> General Discussions
Kingdom of God - of the heavens
Kat:
Hi Michael,
Yes there are many questions...
--- Quote ---Right, but won't some go alive into the Kingdom age when Christ returns? Or are you suggesting that ALL will be slain who are not in the first Resurrection? If so, I'm quite curious as to where you discern that, because I've never seen anything suggesting that in scripture, or in any of Ray's teachings. Could you elaborate? And if you agree that some do indeed go alive into the next Age, why wouldn't they still die and yet not contradict Hebrews 9:27? (They haven't died "once"). This scripture just doesn't "remove all doubt" for me.
--- End quote ---
I do believe there will be many alive on earth when Christ returns, it does say eyes will see Him coming... "every eye will see Him." But I think that this age is for a certain purpose and that has been marrying and to "be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth," and then "to die once," and the cycle has repeated over and over throughout the age. That has been the pattern throughout this age, to be given this physical life and then to die... and then to wait (in the grave) for resurrection. You made a good point though, about those resurrected when Jesus was on earth only to die again later, but that was miracles that stepped out of the normal pattern for this age, an exception if you will.
It just seems to me that this age is about bringing humans into existence, the starting of new life... sex has been the means for that, all the way from the beautiful relationship in a loving marriage, to the horrible violence of rape. This is an age of experiencing good and evil, in all the many various ways for that.
The next age is for a different purpose... judgment on those who have already lived once, the exception is the elect who have already been judged. When this age ends and Christ returns, the pattern that was set for this age will be over... things will be different. There will be those that live through that period, from this age into the next, and I think they will be in a special situation, they are then to partake of the new pattern of the new age. I do not think there will be physical death in the next age... what purpose would that serve? Death is a keeping place for everyone just until they are resurrected. The next age is that judgment - the second death - dying to self. Now after the first resurrection, I can see how the rest could be raised in stages, maybe, Paul did mention "each one in his own order," (1 Cor 15:23).
As for the judgement period, the prophets and patriarchs should only need a really short period to convert to believing in the gospel of Christ, considering they did serve the OT God all their lives and they even spoke about His coming. But Jesus said there are some that will not be saved even in the next age (Matt 12:32). So there could be a very big various in how long it takes for different people, with different backgrounds to repent and be converted. But of course we just do not know for sure how these things will play out in the next age. Hopefully this discussion can help us get more united in our understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lurquer:
Well Kat and Alex, I actually agree with both of your last posts.
One point though, Alex--The fact that I do understand that Hebrews 9:27 is speaking of spiritual death was my point in arguing it the way I did. Kat used it to prove there would be no physical death in the Kingdom Age, but we can't have it both ways, can we? If it is speaking of the spiritual,then it does not remove the possibility of the physical. See?
Nevertheless, I fully accept the sense of your last post, Kat. It seems true to me. The details, I guess, we really can't know, as obviously things will be SO radically different that anything we imagine will probably be wrong. Like my sticking point of the 'sexlessness' of people resurrected with mortal, carnal bodies...I don't get that. But it does seem it must be so if, in fact, there will be no more creation of humans then. How this will work, I have no idea. Maybe John from Kentucky has some thoughts? ;D ;D
I especially like what you said below..
--- Quote from: Kat on February 08, 2015, 11:24:32 PM ---
The next age is for a different purpose... judgment on those who have already lived once, the exception is the elect who have already been judged. When this age ends and Christ returns, the pattern that was set for this age will be over... things will be different. There will be those that live through that period, from this age into the next, and I think they will be in a special situation, they are then to partake of the new pattern of the new age. I do not think there will be physical death in the next age... what purpose would that serve? Death is a keeping place for everyone just until they are resurrected. The next age is that judgment - the second death - dying to self. Now after the first resurrection, I can see how the rest could be raised in stages, maybe, Paul did mention "each one in his own order," (1 Cor 15:23).
--- End quote ---
That I can wrap my mind around. I guess my fixation on the HOW of it is something I should just let go...for now.
John from Kentucky:
Kat & Neo,
My post was intended as humor.
That you didn't quite "get it" is understandable. All my life, I have observed that religious people have a hard time with humor. They all seem to be a little tightly wound.
Most of the speculations in this thread are way off base because the guidance of the two witnesses is not followed.
The speculations are based on the twisting of Scriptures to fit ones preconceived ideas of what the next age will be like. It's all Blowing in the Wind. Human speculation.
God's Words are Spirit, and They are Life, and must be spiritually discerned.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Neo on February 09, 2015, 09:51:39 AM ---Well Kat and Alex, I actually agree with both of your last posts.
One point though, Alex--The fact that I do understand that Hebrews 9:27 is speaking of spiritual death was my point in arguing it the way I did. Kat used it to prove there would be no physical death in the Kingdom Age, but we can't have it both ways, can we? If it is speaking of the spiritual,then it does not remove the possibility of the physical. See?
