remember when He said "I am the resurrection and the life"?  So that is a clear indication that He knew He wasn't going to be left in the tomb or that  God would fail to raise him up from the dead.   I can't think off the top of my head of more scriptures where Jesus spoke of events that would take place after His resurrection at the moment, forgive me.   

I don't believe that doubt is as great a sin as some other sins, of course not.  We all doubt.  But Jesus obviously had been around the Romans quite a bit during his earthly ministry and knew all about crucifixions, so I'm sure he had no doubt in His mind or heart about just what he was about to suffer.  I don't think He was the first to be crucified by the Romans, and his crucifixion was prophesied long before it ever occurred -- and who inspired the psalmist to prophecy Jesus' crucifixion?  Jesus - the Logos, the Word.   Sorry, I just don't understand your dilemma about him having doubts. 

Now, you and I would be having major doubts!  But we're not talking about us.  We're talking about Christ.  He was terrified to the core.  I'll say it again, I can't hardly bring myself to think about what ... see just thinking about what they did to Him (and even though I know it was all planned by God himself) makes me want to flip and go crazy on those people and that's not right -- this is a very hard topic to be thinking about.  I really don't like to think about it.  It tears my insides apart.

Here's an email that Ray did.  It may or may not answer your questions, but I'm just putting it out there so that you can see that Jesus was in sheer terror.   

God bless you, Michael.  I am praying that God helps you in your search for the truth. 

Gina

Email response from Ray:


I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah."  Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone.   

"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!

And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this: 

"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).

The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11616.msg100492.html#msg100492

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Gina,

Thanks for helping me understand that better.  You and Kat are very good at clarifying things.  I certainly find no fault in what either of you said.  I especially appreciated what you said about fear, rather than doubt.. I much better comprehend that. 

I think we're all in agreement about what happened in the garden.  I still want to say though, that I don't think we're using the word doubt the same way.. Doubt can mean "unbelief" (as in unbelief in the promises of God).. I don't think Christ ever experienced that as that would be sin.  But it can also mean "uncertainty" or lack of understanding.  Perhaps an incomplete knowledge of something (as in, "I doubt this bridge can hold us").  Now if God SAID it would hold, and I doubted, he'd probably let me sink like Peter when he walked out to Jesus on the water--just to make the point 

But, maybe I still wonder if he had any "uncertainty" while he was in the flesh.. How much did he really "know"?  I mean if he was praying to the Father to maybe "see if this was the only way", like Kat said (and I think she's right about that), doesn't it mean he was "unsure"?  Did he ever have that sort of doubt?

And now that we've had this discussion, I probably won't appreciate Sympathy for the Devil as much any more.   

Hi Lurquer,

Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts.

Strong's
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Jesus Christ had the spirit of God without measure.

John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."

Christ spoke many things for the benefit of those around him and who would come after. For the benefit of those who would believe on Him. As Kat said earlier, the most likely reason for why Christ said what He did at the cross was not due to His lack of faith, or doubt, or uncertainty in the flesh, but for OUR ADMONISHMENT. To bear witness to the Jews that He was who He was and for us who would come afterwards.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

John 11:42 And I knew that thou [The Father] hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

In Christ,
Alex

[Gina]

One more thought.  I don't see where Jesus said "If there's some other way."  He said:

Luke
 42 ...  "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him

Matthew 26

39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

I could be totally wrong but it sounds to me like what Jesus was praying for to let the cup of fear and physical pain pass from him.  Unfortunately, it couldn't pass because He had to suffer the penalty of our sins. 

He had to FEEL everything, the fear and the agonizing and all the jeering and the cruelty that we had coming to us.  He had to feel it all.  You think maybe he was asking that he simply be kept safe from feeling it in his mind and his body?   I mean, it's so pitiful to think about.  I'd be praying the same thing - we all would. 

And of course it was possible for God to let that pass from him so that he could go through it without actually experiencing the pain of it.  Nothing's too hard for God, He even said so. 

But that would have diminished the effects of it in the eyes of mankind.  We would have all been like, Wow, that must have been really hard for him to do  -- zzzzzzz.   

