bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: "of" or "in"?  (Read 22788 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gina

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2015, 01:22:02 PM »

Hey, Michael :)

I'm glad that we're kinda on the same page.  Thank you for acknowledging the points we were making.   I was praying to God it wasn't in vain and it would help some.  It's gonna take time.  We certainly don't understand it all -- how could we?  We see through a glass darkly too.
 

You are right, and I agree and thanks for being honest about how you feel.  It is definitely NOT a simple thing for the human mind to understand.

Quote
But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it,


How about the times the pharisees tried to have him killed/thrown off cliffs during his ministry, but Jesus escaped through their hands, because it was not yet His time.  He was acquainted with grief before the garden. 

But imagine how effective he would have been during His earthly ministry if that garden anguish was with him the entire time?  Ya know?  God couldn't let that be at the forefront of his mind during His ministry where He was healing people.  I mean think about the fact that as a soldier, soldiers prepare for battle before the war and once they're on the battlefield if they were to be terrified (as I'm sure I would be) to the point of death on the battlefield the whole time, they wouldn't be able to do much in the way of protecting their country.  If their hearts were "melting" on the battlefield before they had approached their "last enemy" [i.e. death] what would their reaction have been when they finally did meet death face to face?  And not just any death on the field, where you're shot through the head  point blank and didn't see the bullet coming.  Jesus saw it all coming long before it actually took place.  He knew but he also had work to do before that.  The images of what was about to happen he was well aware of.  He talked about being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth to his disciples -- he knew what it was going to be like, but the disciples had no earthly idea!  I'm sure he thought about it a lot!  After all, Jesus came to earth only to... DIE as a sin-offering for the sins of mankind.  He knew that's where he was going, but that thought could not be at the forefront of his mind or His heart would have melted long before then.  And we don't know!  He could have prayed many, many times in secret.  We don't know.  He was always going up to the mountains to get away from the crowds. 

It'd be like knowing you have a gene that will eventually cause you to develop prostate cancer or something.  And you're fine with it (sorta) emotionally and psychologically you can function quite well, but when the doctor comes in and says...  You better get your things in order, it's only going to be a few days....     My knees would buckle!

 
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2015, 01:49:53 PM »

Okay John, I hear what your saying.  But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess.  Maybe I'm just a tad thick.   ;)

I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup.  And he did drink it to the dregs.  But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27).  But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.

I don't want to be misunderstood, though.  His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured.  I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!".  Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter.  But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.

Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers.  He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off.  The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead.  (john 26:32)

Friend,

You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.

Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted.  Jesus was a human man.  He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human.  Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers.  All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.

Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense.  When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action.  The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time  that action occurred.  Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense.  English does not have an aorist tense.  Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken.  Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death.  If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too.  But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier.  Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.

The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side.  Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died.  The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.

The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood.  All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood.  The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah.  When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2015, 03:02:44 PM »

Okay John, I hear what your saying.  But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess.  Maybe I'm just a tad thick.   ;)

I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup.  And he did drink it to the dregs.  But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27).  But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.

I don't want to be misunderstood, though.  His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured.  I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!".  Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter.  But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.

Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers.  He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off.  The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead.  (john 26:32)

Friend,

You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.

Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted.  Jesus was a human man.  He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human.  Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers.  All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.

Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense.  When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action.  The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time  that action occurred.  Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense.  English does not have an aorist tense.  Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken.  Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death.  If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too.  But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier.  Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.

The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side.  Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died.  The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.

The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood.  All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood.  The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah.  When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.

John, I am very glad you stepped into this discussion. I was starting to think we were going in circles here with Lurquor.

God bless you brother, I (And im sure many others) benefit greatly from your input. Please continue to share your wisdom in these matters that may not always be completely black and white though perhaps this one should have been settled long ago as I had found it to be. I only admonish you to share more often because you always have thoughtful responses that are edifying for the body.

Sincerely and with love,
Alex
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 03:18:45 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2015, 03:19:00 PM »


Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted.  Jesus was a human man.  He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human.  Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers.  All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.

John it is quite obvious as you say that all of Jesus' works were done by the Father, but that was true before He was a man and is now as well... His power is always from the Father, so it a matter of how you look at it I suppose.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Jesus did say to His disciples that He could pray to the Father and He would provide Him all the help He needed... so I think He actually could have come down from the cross if He desired to.

Mat 26:52  But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
v. 53  Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
v. 54  How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

To say that He had no Godly powers... well how was He God then? He most certainly was God and had great power as is witnessed in many Scripture.

