Public Apology

[lilitalienboi16]

Alex, we are all prone to "mis-speaking".  I reckon the only ones who don't are the ones who never speak.  I could show you places Ray "mis-spoke".  To his credit, he NEVER SAID HE DIDN'T.

Do you think the Scripture says the same things so many different ways and in so many different "flavors" because the more we know of them, the better we understand?  Is that why "scripture cannot contradict itself"?  Doesn't James further explain Paul? 

Does 'scripture' contradict our understanding at various points along the way?  Does it contradict our theologies and doctrines along the way?  Does it contradict our behavior along the way?

Hang in there.  Sometimes even the English language is "mis-speaking".  We just have to do the best we can.  As for me, not everything fits in a forum post any longer. 

 

Thank you Dave. Ray did say that all of God's Word was one.

I don't know... I am overwhelmed at how complex and full of wisdom this Word of God's is. I sit down to study it as I am inspired and I always end thinking, "God there is just way too much here! How am I ever going to get this? I won't... I can' t understand it with my own wisdom and my own mind. Please open my eyes and ears." I think that so very often. It is overwhelming, all of this. Its not easy but if it were then it would not be the honor of kings to search it out, now would it? I am grateful to God that we have at least come to know Him this much, even if it is still, only a small part of who He is and what He is teaching us. I pray He reveals Himself more and more to us, there is nothing greater than to truly know who He is.

God bless you, Dave.

Alex

[Kat]

Alex, I hope we are not going down the rabbit hole with this. Trying to pull together my thoughts, with Ray thoughts and the Scripture with this is proving quite difficult. I will not say impossible, because we know all things are possible with God.

I'm thinking that the soul and the spirit and then the heart and mind as well are so tightly interwoven that you cannot have one without the other, but they are all somewhat different in there functions. So trying to find out where the heart and mind originates... did I say it was in the spirit? I had to go back to the beginning and figure out what I said, because that not really my thinking. Here is a comment I made in my first post to you...

Now that spirit that gives us life, for us it's a physical/carnal spirit that helps us survive in this world, it is not the Holy Spirit that is another Spirit that God gives.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

So what I'm getting at is that as spirit beings, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God.

So now I see what you keep referring to, it's in that last part I was talking about spirit beings - angels... I said "this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well." I was talking about the spirit being or angel there. So there is where I miss lead you by not being clear... sorry about that. Whole other topic.

But continuing on with what you are saying, these words are so interchanged in the Scripture that it can be very hard to find the difference. I do look at the Greek and Hebrew words, and that does help, but it's still confusing. Ray mentioned that in an email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7163.0 -------

Dear Reader: It is hardly possible to differentiate between heart and mind by using  Strong's Dictionary of the Greek and Hebrew languages, as he over-laps every definition with each word. Mind has to do more with intellect, intelligence, rational reasoning, analysis, creativity, etc.  The heart has more to do with emotions, feelings, compassion, love, lusts and desires.  We do not analytically and rationally decide that a good thing to do would be to go down to the beach and lust after women in bikinis.  Nor do we normally work our way through a difficult mathematical problem by figuring it out in our heart.  A person with a very good MIND, may nonetheless, have a very evil HEART. Can you see a difference?  I'm not saying that there is no overlap, but can you see a difference? Can you see the necessity for two words to describe two different forms of sentient behavior as opposed to being confined to only one word to describe these differences?  It's too big a subject for an email to go into all the many Scriptures to differentiate where the King James may or may not have it backwards. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

    God be with you,
    Ray
----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway does that clear up any of the confusion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Alex, I hope we are not going down the rabbit hole with this. Trying to pull together my thoughts, with Ray thoughts and the Scripture with this is proving quite difficult. I will not say impossible, because we know all things are possible with God.

I'm thinking that the soul and the spirit and then the heart and mind as well are so tightly interwoven that you cannot have one without the other, but they are all somewhat different in there functions. So trying to find out where the heart and mind originates... did I say it was in the spirit? I had to go back to the beginning and figure out what I said, because that not really my thinking. Here is a comment I made in my first post to you...

Now that spirit that gives us life, for us it's a physical/carnal spirit that helps us survive in this world, it is not the Holy Spirit that is another Spirit that God gives.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

So what I'm getting at is that as spirit beings, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God.

So now I see what you keep referring to, it's in that last part I was talking about spirit beings - angels... I said "this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well." I was talking about the spirit being or angel there. So there is where I miss lead you by not being clear... sorry about that. Whole other topic.

But continuing on with what you are saying, these words are so interchanged in the Scripture that it can be very hard to find the difference. I do look at the Greek and Hebrew words, and that does help, but it's still confusing. Ray mentioned that in an email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7163.0 -------

Dear Reader: It is hardly possible to differentiate between heart and mind by using  Strong's Dictionary of the Greek and Hebrew languages, as he over-laps every definition with each word. Mind has to do more with intellect, intelligence, rational reasoning, analysis, creativity, etc.  The heart has more to do with emotions, feelings, compassion, love, lusts and desires.  We do not analytically and rationally decide that a good thing to do would be to go down to the beach and lust after women in bikinis.  Nor do we normally work our way through a difficult mathematical problem by figuring it out in our heart.  A person with a very good MIND, may nonetheless, have a very evil HEART. Can you see a difference?  I'm not saying that there is no overlap, but can you see a difference? Can you see the necessity for two words to describe two different forms of sentient behavior as opposed to being confined to only one word to describe these differences?  It's too big a subject for an email to go into all the many Scriptures to differentiate where the King James may or may not have it backwards. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

    God be with you,
    Ray
----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway does that clear up any of the confusion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Yes, I see that we were more or less on the same page but some words led me to believe that you were trying to say something else.