But if he did that, then he couldn't really say that He actually suffered the penalty for our sins, so we have a Truthful Savior to the core.  He could have gone through all that and pretended like it hurt like hell, but then he'd be a liar, and Jesus was no liar.  (I mean, that's how truthful he was -- like Alex said -- he said many things for the benefit of those he is saving.)  Love is long-suffering. 

And the whole thing about Him suffering the penalty for our sin is the actual suffering and mental and emotional anguish and wishing he didn't have to experience the pain of it - just like we would be wishing.  He had to feel everything we would be feeling -- including the desire to let the suffering not effect him physically or psychologically, or emotionally.  Does that make sense?  Or did I just confuse you more?  I hope not.

[Kat]

I will say this statement from Christ, "let this cup pass from Me" is a bit perplexing, though we really don't know exactly what He meant by it, we know He always knew He was to suffer and be our sacrifice.

Luke 9:22  saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day." 

But I guess knowing about something that is to come and then actually having to go through with it... well He certainly knew what He was about to have to endure. Crucifixion was well established by that time...

The first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon. (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)

Jesus most likely had seen people crucified as this was done as a public show, but even if He had not actually witnessed a crucifixion, well He was our God from heaven and would have certainly known everything about this barbaric means of death.

Crucifixion was often performed to terrorize and dissuade its witnesses from perpetrating particularly heinous crimes. Victims were left on display after death as warnings to others who might attempt dissent. Crucifixion was usually intended to provide a death that was particularly slow, painful (hence the term excruciating, literally "out of crucifying"), gruesome, humiliating, and public (Wikipedia, Crucifixion)

When we think of who Jesus was, leading a totally righteous life and certainly taking perfect care of His body as well and there is no account of anybody ever laying hands on Him or abusing Him before His arrest. He just would not have been used to being taken hold of, much less horribly abused.

He was God... though He came as a servant, He was very much above/pure/holy/superior to all these people and yet He was now about to surrender into the hands of some of the most vile and wicked people that He knew were going to torture Him mercilessly.

I really think He was having a kind of panic attack, had become unnerved, which should absolutely show He was a fully physically man (there are some that believe He could not be God and fully man too). But He turned to the only source He could, His Father, who sent Him an angel to give Him the strength needed. He never relented, even when He was struggling in the garden, that He would do the Father's will, as we see in His prayer and most importantly is He DID it!

When you think about it, Jesus is was and always will be God. Before His life in the flesh He had already been living for billions of years, at least, what He willingly volunteered to do is so mindbogglingly incredible...

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
v. 10  For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lurquer]

Hi Lurquer,

Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts...

In Christ,
Alex

I hear you, Alex.  He was meant to die, and he knew it all along...But what then was Christ agonizing about in the Garden?

Aye, there's the rub.

I'm not so sure Jesus was "fearful" of the pain/suffering of the death he was to "glorify God with" (qua John 21:19).  Many mere humans (before and since) have went to their death fearlessly.  And they knew precisely what sort of death they were in for because they'd dealt it themselves.  But the Lord is above all of them.  Were they all "stronger' than him?

Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...

[Gina]

Okay.  I'm sure that God will reveal it to us in His own time.
Luke 12:2

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Lurquer,

Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts...

In Christ,
Alex

I hear you, Alex.  He was meant to die, and he knew it all along...But what then was Christ agonizing about in the Garden?

Aye, there's the rub.

I'm not so sure Jesus was "fearful" of the pain/suffering of the death he was to "glorify God with" (qua John 21:19).  Many mere humans (before and since) have went to their death fearlessly.  And they knew precisely what sort of death they were in for because they'd dealt it themselves.  But the Lord is above all of them.  Were they all "stronger' than him?

Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...

Hi Lurquer,

Have you considered the possibility He was agonizing over the sheer agony He was about to experience? If you knew when you were going to die and how you were going to die, and the way was to be one of the most drawn out excruciating tortures known to man at the time, don't you think you too would be sweating blood?

The discovery channel once did a show on whether it was possible for the account in the garden to be true as it is recounted, in that did Jesus actually sweat blood? They had several physicians talking about crucifixion and the human body. They explained that under extreme duress, it was possible for an individual to sweat blood, and that the account of the garden may not be something that was exaggerated but actually could have happened as is recounted.