Mat 21:19  And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.

He did not need to pray to the Father for this to happen, He did it, and yes by the power/Holy Spirit from the Father in Him. There is also when the woman was healed "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him."

Mark 5:25  Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years,
v. 26  and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse.
v. 27  When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment.
v. 28  For she said, "If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well."
v. 29  Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction.
v. 30  And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My clothes?"

Another thing is He was literally walking on the water and called Peter to walk on it too.

Mat 14:26  When they saw him walking on the water, they were terrified. "It's a ghost!" they said, and screamed with fear.
v. 29  "Come!" answered Jesus. So Peter got out of the boat and started walking on the water to Jesus.

Also Jesus could read the thoughts in peoples minds.

Mark 2:6  And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7  "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8  But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?

Mat 12:24  Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
v. 25  But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Luke 9:47  And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him,
v. 48  and said to them, "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

He is one with the Father with the power of God, this was always the case, during His His time on earth as He said there and of course before and after as well.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2015, 03:43:02 PM »


Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted.  Jesus was a human man.  He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human.  Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers.  All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.

John it is quite obvious as you say that all of Jesus' works were done by the Father, but that was true before He was a man and is now as well... His power is always from the Father, so it a matter of how you look at it I suppose.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Jesus did say to His disciples that He could pray to the Father and He would provide Him all the help He needed... so I think He actually could have come down from the cross if He desired to.

Mat 26:52  But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
v. 53  Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
v. 54  How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

To say that He had no Godly powers... well how was He God then? He most certainly was God and had great power as is witnessed in many Scripture.

Mat 21:19  And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.

He did not need to pray to the Father for this to happen, He did it, and yes by the power/Holy Spirit from the Father in Him. There is also when the woman was healed "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him."

Mark 5:25  Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years,
v. 26  and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse.
v. 27  When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment.
v. 28  For she said, "If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well."
v. 29  Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction.
v. 30  And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My clothes?"

Another thing is He was literally walking on the water and called Peter to walk on it too.

Mat 14:26  When they saw him walking on the water, they were terrified. "It's a ghost!" they said, and screamed with fear.
v. 29  "Come!" answered Jesus. So Peter got out of the boat and started walking on the water to Jesus.

Also Jesus could read the thoughts in peoples minds.

Mark 2:6  And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7  "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8  But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?

Mat 12:24  Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
v. 25  But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Luke 9:47  And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him,
v. 48  and said to them, "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

He is one with the Father with the power of God, this was always the case, during His His time on earth as He said there and of course before and after as well.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

Good post too. I think as you stated in the first line, it is a matter of perspective. Christ did say; 

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

It appears to me that the things He did do were through the spirit of His Father that His Father gave Him which He now gives to us.

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 15:2 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Some of the passages you quoted to say "perceived in His spirit..."

Mark 2:8 "But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? "

As you opened your post with Kat, so will I end mine with:

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Seems like you are both saying the same thing, merely one is from the relative perspective while the other from the absolute.

God bless,
Alex
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2015, 03:44:09 PM »

Hi Kat,

I believe your understanding is not quite complete on this matter.

Busy day at work.  Don't have much time or my study materials with me.

But I know you know the Scripture where Jesus stated that of Himself He could do nothing.  And that it was the Father in Him that did all the works.

I believe Jesus.

Jesus was a human on the earth about 33 years.  Before that He was the Almighty God.  After His Resurrection He had all power in heaven and earth.  But for those 33 years He had emptied Himself of all His powers.  (See the Scripture in Philippians chapter 2)

Everything He did while in human form, all the miracles, were by God the Father.  Read His prayer to the Father in John when He raised Lazarus back to life.  The Father did that.

Ray agreed with my above statements.  He wrote somewhere that it was the Father Who did all the works.

It is the lack of understanding of some of how Jesus was for those 33 years that makes some think there are two Gods:  1) a Father God and 2) a Jesus God.

The Scriptures teach there is only One God.  In Col 1:15  we learn the invisible God is the Father and Jesus is the visible image of this One God.  One God.  The Father and Jesus are two sides of One God.  But as Paul wrote, "not many know this."

I'm sure you moderators do not want to get that discussion going again, so I'll shut up.   ;D ;D ;D  But it is the Truth, it cannot be contained; I believe Jesus will teach the Elect the details in the next age.  But a few now know the Truth.
Logged

Gina

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2015, 05:11:25 PM »

Is it possible you misunderstood Ray and the words of Jesus Christ? 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through him, and without HIM was NOT any thing made that was made.

