Tribulation?

[octoberose]

Could you tell me where to find Ray's discussion of the tribulation - and his explanation that there are many tribulations and not just one great tribulation? I know he teaches that, I'm just not sure of the verses he uses.  And along with that,  the antichrist and the prophet? Thank-you. 

[Kat]

Here is where Ray discusses these things.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1887.0.html -----

Dear oj:

There is no such thing as "the Antichrist" or "THE antichrist." There is no such boogeyman in Scripture.  Check your Bible. This is just another Christian fable as "THE great tribulation."  You'll not find it in the Scriptures either.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm --------------------

Look at the first time "judgments" is used in the New Testament:

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out!"  (Rom. 11:33).

"Judgments" from God are wonderful things. Too bad we don't appreciate them.

And notice what John tells us in Revelation:

"And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments"    (Rev. 16:7).

It is not by escaping tribulation that we enter God's Kingdom (as in the unscriptural rapture theory), but by going "through much tribulation."

The phrase "The great tribulation" is used hundreds of thousands of times by the Church, and yet (just as there is no such thing as "THE antichrist") there is no such phrase in the Bible as "The great tribulation." Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation alright, but not just one called "The" tribulation.
v

"Immediately after [does everyone understand the difference between 'before' and 'after?'] ...immediately after the tribulation of those days.... He  [Jesus] shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet [I Cor. 15:52], and they shall gather together His elect [for the first time, I might also add] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29 & 31).

One other major point: Clearly this verse and others show that Christ returns "after the tribulation of those days." "But in those days, after the tribulation... shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His Elect..." (Mark 13:24 & 27).   

And Jesus is said to come in wrath:

"...hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come..." (Rev. 6:16-17)

"And the seventh angel sounded... [the seventh trump is the last trump, I Cor. 15:52] ...and Thy wrath is come..." (Rev. 11:18)

The days of "great tribulation" end at Christ's presence, and the day of "His wrath" begins at His presence. They are two separate and different events, and different judgments on different people for different purposes. If you have not seen or do not understand the absolute differences in Scripture between tribulation and affliction versus wrath and indignation, then be sure to read my ten-page section dealing with it in detail, in my paper "Exposing the Secret Rapture Theory."

Tribulation is almost exclusively administered to God's people.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2160.0 --------

Dear Bonnie:

Contrary to all Christen doctrine of prophecy, there is no such thing as "THE" great tribulation. Great tribulation is, will be, and always was on God's chosen people. Paul tells us that it is through great tribulation and trial and suffering that we must enter the Kingdom of God.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=14488.0 --------

hello Ray:

Below is a statement from your "Lake of Fire" series, part D4. I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to point out to the readers. Are you speaking of just the one tribulation, or is there more than one? At least three other bibles that speak of the great tribulation/affliction. Could you please explain?

The phrase "The great tribulation" is used hundreds of thousands of times by the Church, and yet (just as there is no such thing as "THE antichrist") there is no such phrase in the Bible as "The great tribulation." Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation all right, but not just one called "The" tribulation. Here how the unscriptural "Secret Rapture to Heaven" theory is taught:

Rev 7:14 And I have declared to him: "My lord, you are aware.And he said to me, "These are those coming out of the great affliction. And they rinse their robes, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin."(CLV)
Rev 7:14  And I at once said to him—My lord! thou, knowest! And he said unto me—These, are they who come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb; (Rotherham)
Rev 7:14  And I say unto him, my lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (ASV).

Thanks,
Frank

Dear Frank:

Actually, there is no phrase: "THE great tribulation" in the King James which is the Bible used by most of the world throughout the last four hundred years.  Although as you show, it could be argued that in Rev. 7:14 reference is made to [the] great tribulation at that particular time.  My point is contained in my sentence that you quote: "Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation alright, but not just ONE called 'The' tribulation.

In fact, I go through every single use of the word "tribulation" in the entire Bible, and it should be evident to everyone that these dozen references are not speaking of the same "one" tribulation, but many tribulations on many different people at many different times in history.  However, virtually all of these tribulations mentioned in Scripture are on God's elect, and that is what I cover in this study on tribulation. You ask if I am speaking of "just the one tribulation, or is there more than one?"  Yes, of course there is more than one.  How can God's elect go through some tribulation people termed "THE great tribulation," when God's elect live all through the ages, and not just during one specific period of time in which there is to be found, "THE great tribulation?"