I'm not sure what to make of this "Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man..." but when I see things like this, all kinds of red flags go up.

In Christ,
Alex

[Gina]

That Jesus actually sweat blood was definitely not an exaggeration -- there's such as thing as straining so hard that the capillaries in your face burst.   There's a medical term for it -- hematosis or something.  That's how hard he was straining to resist the temptation to call a legion angels to come save Him and all his disciples!  I would have been like, Um, Now Father!  Send them right now!

I don't mean to diminish anyone's death.  But I'm sure some veterans would be very relieved to have the option of phoning the commander in chief and asking for 12,000 soldiers to come rescue them in a flash.  Or have access to a heavy dose of morphine so that they wouldn't feel any pain. 

Mr. President?  Yeah, It's Michael.  Listen, they're  about to rip my flesh from my bones.  Could you save me?   There is not the man who lived would have insisted on going through that if he had the option of not going through it.  And that was only part of what Jesus went through. 

Jesus had so much power in him that when the soldiers came to arrest him, all he said was:   I AM.   And they all fell backwards on their behinds.  That's how much power he had.  You think maybe he was tempted to use that power?   How much strength and power above and beyond that do you think Jesus had to have in order to resist the urge to use it?

Jesus could have been saved from it.  The Physician could have just as easily healed himself.   It would have been so easy.  Can't you just hear Satan tempting him.  "Oh come on, you really don't want to do this....  Do you?  For these people?  Are you serious?"

But He knew Satan was lying to him.  And so he did something no man has ever done in the history of mankind and never will again.  He fulfilled scripture and prophecy to the T.  I'd say that entrusting His Father with His entire life and death in the face of all that agony and torment and embarrassment and shame glorified His Father.  It's something no one besides Jesus ever did in the history of mankind.  And never will again.

 I would have been straining so hard, I would have sweat blood too, if I had the option of calling all that off. 

I would have said forget that!  I'm going home!    I would have looked at them all and said, There is no way you'll EVER be any good!   You can go to hell!  Ya know?  But with all that power, he goes:  "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

I'd say that would glorify His Father.  But that's me.

[Kat]

Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...

Hi lurquer,

I'm wondering if you are not thinking along the lines of what the Christian world believes... they think that Christ was to actually become 'sin' for us and that He was struggling with the thought of God turning away from Him.

2Co 5:21  For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

This is a wrong translation, Christ became a "sin offering," big difference. Ray spoke on this heresy to a great degree, here are the Bible studies.

Bible study audio Oct/Nov 2006
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3

transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html

So people believe that He literally became sin and that the Father could not look upon Him as such (Habakkuk 1:13) and so turned His back on Jesus when He needed Him the most. And to top it off the church believe that the Father then poured His wrath on Christ. This is all a gross mis-translation of what happened.

So I'm just trying to figure out your hesitance to believe. That when Christ as a human man was greatly troubled by what He was about to go through. He was God and what He was about to endure was the absolute depths of human degradation possible. Sure other people have went to their death fearlessly... but they were not the God of the universe, who had been in existence for billions of years and was now about to suffer and die... I think for good reason that this was the greatest act of sacrifice possible.

Maybe I've gotten it all wrong about what you may be thinking, but this could help somebody else I suppose, so I thought it was worth mentioning.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

If the mods consider what I am about to say teaching or preaching, please remove it by all means.  I will not object.

Well, what's ridiculous about the whole notion that God was dishing out His wrath on Jesus (the spotless and faultless and blameless Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world) is this:

The Father isn't wrathful with the express image of Himself.

"I  always do what pleases My Father."  "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

How could the Father be wrathful towards the express image of Himself, in Whom He was well pleased?  It would be akin to the Father showing wrath towards Himself.  The Father isn't wrathful towards Himself.

Mark 3:24  If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Jesus was never at odds with His Father, and His Father wasn't at odds with the express image of Himself.
 

[Dennis Vogel]

If the mods consider what I am about to say teaching or preaching, please remove it by all means.  I will not object.