4 In HIM was life, and the life was the light of men.

14 The Word became flesh and made HIS dwelling among us.  We have seen his glory, the glory OF THE ONE AND ONLY SON, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, AND I Myself am working."

18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son ALSO does in like manner

Phil 2:6 Although he was in the form of God and EQUAL WITH GOD [how much clearer can it be said] , he did not take advantage of this equality
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2015, 05:39:38 PM »

Is it possible you misunderstood Ray and the words of Jesus Christ? 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through him, and without HIM was NOT any thing made that was made.

4 In HIM was life, and the life was the light of men.

14 The Word became flesh and made HIS dwelling among us.  We have seen his glory, the glory OF THE ONE AND ONLY SON, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, AND I Myself am working."

18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son ALSO does in like manner

Phil 2:6 Although he was in the form of God and EQUAL WITH GOD [how much clearer can it be said] , he did not take advantage of this equality

No.

But if you quote Scripture, maybe you should read on: Philippians 2:7-8.

but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.



Jesus was equal with God.  He emptied Himself.  Of what?  Of being God.  He became a man in order to die.  As Ray brought out, a God cannot die or be killed.  But a man can die.

This really is not hard to understand.  As a man, everything Jesus did, He did not do Himself.  As Jesus said, Of His own self, He could do nothing.

Water to wine; feeding 10 thousand people; healing people of their sicknesses; raising Lazarus from the dead;---all these things were not done by any inherent power in Jesus because He was a human man.  It was the power of the Father that did all the works.  Easy peasy.  God 101.
Logged

Gina

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2015, 05:44:20 PM »

Furthermore:

Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 

Was it the Father who took away the sin of the world, or is it the Son of the Father? 

Behold, the Lamb of God [Jesus Christ] who takes away the sin of the world. 

Jesus Christ, not the Father, was nailed to the cross. 

It wasn't the Father who died on that cross and Who volunteered to be spit on and suffer terrorizing agony at the hands of wicked sinners. 

It wasn't the Father who carried the cross. 

It wasn't the Father who did that, it was Jesus Christ. 

Jesus Christ, BY THE POWER OF the Holy Spirit which came from His Father, was actually the one who was doing all of what His Father commissioned Him to do. 

Far be it from me to look Jesus Christ in the eyes and declare to his face that He didn't actually DO anything during His ministry or that He didn't voluntarily subject himself to die a horrible death on the cross, or is not my Redeemer, or that he didn't spill His OWN precious blood for my sins.
Logged

Gina

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2015, 05:46:05 PM »

I'm out of this thread, John.  So help me God!
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2015, 06:12:02 PM »

I'm out of this thread, John.  So help me God!

Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?  James 3:11

Speaking of Paul's teachings...in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.  2 Peter 3:16

It was Jesus Who said that of Himself, He could do nothing.  Jesus' words, not mine.
Logged

Gina

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2015, 07:24:54 PM »

Why would Father glorify the Son if the Son hadn't done anything deserving of the glory. 

I'm not bitter, I am following the promptings of the Holy Spirit which is telling me to leave this thread, and then you TEMPT me by calling me "bitter" and "unstable"?  Hey, Jesus said, Answer a fool accordingly, and answer NOT a fool accordingly.  That's what I'm doing, John.  That's what I'm doing.  By the power invested in me by the Holy Spirit, of course.  But the fact remains, I'm actually the one doing it.  And God will reward me according to the works that I have done whether they be good or evil. 

He will hold me accountable for my words, just as he will you according to the things you have spoken. 

« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 07:27:11 PM by Gina »
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2015, 07:35:35 PM »

Why would Father glorify the Son if the Son hadn't done anything deserving of the glory. 

I'm not bitter, I am following the promptings of the Holy Spirit which is telling me to leave this thread, and then you TEMPT me by calling me "bitter" and "unstable"?  Hey, Jesus said, Answer a fool accordingly, and answer NOT a fool accordingly.  That's what I'm doing, John.  That's what I'm doing.  By the power invested in me by the Holy Spirit, of course.  But the fact remains, I'm actually the one doing it.  And God will reward me according to the works that I have done whether they be good or evil. 

He will hold me accountable for my words, just as he will you according to the things you have spoken.

I reacted to your use of God's name in a vain manner, as an oath.

May it be as you said.  Let God judge.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2015, 07:43:17 PM »


Jesus was God!