The phrase "great tribulation" is found only three times in Scripture:  Matt. 24:21, and in Rev. 2:22 and 7:14. Look at the two in Revelation:  Does the "great tribulation" Rev. 2:22 have anything in common with the "great tribulation" of Rev. 7:14?  No, of course not.  Notice for example, that those who do not have the doctrine of Jezebel will be spared these burdens spoken of in verse 24.  I hope this helps you understand better what I was teaching.

God be with you,
Ray

Here are the verses Ray referred to and the part of Revelation 2.

Mat 24:21  for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 2:18  And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, He who has His eyes like a flame of fire and His feet like burnished metal, says these things:
v. 19  I know your works and love and service and faith and your patience, and your works; and the last to be more than the first.
v. 20  But I have a few things against you because you allow that woman Jezebel to teach, she saying herself to be a prophetess, and to cause My servants to go astray, and to commit fornication, and to eat idol-sacrifices.
v. 21  And I gave her time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
v. 22  Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent of their deeds.
v. 23  And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.
v. 24  But to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, and who have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak, I will put on you no other burden.
v. 25  But that which you have, hold fast until I come.
v. 26  And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
v. 27  And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.
v. 28  And I will give him the Morning Star.
v. 29  He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

[octoberose]

So, Matthew 24:21 is referring to what? I am really dense when it comes to end time things- I always have been. God just hasn't given me this to see as easily as some other things.
I understand the elect will change in a twinkling . They will be with Jesus for 1000 years (weather that is figurative or literal I do not know). The world will be judged in a lake of fire (God is fire) and will be redeemed.
But, I still don't really understand this. Back to the Lake of Fire series I guess.
(Thx Kat, I knew you'd help.  )

[Kat]

Well in Matt 24 if you will notice at the beginning of that chapter Jesus was speaking of the destruction of the Temple, then the disciples ask Christ 2 questions, I think they thought the Temple's destruction and the end of the age were one and the same thing.

Mat 24:1  As Jesus left the Temple and was walking away, his disciples came up to him to point out to him the Temple buildings.
v.2  But he told them, "You see all these things, don't you? I tell you with certainty, there isn't a single stone here that will be left standing on top of another. They will all be torn down."
v. 3  While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things take place, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

So as you read down through this chapter, it seems that Jesus first tells about the destruction of the Temple and the other things, famine, earthquakes, wars etc. that would happen throughout this age. He starts speaking in verse 4 about this age and continues down through verse 26. Then in verse 27 He begins speaking about His return all the way to the end of the chapter.

Mat 24:27  because just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

That's the way I have made sense of the chapter. So I believe that verse 24 is speaking of the destruction of the Temple and how devastating it was physically and mentally for the Jewish nation. With the end of the Temple it brought about the end of the Jewish way of life and most of the Jews that lived there, that's why Christ told them to flee away from there to the mountains. Also with it's end I believe it symbolized the completion of the end of the old covenant.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

The Antichrist may not be scriptural but I agree with Ray..

"Everyone in religious circles is looking for the beast, OUT THERE somewhere. If we are to find the beast OUT THERE, we might question whether he was ever IN HERE? That there "is, was, and will be" a beast OUT THERE, I have no doubt. But of what great concern is that to us? The only beast we need to concern ourselves with is the beast "within," "the man of sin." Just as the many-member beast comes "up out of the sea" [of humanity], we too came up out of the sea of humanity."

The beast/antichrist that I should be concerned with is the one in me.. But that there is a beast/antichrist OUT THERE, I have little doubt.

[octoberose]

I guess I think the value in knowing end times is that we are to know what these things are. What's the verse about  "if it were possible to deceive the very elect? " Well, if we don't know what is to come and what is to be, than it's easier to be deceived.
Ray had to have been thinking along these lines when he wrote about the Towers falling. It seemed to him things were falling into place in a way he had never seen before  (I'm guessing).

[Kat]

I guess I think the value in knowing end times is that we are to know what these things are. What's the verse about  "if it were possible to deceive the very elect? " Well, if we don't know what is to come and what is to be, than it's easier to be deceived.
Ray had to have been thinking along these lines when he wrote about the Towers falling. It seemed to him things were falling into place in a way he had never seen before  (I'm guessing).

Here's a few Scripture from Christ that I have found to help me.