Well, what's ridiculous about the whole notion that God was dishing out His wrath on Jesus (the spotless and faultless and blameless Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world) is this:

The Father isn't wrathful with the express image of Himself.

"I  always do what pleases My Father."  "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

How could the Father be wrathful towards the express image of Himself, in Whom He was well pleased?  It would be akin to the Father showing wrath towards Himself.  The Father isn't wrathful towards Himself.

Mark 3:24  If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Jesus was never at odds with His Father, and His Father wasn't at odds with the express image of Himself.

You did notice Kat said: "the church believe that the Father then poured His wrath on Christ." ?

But I've never heard that "the church" teaches that. Just a few screwballs.

[Gina]

No, I didn't really read the whole thing she said.  But I honestly cannot recall any church or sermon I ever heard where it was taught that the Father poured out his wrath on His perfect son.  It'll screw you up so bad you won't know which end is up. 

It'd be like hiring a messenger to deliver a package to someone under the most extreme conditions without a hitch, and without so much as hurting a flea - per your strict orders.  And they do it exactly as planned.  And as a thank you to the messenger, you fly into a rage and mock him, spit on him, beat him to a bloody pulp, nail him to a cross and make him gasp for air for 12 hours, before shoving a spear through his heart and assigning him a grave with the wicked.  And what's surprising is, some people continue to AGREE with that.  (Even the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.)

We are very, very, very fortunate to have had Ray to straighten out that diabolical mess and shield us from that heresy. 

[Kat]

Well I just consider if the main commentaries teach it, then it's a teaching of the 'church.'

Albert Barnes' commentary--
these sufferings were sent upon him as the wrath of God manifested against sin that God inflicted them directly upon him by his own hand, to show his abhorrence of the sins of people for which he was about to die.

Matthew Henry's commentary--
there it pleased the Lord to bruise him, and crush him, that fresh oil might flow to all believers from him, that we might partake of the root and fatness of that good Olive. There he trod the wine-press of his Father's wrath, and trod it alone.

John Gill's commentary--
and fell on his face, and prayed; partly to show his great reverence of God, the sword of whose justice was awaked against him, the terrors of whose law were set in array before him, and whose wrath was pouring down upon him; and partly to signify how much his soul was depressed, how low he was brought, and in what distress and anguish of spirit he was, that he was not able to lift up his head, and look up.

I really don't know what they teach inside the church these days, but the internet has plenty of sites that say it was God's wrath on Jesus, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, but here is one that show what they teach.

In the New Testament, the act of propitiation always refers to the work of God and not the sacrifices or gifts offered by man. The reason for this is that man is totally incapable of satisfying God’s justice except by spending eternity in hell. There is no service, sacrifice or gift that man can offer that will appease the holy wrath of God or satisfy His perfect justice. The only satisfaction, or propitiation, that could be acceptable to God and that could reconcile man to Him, had to be made by God. For this reason God the Son, Jesus Christ, came into the world in human flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin and make atonement or “propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17).


Again I do not believe this teaching, I just got it off the internet and I am not trying to stir up things by bringing it up. The church also believe in the trinity and that God the Father is a separate 'person' from the Son, so they would not think He was pouring His wrath out on Himself...

But anyway my point was to Lurquer, to see if this was maybe what he had heard/read and it was in some way what was causing him trouble with this passage. because it's really hard to totally get all the false teaching out of our minds. Sorry for the confusion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

I can totally see why you would say that church teaches it.  You make a very good point.  The church certainly teaches plenty of baloney. 

I've also read on the internet where Jesus is the "sin-offering."  And I recently heard one mainstream pastor in Birmingham, Alabama talk about the renewing ... I N G ... of our minds, to bring out the fact that we aren't born with the mind of Christ but that it is a process.  He was totally in to tithing, but ya know -- slowly but surely mainstreamers will come around.

Certainly, whatever is out of God (man), although subject to vanity initially, has to eventually grow to become whole and of sound mind because ... it comes from God.  Hello?   It has to eventually, for the simple fact that we originate from God and God doesn't make mistakes.  It's a no-brainer. 