Mat 1:23  "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."

That is not an assumption it was announced by an angle sent from heaven.

His being one with the Father is what made Him God too, one God. Jesus was not separate from the Father when He came down into the flesh, They have always been one and always will be.

The Holy Spirit of/from the Father is always what has worked through Jesus, when He was the OT God, when He was in the Flesh and now, God does not change, that is the way it will always work. The Son was made God of this creation from beginning to end, and that included while He was in the flesh. As God the works that were done while in the flesh, were certainly done by the power of the Holy Spirit in Him, which He had without measure. But He plainly says they were done by Himself.

John 10:25  Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

John 5:36  But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 10:38  but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2015, 08:13:38 PM »


Jesus was God!

Mat 1:23  "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."

That is not an assumption it was announced by an angle sent from heaven.

His being one with the Father is what made Him God too, one God. Jesus was not separate from the Father when He came down into the flesh, They have always been one and always will be.

The Holy Spirit of/from the Father is always what has worked through Jesus, when He was the OT God, when He was in the Flesh and now, God does not change, that is the way it will always work. The Son was made God of this creation from beginning to end, and that included while He was in the flesh. As God the works that were done while in the flesh, were certainly done by the power of the Holy Spirit in Him, which He had without measure. But He plainly says they were done by Himself.

John 10:25  Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

John 5:36  But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 10:38  but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat, in regards to the works,

I think its important to note that (From what i'm observing in scripture) Christ never refereed to His works without first referring to the Father. The Father through Him, He being the conduit, turns the Father's works into His Works. Much like this verse;

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The very same reason Paul could say this:

1 Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Therefor:

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

This allows Christ to say that without the Father He can do nothing and yet also declare that He is working.

John 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 08:19:32 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2015, 08:53:24 PM »


Hi Alex, I totally agree that is the way God works, the power came from Father that Jesus used to do what He was doing. But there are Scripture where He does not first pray to the Father...

Mat 21:19  And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.

When Jesus walked on the water was it the Father walking through Him? Of course not. When He was reading the minds of the Pharisees was the Father whispering to Him their thoughts?  In Mark 5 when the woman touched His robe and was healed the power came from Him, verse 30 "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him," this was power in Him that went out from Him.

Now of course that power in Him was the Holy Spirit was from the Father, that's where all power comes from, the Father, because the Father is greater (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). Jesus went back to the Father (John 14:12; 16:16; 20:17) because that was the source of everything, He is now at the right hand of that power (Matt 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69) this is symbolic of where His power comes from, but it is His to use as God of this creation.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v.2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3  who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 09:01:03 PM by Kat »
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2015, 09:36:25 PM »


Jesus was God!

Mat 1:23  "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."

That is not an assumption it was announced by an angle sent from heaven.

His being one with the Father is what made Him God too, one God. Jesus was not separate from the Father when He came down into the flesh, They have always been one and always will be.

The Holy Spirit of/from the Father is always what has worked through Jesus, when He was the OT God, when He was in the Flesh and now, God does not change, that is the way it will always work. The Son was made God of this creation from beginning to end, and that included while He was in the flesh. As God the works that were done while in the flesh, were certainly done by the power of the Holy Spirit in Him, which He had without measure. But He plainly says they were done by Himself.

John 10:25  Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

John 5:36  But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 10:38  but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

You're preaching to the choir here.

For the longest time I have believed, following Ray's lead and finding tons of Scriptures, that God is One.  That there is only One God as the Scriptures teach.  I'm glad someone else is coming around to that understanding.  I was told by many that I was wrong.  I'm glad I'm not the only one anymore.

But there are several Scriptures where Jesus tells us that of Himself, He could do nothingNothing.
Alex has quoted some of them.  So since Jesus says it, it is so.  His words are truth.  Two paramount truths learned from Ray: 1) God does not lie, 2) God's Word does not lie.

From Philippians 2 we learn that Jesus emptied Himself.  From Jesus' own statements, we learn He could do nothing on His own.  This was for the approximately 33 years He was on earth as a man.  Jesus' statements on this point cannot be ignored.

Just because Jesus didn't pray before a miracle doesn't mean Jesus did it.  Jesus followed His own statements and prayed to the Father privately, without fanfare, without bringing attention to Himself.  Which is why I detest public prayers; Jesus tells us to pray in private.

When Lazarus was raised from the dead is an example of when Jesus acknowledged praying to the Father so that those around would know that Lazarus was raised by the power of God.