Mat 24:37  For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
v. 38  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
v. 39  and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

1Th 5:1  But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
v. 2  For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
v. 3  For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
v. 4  But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
v. 5  You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
v. 6  Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
v. 7  For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

Christ will return as a thief in the night or without warning, so we should watch and be ready and how do we do that? Not by worrying about what is happening in the world, Paul told us how to be ready.

1Thess 5:8  But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

It certainly sounds to me like the elect will not be caught off guard from the scriptures I can recall. I said before that the christian world is awaiting "THE great tribulation" where they will be "raptured" away. They are expecting a man to sit on a physical throne in literal isreal and declare himself the creator of the universe and at this the whole world will be fooled and worship him. They are awaiting the literal bar codes on the forehead or hand as the mark of the beast not realizing that it is man himself that is the beast.

However, we know that Christ can return at any moment and so we don't await an end time scenario like described in the T.V. series "Left behind." For this reason, because we are always watching, we can't be caught off guard, well at least as long as God upholds us. God can and will keep us.

It's hard to watch all the chaos in the world right now and not think that Christ's return is very near. How long can this continue? But then again paul say's in Thessolonians that they will declare "safety and peace" and THNE sudden destruction. Certainly we can't declare that right now... it's madness out there! Then again.. how much more mad was this world when it was all at war? Think about those living through world war II and what they must have thought. Surely Christ was returning now they must have said! Yet here we are.

And yet... I think there is a lot to the fig tree and her leaves being put forth. Ray was not inspired to right his paper without good reason, at least I have a hard time believing that he was not inspired by God to do it.

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

Take this for what it is worth.

The 'conflict' that most troubles the world right now is not simply 'nations shall rise against nations'.  Though the US (and the west in general) can't seem to get out of that mindset.  The 'conflict' is religious.  And that's (to my mind) a tie-in to the passage in Matthew 24. 

It's scary what ISIL actually believes.  They are not looking for an earthly 'victory'.  Indeed, in their own interpretation, they are sure to be (almost) defeated, and this is what will bring about 'the end of the world' and the coming of the messiah.  It's as if Jim Jones were setting up a 'state' expecting all his followers to be killed.

I'm going out on a limb here, I know...but Jesus said "love your enemies"..."do good to them that persecute you".  If ISIL's faith is that their 'war' will bring about the 'end-times' by dragging in the whole world against them and almost defeating them, then 'we' may be playing into their hands.  IF 'we' could find a way to obey Jesus, then their prophecy will wither on the vine.

I'm not sure this is possible, however.  But if things get much worse in this religious 'strife', I can imagine the world having quite enough to do with religion.  Then (throwing the baby out with the bathwater) and without the spirit of God, it too will be shaken to it's foundations.  Then 'will He find faith on the earth?'

Anyway...just my thoughts about this very strange 'day' we find ourselves in.   

[Dave in Tenn]

1Jn_2:18  Little children, it is a last hour, and as you heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which you know that it is a last hour.

1Jn_2:22  Who is the liar, except the one denying, saying that Jesus is not the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son.

1Jn_4:3  And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world.

2Jn_1:7  Because many deceivers went out into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh, this is the deceiver and the antichrist.

[Joel]

The way I see it God has a time line, and always has had things going along just as he has planned without exception.
Everyone from Adam has experienced some tribulation, even nonbelievers.
All those listed in Hebrews that died in faith went through much tribulation, do we think we will slip on by without enduring some ourselves?
With a little searching we can see by the scriptures that God does have set times for certain events to take place, and Jesus coming again should not be excluded.

Galatians 4:4- But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

Hebrews 9:26 - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Mark 1:15- And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom is of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Ephesians 1:10- That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

Romans 11:25- For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 21:24- And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Have we suffered any for the cause of Christ? will we suffer with great tribulation in the coming days ahead?

Joel

[octoberose]

I really appreciate your replies.
Isn't it interesting that the verse in I Thes. references labor pains coming upon the woman? Now picture a very pregnant woman who knows not when the day is coming exactly, but she's as big as a house and she knows the day is rapidly approaching! So sudden- yes, but not unexpected or unannounced.
Dave, I had not considered that the conflict was religious. That does make some sense.
Joel, oddly enough the subject of tribulation gives me some sort of comfort. God knew to get my attention that my trib would come from my own family. Is there any among us who have not faced tribulation because of our faith? That ties into what Dave was saying.