> General Discussions
"of" or "in"?
Gina:
--- Quote from: lurquer on January 04, 2015, 09:21:59 PM ---Gina and Kat,
Excellent responses...thank you for your thoughts--and I agree with them completely!
But I didn't mean to suggest that Christ was doubting his Father... I was more thinking he was maybe doubting himself in that hour. His flesh, that is. In all other instances where we read of Christ's TRUST in his Father (e.g., all miracles he'd performed), we know he had said "Father, I know you always hear me, but I say these words for the benefit of those here, that they may know that I am He..." (paraphrasing). He never showed any doubt in his Father's ability.
But when it came down to his final act...His very death... He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure. And it was horrible. And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake. Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture: they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams). I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect! They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.
So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak". But WHO was he talking about? Himself or the disciples? Whose flesh was most weak at that moment? Theirs or his? Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.
Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed). I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin. I'm not convinced either way. :-\
--- End quote ---
I understand how you feel, Michael. And that is something that God will pull you through and settle you on in His own good time. How in the world did Christ do that and not doubt? Well he didn't doubt as the songwriter suggests. He was tempted in all points as we were -- all points, yet without sinning.
What you see there happening in the garden is not Jesus doubting at all but He was struggling to not give in to his desire to be delivered from what He knew He had to go through -- the salvation of the world was depending on His being able to go through it, and so of course he was struggling, but doubting? No. He didn't doubt He could go through it. When it got to the final hour, He didn't want to go through it. And who could blame Him? He was struggling against the temptation to back out of what He had to go through. That's not doubt.
Jesus told his disciples to watch and pray so that they wouldn't fall into temptation.
Hebrews 12
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
But even though doubt is sin, Jesus came to save us from all that too. He didn't rebuke Thomas when Thomas doubted, he said, come on over and put your hands in my side. He understands these things. He didn't rebuke the man who said, Yes, Lord, I believe but help my unbelief (doubt). See?
That is a hard thing to meditate on, that Christ actually was afraid -- I mean, he goes around telling his disciples "fear not!" and there He is struggling to not give into fear. Well, so what? Who can blame him for that? Maybe if some never had a leather belt rip their back apart so bad that they couldn't hardly walk or lay down or sit down for a week and their clothes stuck to the bloodied wounds, maybe they couldn't be sympathetic to or understand his desire to let that cup pass. And His Father wouldn't let Him grow faint or weary. And the same faith that got Jesus through what he endured is the same faith that's going to get us all through our trials and suffering.
I mean, listen, Sarah, Abraham's wife, she doubted that God would give them a child. But her doubt was no match for the promise of God. The promise wasn't given to her. God didn't make a deal with Sarah. He made a deal with Abraham, who believed God. God's faithful even when we are not. And I think that's what we're witnessing there in the garden. Not doubt, but God's faithfulness to us sinners. I don't know how else to say it.
I hope that helps a little. Sorry for the longwinded reply. And welcome to the forum! :)
Kat:
--- Quote from: lurquer on January 04, 2015, 09:21:59 PM ---He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure. And it was horrible. And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake. Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture: they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams). I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect! They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.
So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak". But WHO was he talking about? Himself or the disciples? Whose flesh was most weak at that moment? Theirs or his? Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.
Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed). I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin. I'm not convinced either way. :-\
--- End quote ---
Hi lurquer, yes the disciples were grieved by what Christ had been telling them, but they really had no idea what was about to happen, not really. They were confused and they saw the anxiety and distress He was in and it effected them, so they were upset too. Now you ask;
"So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak". But WHO was he talking about? Himself or the disciples? Whose flesh was most weak at that moment? Theirs or his?"
Of course He was speaking of the disciples, He knew what was about to happen, but they just could not comprehend what was happening that very night or they would never have been able to sleep.
Yes He was greatly distressed about what was about to happen... that should prove that He was very much human (not just God that looked like a man) and would feel and suffer every bit of the pain that was coming. BUT He was NOT questioning/doubting whether He could/would go through it, He was maybe seeking His Father to see if this was the only way, He did end His pray with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will," which was His
When He said in verse 41 "Watch and pray, lest YOU enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak," He was speaking of the disciples weak flesh, their carnality, certainly not Himself.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
v. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Our Savior struggle was not if He would be able to complete His mission, but He was seeking His Father for help in the terrible agony He was feeling, and no doubt He received that help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lurquer:
Hi Gina,
Thanks for helping me understand that better. You and Kat are very good at clarifying things. I certainly find no fault in what either of you said. I especially appreciated what you said about fear, rather than doubt.. I much better comprehend that.
I think we're all in agreement about what happened in the garden. I still want to say though, that I don't think we're using the word doubt the same way.. Doubt can mean "unbelief" (as in unbelief in the promises of God).. I don't think Christ ever experienced that as that would be sin. But it can also mean "uncertainty" or lack of understanding. Perhaps an incomplete knowledge of something (as in, "I doubt this bridge can hold us"). Now if God SAID it would hold, and I doubted, he'd probably let me sink like Peter when he walked out to Jesus on the water--just to make the point ;)
But, maybe I still wonder if he had any "uncertainty" while he was in the flesh.. How much did he really "know"? I mean if he was praying to the Father to maybe "see if this was the only way", like Kat said (and I think she's right about that), doesn't it mean he was "unsure"? Did he ever have that sort of doubt?
And now that we've had this discussion, I probably won't appreciate Sympathy for the Devil as much any more. :(
Gina:
Yeah, I don't know what to say. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. I would like to be able to answer your question, but maybe this is one of those things that needs to be worked out over time because it is a heavy, heavy topic. (I can't hardly bear the thought of what he went through, it's so sad! And saying it's sad just doesn't even come close to doing it justice.)
But maybe this will help -- maybe it won't. But I thought of how Jesus said he'd be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. So, as far as I can tell from what I know and read, He had no doubt what he was in for, and that he was coming out of the heart of the earth, because after all, Jonah came up out of that whale. He knew that Jonah came up out of that whale because after all, He was the one who caused that entire thing with Jonah to come about from the start to finish.
Remember when He said "I am the resurrection and the life"? So that is a clear indication that He knew He wasn't going to be left in the tomb or that God would fail to raise him up from the dead. I can't think off the top of my head of more scriptures where Jesus spoke of events that would take place after His resurrection at the moment, forgive me.
I don't believe that doubt is as great a sin as some other sins, of course not. We all doubt. But Jesus obviously had been around the Romans quite a bit during his earthly ministry and knew all about crucifixions, so I'm sure he had no doubt in His mind or heart about just what he was about to suffer. I don't think He was the first to be crucified by the Romans, and his crucifixion was prophesied long before it ever occurred -- and who inspired the psalmist to prophecy Jesus' crucifixion? Jesus - the Logos, the Word. Sorry, I just don't understand your dilemma about him having doubts.
Now, you and I would be having major doubts! But we're not talking about us. We're talking about Christ. He was terrified to the core. I'll say it again, I can't hardly bring myself to think about what ... see just thinking about what they did to Him (and even though I know it was all planned by God himself) makes me want to flip and go crazy on those people and that's not right -- this is a very hard topic to be thinking about. I really don't like to think about it. It tears my insides apart.
Here's an email that Ray did. It may or may not answer your questions, but I'm just putting it out there so that you can see that Jesus was in sheer terror.
God bless you, Michael. I am praying that God helps you in your search for the truth.
Gina
Email response from Ray:
I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah." Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone.
"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!
And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this:
"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).
The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11616.msg100492.html#msg100492
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: lurquer on January 06, 2015, 07:07:44 PM ---Hi Gina,
Thanks for helping me understand that better. You and Kat are very good at clarifying things. I certainly find no fault in what either of you said. I especially appreciated what you said about fear, rather than doubt.. I much better comprehend that.
I think we're all in agreement about what happened in the garden. I still want to say though, that I don't think we're using the word doubt the same way.. Doubt can mean "unbelief" (as in unbelief in the promises of God).. I don't think Christ ever experienced that as that would be sin. But it can also mean "uncertainty" or lack of understanding. Perhaps an incomplete knowledge of something (as in, "I doubt this bridge can hold us"). Now if God SAID it would hold, and I doubted, he'd probably let me sink like Peter when he walked out to Jesus on the water--just to make the point ;)
But, maybe I still wonder if he had any "uncertainty" while he was in the flesh.. How much did he really "know"? I mean if he was praying to the Father to maybe "see if this was the only way", like Kat said (and I think she's right about that), doesn't it mean he was "unsure"? Did he ever have that sort of doubt?
And now that we've had this discussion, I probably won't appreciate Sympathy for the Devil as much any more. :(
--- End quote ---
Hi Lurquer,
Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts.
Strong's
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Jesus Christ had the spirit of God without measure.
John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."
Christ spoke many things for the benefit of those around him and who would come after. For the benefit of those who would believe on Him. As Kat said earlier, the most likely reason for why Christ said what He did at the cross was not due to His lack of faith, or doubt, or uncertainty in the flesh, but for OUR ADMONISHMENT. To bear witness to the Jews that He was who He was and for us who would come afterwards.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
John 11:42 And I knew that thou [The Father] hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
In Christ,
Alex
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