I don't want to argue the point further.  Everyone is at their own level.  Jesus is working with everyone on an individual basis.  As the Scripture says, "All will know Me, from the least to the greatest."

But failing to distinguish Jesus from before and after he was a human (33 years) causes some misunderstandings.
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2015, 09:52:04 PM »


Hi Alex, I totally agree that is the way God works, the power came from Father that Jesus used to do what He was doing. But there are Scripture where He does not first pray to the Father...

Mat 21:19  And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.

When Jesus walked on the water was it the Father walking through Him? Of course not. When He was reading the minds of the Pharisees was the Father whispering to Him their thoughts?  In Mark 5 when the woman touched His robe and was healed the power came from Him, verse 30 "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him," this was power in Him that went out from Him.

Now of course that power in Him was the Holy Spirit was from the Father, that's where all power comes from, the Father, because the Father is greater (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). Jesus went back to the Father (John 14:12; 16:16; 20:17) because that was the source of everything, He is now at the right hand of that power (Matt 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69) this is symbolic of where His power comes from, but it is His to use as God of this creation.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v.2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3  who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

As for the flower withering. I am in agreement with John on this. Not everything Jesus did was brought about through public prayer. This was done for our benefit and those around Him. I shared some of these verses earlier in the thread and I will again:

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

John 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
John 11:42 And I knew that thou [The Father] hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it,that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Never the less, it doesn't mean that Christ didn't rely on His Father for these other things. I think there are a few more of these examples but currently I havn't searched them out.

Now Jesus also said:

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Even Jesus' very own words were inspired and caused by the Father from on high.

Now as for the how he understood the pharisees thoughts, it tells us:

Mark 2:6  And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7  "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8  But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?

Where did this spirit come from? This holy spirit? From the Father who gave it to Christ. Yes, it now belongs to Christ, but it originated from the Father. It was through this power of the spirit that Christ could discern their intentions and thoughts.

I don't disagree that Christ has power but while Christ was in the form of a man and emptied of His divinity, that power came from His Father. He plainly states that of Himself He can do nothing as John re-iterated. "Nothing" is a pretty final. I'm trying to see a way around it but I just can't... I don't know... I'll pray about it some more. Thanks for the engaging discussion.

Love to you,
Alex

P.S. I agree too that there is only one God and Christ is God with power but while He was in the form of a man, emptied of His divinity, I believe He relied on the Father for everything.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 10:08:43 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lurquer

  • Guest
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2015, 12:21:30 AM »


Friend,

You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.

Indeed.  We all do.

Quote
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted.  Jesus was a human man.  He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human.  Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers.  All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.

Semantics, John.  Jesus said he could at any time call "legions of angels" and be relieved of his sufferings.  He also said his "Father always hears me".  The source of his power: Father.  Controller of the power:  Jesus.  But he always had the power of God, even as a man.  Therefore he was (always) God.  Exactly in the same capacity as we shall be one day. Not hard to understand...just Semantics. Easy peasy.

But you then went on later to say that "he emptied himself of being God".  No He didn't.  What he emptied himself of was his former GLORY... In the flesh, He was still God. Deniest thou that, John?

Quote
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense.  When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action.  The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time  that action occurred.  Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense.  English does not have an aorist tense.  Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken.  Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death.  If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too.  But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier.  Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.

The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side.  Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died.  The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.

The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood.  All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood.  The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah.  When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.

Great language lesson, John.  Doesn't make you or I a Greek expert though.  I have the Rotherham's Bible and guess what!  It is as you stated in Matthew 27.  I never saw it till now! Thanks for the pro tip.  :) Sincerely, that is an interesting fact. But it is still a quibble, IMHO.  And curiously still, it doesn't seem to mesh with the other accounts of his death.  Maybe he was stabbed twice--once to kill him, and again to prove he was dead when they broke the legs of the others!..  Otherwise, why the specific reference to it in the other gospels (especially John's account) after the fact? Because John said "we are witnesses to his death"... Being stabbed, shouting out, and closing your eyes is one thing... Being stabbed again through the heart under the ribs and being motionless is definitive proof one is DEAD.  This proof of death--and resurrection, as John directly stated, was the very purpose of his gospel.  My .02 anyway.

So, touche, John. You may have baited me into that, but thanks anyway--I learned a factoid.  But again, the specific moment of his death, I think, is still a quibble.