I also agree that this is very hard to nail down and ray makes a good explanation of why. It seems they are very tightly intertwined and trying to unwind it all to find where one begins and the other ends is much more difficult than it appears on the surface.

According to Genesis, body and spirit makes man a living soul. Man doesn't have a soul, he is a living soul. I suppose we should be content with understanding at least that bit of truth.

I could only speculate from that point forward so I suppose I will leave it to that.

So... did we determine where the heart and mind originate from then or are we awaiting a more certain answer from our God?

Mercy, peace and love to you dear sister.
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

bound together, tightly wound, inextricably intertwined, thoroughly blended, a complete solution--salt water, mud.  And without Him, nothing...


 

[Kat]

Yeah Dave, that's the way I see it too. You don't have the one without the other. So I don't know if I'd say it originates from anything in particular, they together, maybe...

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Mike Gagne]

Gen 2:7 and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  Ecc 9:5  for the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing,...  If I know nothing then it is in God where everything goes and it is also in Him how it  comes ... P S Dave I never said I was a spiritual man having a physical experience!😉😀 . I am reading and listening to LRays teachings!  I hope you are not referring to me as being religious! 😃 I notice that we are all still religious/carnal in our own ways and God is working is us!  I read and respect all the post here, I should say that everyone's post are awesome and I appreciate them all. Being a uneducated man can have its difficulties in understanding some of the post, but God works through it with me and that's why I am still here! God Bless you all! 😊

[Dave in Tenn]

No, Mike.  I wasn't calling you out personally.     Of course we all have limited minds to digest all this and we all came from different 'traditions'.  I just didn't want your post to be lost in the thread when there was an answer/confirmation to it. 

[Mike Gagne]

No, Mike.  I wasn't calling you out personally.     Of course we all have limited minds to digest all this and we all came from different 'traditions'.  I just didn't want your post to be lost in the thread when there was an answer/confirmation to it. 

.     Lol, told you Dave I wasn't that educated!! 😅 thank you Dave and everyone for there patience with me😀

[lilitalienboi16]

Good posts all around. Thank you Moises, Dave, Mike and Kat. I think we have exhausted our understanding at this point and I am content with what appears to be where I started

The Lord is clearly not done with us yet! This body of Christ is still being worked on, but hey! I'm glad to be apart of it with you all.

God bless,
Alex

[Rene]

Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word!

Alex,

I found a place where Ray actually stated that Jesus emptied himself of His divinity.  This was stated back at the Mobile 06 bible conference.  Here is his statement:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html

"He was God and He emptied Himself of all His power and glory and majesty and divinity. So He could be made and fashioned into a man, so He could die."

But also in the same bible study, Ray made this comment as well:

"Only God is to be worshipped, the leper came and worshipped Him (Matt. 8:2), the chief, worships Him (Mat. 9:18), and the woman came and worships Him (Matt 15:25). Rev 1:8  "I am the Alpha and the Omega ... the Almighty." That's Christ, God. "And the Word was God," (John 1:1) Thomas said, when he felt the holes in Christ's body, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Christ did not correct Him."

More yet to be learned.

René

[Dennis Vogel]

I heard Ray say that Jesus did not empty Himself entirely recently on an audio.

[lilitalienboi16]

Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word!

Alex,

I found a place where Ray actually stated that Jesus emptied himself of His divinity.  This was stated back at the Mobile 06 bible conference.  Here is his statement:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html

"He was God and He emptied Himself of all His power and glory and majesty and divinity. So He could be made and fashioned into a man, so He could die."

But also in the same bible study, Ray made this comment as well:

"Only God is to be worshipped, the leper came and worshipped Him (Matt. 8:2), the chief, worships Him (Mat. 9:18), and the woman came and worships Him (Matt 15:25). Rev 1:8  "I am the Alpha and the Omega ... the Almighty." That's Christ, God. "And the Word was God," (John 1:1) Thomas said, when he felt the holes in Christ's body, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Christ did not correct Him."

More yet to be learned.

René

Thank you for finding that Rene. I think what Dennis said is important too.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Yes Ray has many articles and that gives us much to consider, but he would have been learning through the years as he studied, and the Scripture are still revealing things for sure.

Here is a comment Ray made at the "Is Jesus God" bible study in March of 2011.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html --------

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT HE (what?)... that came down from heaven,

"He that came down He ascended up to heaven. He was not dead yet, this was BEFORE the resurrection! This was in His ministry. So here is a Scripture that says , He went to heaven before He died or His resurrection. He came down from heaven and He said the same one that came down, that's the One that ascended up! Most people read over that, but it is there, it does say it."

"See I don't think He emptied Himself of everything that was, all knowledge everything. I don't think so. [Comment: Maybe He emptied Himself of something.] Yes He did, of course He did. He emptied Himself of some prior glory that He had."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are a couple more Scripture that certainly show He still have some glory as a human.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 2:11  This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat