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Public Apology
lilitalienboi16:
Dear Forum,
I apologize for my conduct in the thread which degenerated from Christ's words in the garden and at the cross into the topic of Christ's power and relationship to the Father. While I don't feel I mislead anyone on matters of what Christ said in the garden and at the cross, the issue of Christ's power and even His relationship to God as being God and one with God is a gray area for not only many but this forum as well. I do believe the issue returns time and time again because our God is trying to drag us to that complete understanding of Him but regardless I should not have been apart of the confusion, if there was any, and for that I am deeply sorry. The last thing I would want is to cause anyone confusion.
Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word! Now, that being said as well, I cannot see how Christ retained His Godly power(s) and only emptied Himself of His "glory" IF He could be killed. Though the scriptures don't specifically state Christ emptied Himself of just His glory either. Would not retaining the power of God prevent Him from truly taking on the form of a SLAVE and coming in the likeness of man to die? Perhaps these are thoughts we currently don't have the wisdom as a body to answer and in time God will provide it or perhaps we will never know it to a 100% certainty. If anyone feels they believe to know how these two things are possible and it is not something taught by Ray then feel free to send me a private message and I will try the matter and search the scriptures out to see if it is so. If ray did explain this dichotomy then please feel free to share that here in this thread as I'm sure many could benefit.
Anyway, I apologize if I was apart of any confusion for any on this latter more complexing issue. If the mods feel any of my posts added to any confusion or contrary to ray then I would kindly ask they be removed from that thread for future eyes that may stumble upon it.
As for me now, I won't rest until I figure this out! Its time to search all the gospels through and through because I just need to know. This issue keeps coming up here and like I said, I think its for a reason! Keep on digging my brothers and sisters and may God bless you in your searches to know Him more fully.
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
In Christ,
Alex
Kat:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on January 10, 2015, 11:12:07 AM ---Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word! Now, that being said as well, I cannot see how Christ retained His Godly power(s) and only emptied Himself of His "glory" IF He could be killed. Though the scriptures don't specifically state Christ emptied Himself of just His glory either. Would not retaining the power of God prevent Him from truly taking on the form of a SLAVE and coming in the likeness of man to die? Perhaps these are thoughts we currently don't have the wisdom as a body to answer and in time God will provide it or perhaps we will never know it to a 100% certainty. If anyone feels they believe to know how these two things are possible and it is not something taught by Ray then feel free to send me a private message and I will try the matter and search the scriptures out to see if it is so. If ray did explain this dichotomy then please feel free to share that here in this thread as I'm sure many could benefit.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex, I'm going to try to put something together that may help with this.
God gives us all a human spirit when we begin this life, I believe He also puts a spirit of life in spirit being as well that gives them individuality. This is what I can see that Ray indicated by this email.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ----
the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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Now that spirit that gives us life, for us it's a physical/carnal spirit that helps us survive in this world, it is not the Holy Spirit that is another Spirit that God gives.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God.
Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Because Scripture speaks of God's heart and mind, I think all being have this... now maybe our heart and mind is not exactly like angels, but I do believe they have a capacity to think and reason as well.
The words heart and mind are hard to distinguish in Scripture as they are uses interchangeably, but we can still gather from Scripture that Christ certainly had these elements to His being. Here is an email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4178.0 -------------
No, the heart is not "just a pump." In fact it is very rare that the heart is represented in Scripture as a literal organ of the body. The "heart" of man is the seat of his deepest moral and emotional feelings.
But, no, it is not the "mind." There are separate words for "heart" and "mind" in Scripture. The mind pertains more to the intellect.
You have heard that statement: "You make me sick to my STOMACH," haven't you? The reason for this is, that deep and profound emotions can be felt in the mid-section of our torso. The people of Mesopotamia thought that the liver was the center and cause of these emotions. The Hebrews realized that it was the heart that pumped the life-sustaining blood throughout the body, hence the heart was considered the center of emotional and moral conduct (be it evil or good). This is why Jesus taught that evil thoughts of lust and hate and sin come from the heart, rather than from the mind.
One may compose a love letter in one's mind, but the feelings are coming from that part of our psyche called the heart. Likewise a murderer may make the technical plans to carry out his dirty deed in his mind, but the motivation is in his heart.
We all need to [1] "Let this MIND be in you which is also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5), and [2] "Take up My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, because I am meek and and humble in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls" (Matt. 11:29).
God be with you,
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Now what I am trying to establish is that the Son had a spirit of Life along with the Holy Spirit of God (without measure) and this was transferred into the mortal body that He received when He was born into the flesh to make Him a living soul. He certainly retained the mind/knowledge of God, because He remember who He was and where He came from...