Anyway, John, many have (and I certainly otherwise would) find you quite offensive.  You call me "friend" but you speak to me like a fool.  But like I said in my introduction earlier, I may be a new member, but I'm not 'new'. I have an advantage over you: I've been a here a good while "lurking", and I know you pretty well; you don't know me.  I expect rudeness.  I take no offense, though. It's just how God made you.  :D

And as for your disciple, Alex, I know you too.  8)  You're already tired of "going round in circles" with this Lurquer guy--I already have your head spinning in just one thread?  Man up brother.  You ain't seen nothing yet.
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: "of" or "in"?
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2015, 01:37:34 AM »


Friend,

You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.

Indeed.  We all do.

Quote
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted.  Jesus was a human man.  He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human.  Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers.  All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.

Semantics, John.  Jesus said he could at any time call "legions of angels" and be relieved of his sufferings.  He also said his "Father always hears me".  The source of his power: Father.  Controller of the power:  Jesus.  But he always had the power of God, even as a man.  Therefore he was (always) God.  Exactly in the same capacity as we shall be one day. Not hard to understand...just Semantics. Easy peasy.

But you then went on later to say that "he emptied himself of being God".  No He didn't.  What he emptied himself of was his former GLORY... In the flesh, He was still God. Deniest thou that, John?

Quote
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense.  When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action.  The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time  that action occurred.  Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense.  English does not have an aorist tense.  Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken.  Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death.  If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too.  But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier.  Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.

The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side.  Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died.  The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.

The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood.  All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood.  The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah.  When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.

Great language lesson, John.  Doesn't make you or I a Greek expert though.  I have the Rotherham's Bible and guess what!  It is as you stated in Matthew 27.  I never saw it till now! Thanks for the pro tip.  :) Sincerely, that is an interesting fact. But it is still a quibble, IMHO.  And curiously still, it doesn't seem to mesh with the other accounts of his death.  Maybe he was stabbed twice--once to kill him, and again to prove he was dead when they broke the legs of the others!..  Otherwise, why the specific reference to it in the other gospels (especially John's account) after the fact? Because John said "we are witnesses to his death"... Being stabbed, shouting out, and closing your eyes is one thing... Being stabbed again through the heart under the ribs and being motionless is definitive proof one is DEAD.  This proof of death--and resurrection, as John directly stated, was the very purpose of his gospel.  My .02 anyway.

So, touche, John. You may have baited me into that, but thanks anyway--I learned a factoid.  But again, the specific moment of his death, I think, is still a quibble.

Anyway, John, many have (and I certainly otherwise would) find you quite offensive.  You call me "friend" but you speak to me like a fool.  But like I said in my introduction earlier, I may be a new member, but I'm not 'new'. I have an advantage over you: I've been a here a good while "lurking", and I know you pretty well; you don't know me.  I expect rudeness.  I take no offense, though. It's just how God made you.  :D

And as for your disciple, Alex, I know you too.  8)  You're already tired of "going round in circles" with this Lurquer guy--I already have your head spinning in just one thread?  Man up brother.  You ain't seen nothing yet.

Hi Lurquer,

This is what I understand of Christ emptying Himself:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here we learn a little more of what this is about. When it says “mind” it is the disposition of God Himself. Where it says “equal with God” it is the same amount or degree and so on. 

“Being in the form of God…”  is being inherently in the form of God. Inherently, that’s an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right. I thought now that is interesting, that's 'before' He became man, He was by birth - inborn. 

Strong’s uses the word, He existed as a 'innate.' Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth. That is what it means, a right by or through birth. Jesus Christ was BORN. To which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you... as a little boy in a manger? He was His Son, 'from the beginning!' The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, from the beginning. Now it says. 

Phi 2:6  …thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.

So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers. What did He do? Where it says, "He made Himself of no reputation," the KJ margin says, He empted Himself of all His privileges. I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean you’re not going to kill Him. He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was. He voluntarily did that, “He took it on Himself,” you see. He was made low enough to kill. It says in Hebrews, “A little lower than the angels,” so they could kill Him. How was that accomplished? He emptied Himself of everything God had given to Him. I guess God could have taken it away, but He didn’t take it away, Christ gave it up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you say Christ always had the power of God, even as man.

Now perhaps then you can explain to me how Christ emptying Himself of His privileges, all of them, means only relinquishing His glory and not His power too? Can you kill Christ if He had the power of God while man? What does it mean to have the "power of God?" I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Paul says the MAN Christ Jesus gave HImself as a ransom for all, not the GOD Christ Jesus:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
                 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In Christ,
Alex
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.049 seconds with 22 queries.