So, when Jesus was doing all that he did for humanity, he had faith that it wouldn't fail to produce good results because he knew where He came from and where He was going, even though the whole of mankind at that point didn't know.   He knew exactly where he came from and how everything would turn out eventually.  And that's what got him through all that agony and terror -- the prize set before him.

It's just fascinating to note that the first Adam was just a man who couldn't stand his own station in life and wanted to be immortal and God.  And he was driven out of the garden.

And Jesus, the last Adam, actually was God but volunteered to lower Himself to the point where he was considered by man to be lower than a common criminal.  And ends up helping the first Adam to eventually become like He truly is.  Which is what the first Adam wanted all along but not in the right way. 

Anyway, the dichotomy there just totally blows me away.  Our God is so fascinating.

[lurquer]

Hi lurquer,

I'm wondering if you are not thinking along the lines of what the Christian world believes... they think that Christ was to actually become 'sin' for us and that He was struggling with the thought of God turning away from Him.

2Co 5:21  For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

This is a wrong translation, Christ became a "sin offering," big difference. Ray spoke on this heresy to a great degree, here are the Bible studies.

Bible study audio Oct/Nov 2006
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3

transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html

So people believe that He literally became sin and that the Father could not look upon Him as such (Habakkuk 1:13) and so turned His back on Jesus when He needed Him the most. And to top it off the church believe that the Father then poured His wrath on Christ. This is all a gross mis-translation of what happened.

So I'm just trying to figure out your hesitance to believe. That when Christ as a human man was greatly troubled by what He was about to go through. He was God and what He was about to endure was the absolute depths of human degradation possible. Sure other people have went to their death fearlessly... but they were not the God of the universe, who had been in existence for billions of years and was now about to suffer and die... I think for good reason that this was the greatest act of sacrifice possible.

Maybe I've gotten it all wrong about what you may be thinking, but this could help somebody else I suppose, so I thought it was worth mentioning.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kat, no worries.  I've listened to/read all of Ray's studies. Can't say I disagree with any of them on content... I utterly reject the churchianity notion that Christ was, or became sin. It is indeed a despicable heresy.

But I don't know what you mean by my "hesitance to believe" (?)  Certainly I believe that Jesus was a man and was in extreme agony that night.  The question though, is why?  Fear of death itself? The physical suffering?  I don't think so. Maybe--I don't know.  But it just doesn't sit right with me.  That explanation just seems like a simple, human understanding  (of course any of us would have opted out of that given the chance!)  However, there are a plethora of historical examples of other christian martyrs who chose not to opt out of the most horrendous deaths rather than deny Christ. Indeed, there are accounts of many going to their deaths singing praises and hymns, appearing to be in no pain at all, even though they were being burned alive... Even the thief hanging next to him was still able to yuk it up and mock Jesus while in the same agonizing predicament...

In any case, none of us knows, nor likely ever will in this age. It is just one of those things that is yet unrevealed.  We're only speculating.  Like Gina said, these are deep things. Things I wonder about...

[John from Kentucky]

This matter is not that hard to understand.

There is a Scripture that tells us all things are possible with God.

Jesus had a sound mind.  No one with a sound mind would want to go through His suffering.

Therefore He asked the One Who could make a difference if this cup could pass.  God's answer was No.  This way was the way God wanted it done.  God had a good reason to do it the way He did, but that is another topic.

When the time came, Jesus stood tall.  He did not whine or complain or bemoan His fate.

When He said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"; Jesus was quoting the 22nd Psalm, the first part of which discusses the sufferings of the Messiah, and the 2nd part discusses His ultimate triumph.  This leads into the 23rd Psalm which states, "The LORD is my shepherd..."  These were Jesus' thoughts right before the soldier stabbed Him to death.

I am as proud as punch over the way Jesus handled Himself, when He was faced with an ultimate physical trial.  It is one reason I call Him Lord of Lords and King of Kings.  I will gladly follow Him anywhere.

[lurquer]

Okay John, I hear what your saying.  But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess.  Maybe I'm just a tad thick.   

I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup.  And he did drink it to the dregs.  But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27).  But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.

I don't want to be misunderstood, though.  His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured.  I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!".  Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter.  But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.

Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers.  He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off.  The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead.  (john 26:32)