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
With this mind Jesus processed the attributes of God and certainly would have included the knowledge/relationship He had with the Father. This is assumptions, but I do not see how He would have been God, nor knew and did the things He did without that mind. Why would that be removed anyway? His mind was what recorded His experiences and His spirit at death was sent back to the Father until His resurrection.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3617.0.html ---
Man is "made up" as you put it of body and spirit. Soul is not an ingredient. Soul is the RESULT of uniting the spirit with the body. God made man of the dust of the ground and breathed His spirit into Adam, and then Adam BECAME A LIVING SOUL. God did not put "a soul" inside of Adam. When men die, the spirit returns to God, for spirit does not die. The body returns to the dust of the ground. The soul goes (that is ceases) to exist and is said to be in "sheol" or "hades" which is the realm of death, it is not a geographical location. Man has no memory or thoughts in death (Ecc. 9:5, etc., etc.).
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What I believe was removed from Him when He came into the flesh was certainly not His mind/understanding or the Holy Spirit, but His immortality, He became mortal - Son of Man, lower/less/inferior to the angels in that they have immortality and He no longer did.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (NKJV)
Heb 2:9 But, Jesus, made some little less than messengers, we do behold: by reason of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, to the end that, by favour of God, in behalf of every one, he might taste of death. (Rotherham)
Heb 2:9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who has been made some bit inferior to messengers (because of the suffering of death, wreathed with glory and honor), so that in the grace of God, He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone." (CLV)
How was Christ's immortality removed from Him? Well I don't know, but certainly the Father was capable of doing that. So at Jesus' birth instead of God giving Him a human spirit that was a clean slate like we got, He had His own mind put within that tiny baby. What that must have been like for Him growing up is really hard to imagine, but was part of what He had to experience to be fully man, everything that we have to.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
v. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
Hi Kat,
Thanks for taking the time to share that. It was helpful but I have to confess this part of your post confuses me:
"So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
How does the spirit consist of the mind and heart if when we die, and the spirit returns to God, we lose all consciousness? Ray said Christ's spirit returned to God but that He was dead, lacked consciousness. So wouldn't we retain consciousness if the spirit contained the mind and heart? Wouldn't Christ have been conscious then if His mind and heart was in His spirit? I thought it was the combination of the spirit (breath of life) and body (dust of the earth) that gives rise to our SOUL which is the consciousness (mind) and heart (personality)?
I have no contention with the rest of what you posted but still wonder why we are so adamant it was merely his Glory He emptied Himself when Paul does not specify but only compares the being equal to God prior to making that statement of emptying Himself.
Php 2:6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
It just says He emptied Himself and really doesn't specify exactly what that constitutes but the fact that He could now die just made me think that this would include more than just His "glory." Now just to be clear, I've never thought Christ relinquished the mind of God because by the Holy spirit of His Father, He did not have a carnal mind like we do.
Thank you.
God bless,
Alex
rick:
Hi Alex,
I don’t see why you should apologize for speaking what you honestly believed to be the truth, if we discover by the grace of God our belief is off then of course we repent and change our belief towards the truth.
I know we can all identify with our belief system being off because of the teaching of Christendom
God bless you my brother in Christ.. :)
Kat:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on January 10, 2015, 03:16:04 PM ---"So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
How does the spirit consist of the mind and heart if when we die, and the spirit returns to God, we lose all consciousness? Ray said Christ's spirit returned to God but that He was dead, lacked consciousness. So wouldn't we retain consciousness if the spirit contained the mind and heart? Wouldn't Christ have been conscious then if His mind and heart was in His spirit? I thought it was the combination of the spirit (breath of life) and body (dust of the earth) that gives rise to our SOUL which is the consciousness (mind) and heart (personality)?
--- End quote ---
Okay Alex, what I'm saying is that the spirit of man and Christ and all spirit being I would assume, when united with a body (physical body or spiritual body) that's what gives it a soul. That is what contains the mind - heart (not talking about a physical heart here) the soul that is formed when spirit and body combine/unite. So that mind and heart (seat of our emotions) in us is what gives us consciousness and the ability to think, reason, love, hate, etc... as Ray said so many times, we have he ability to make our own choices.
Here is a little excerpt from an article.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -----------------
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
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When the body dies and then the body and soul dissolves, returns to dust, no body no soul. The spirit of life given at birth no longer has a place/body to give it life/animation and the Father receives it back to Himself.
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
That spirit that God has received back has all the information of who that person is within it, it is the person's mind and heart, so to speak. But those things only function in a body, and at death it is asleep and will remain unconscious until God wakes the spirit up at resurrection by giving it a new body, either spiritual (elect) or another physical body for those not written in the Book of life (Rev 20:15).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html -------
At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ---
No, sheol is not the grave. There is another word for grave. Sheol is the "state" or "realm" or "condition" of the dead. And the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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