Nevertheless, I fully accept the sense of your last post, Kat. It seems true to me. The details, I guess, we really can't know, as obviously things will be SO radically different that anything we imagine will probably be wrong. Like my sticking point of the 'sexlessness' of people resurrected with mortal, carnal bodies...I don't get that. But it does seem it must be so if, in fact, there will be no more creation of humans then. How this will work, I have no idea. Maybe John from Kentucky has some thoughts? ;D ;D
I especially like what you said below..
--- Quote from: Kat on February 08, 2015, 11:24:32 PM ---
The next age is for a different purpose... judgment on those who have already lived once, the exception is the elect who have already been judged. When this age ends and Christ returns, the pattern that was set for this age will be over... things will be different. There will be those that live through that period, from this age into the next, and I think they will be in a special situation, they are then to partake of the new pattern of the new age. I do not think there will be physical death in the next age... what purpose would that serve? Death is a keeping place for everyone just until they are resurrected. The next age is that judgment - the second death - dying to self. Now after the first resurrection, I can see how the rest could be raised in stages, maybe, Paul did mention "each one in his own order," (1 Cor 15:23).
--- End quote ---
That I can wrap my mind around. I guess my fixation on the HOW of it is something I should just let go...for now.
--- End quote ---
Hi Neo,
I see it completely differently. If physical death is not required to enter judgment, and the next age is about judgement, then when humanity is raised, there is no reason for them to ever have to physically die again because that was never the requirement in the first place. Physical death will serve no purpose.
To John:
Good admonishment and I think we would all do well to remember some of these basic scriptural truths when trying to make a point. We need witnesses! Two or three!
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -----------------------------
[A] "…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).
"…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).
[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).
This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.
v
But we learned that no witness can stand alone. We must have at least TWO WITNESSES to establish the truth of any doctrine.
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Yes I absolutely agree with this and believe it should be applied in our studies to find truth of doctrine. But I really do not believe we are discussing doctrine here, this is more of a logical consideration of what the 'physical' might be like in the next age.
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on February 09, 2015, 10:44:02 AM ---I see it completely differently. If physical death is not required to enter judgment, and the next age is about judgement, then when humanity is raised, there is no reason for them to ever have to physically die again because that was never the requirement in the first place. Physical death will serve no purpose.
--- End quote ---
Alex, I'm not sure I understand what your saying here.... the point of physical death is as Ray stated many time "When people die, they are dead. This is not a terrible thing. God likens death to sleep in many many Scriptures. The only hope of the dead is a resurrection from the dead." When the actual resurrection has happen, at the end of this age, what is the point of physical death after that?
When Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that was actually him living this life, as we all do... we are given a brief life - eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of a relatively short life (Gen 6:3 - says 120 yrs), we live, we sin, because we're carnal, then we die, God told Adam it would be that way. This has been the cycle of life that has happened generation after generation throughout the centuries. But when Christ returns He ends this vicious cycle and cast death into the lake of fire. Here is wher Ray spoke on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -------------------------
This is precisely what God told Adam would happen if he ate the forbidden fruit:
"Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying" (Gen. 2:17, Concordant Literal Old Testament).
Here is what our dictionaries tell us: "death, n. 1. the act of dying; the termination of life. 2. The state of being dead. 3. The cause of dying" (American Heritage College Dictionary). This is really important to remember. The word death denotes an ACT, STATE, & CAUSE. It will be nothing but confusion if we do not keep all three of these in mind when dealing with the abolition of "death."
All three of these definitions are true in actual fact. One is no more true than the others. So when God tells us that "the last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), it must include every and all aspects of what death really is. Death will no longer be the cause of anyone going through death in the act of dying, neither will there be any more dead people in the final state of death. But will Christians accept the abolition (or destruction) of the ACT of death, the CAUSE of death, and the STATE of death, as representing what Jesus Christ will, literally and spiritually "destroy?" No, of course not. How could they then continue hanging on to their hatred towards others with their torture in hell for all eternity for those they don't love, doctrine?
Death itself will be destroyed, or as the Concordant Version renders it: "the last enemy being abolished: death." (It is more likely to abolish something that is inanimate rather than to destroy it as the King James translates it).
So we have the act, the state, and the cause, all being the definition of "death." Hence all three must be abolished or there will yet remain some form of death which would then continue to be an eternal "enemy" in God's creation.
The lake of fire/second death is how God deals with the sins of humanity. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity (I John 2:2). But what it seems the whole Christian world is failing to see, understand, and experience, is GETTING THE SIN OUT OF THE SINNER. How spiritually blind can we be. After Jesus has died for the sins of the world, the world continues to sin. Surely we can see from the Scriptures that God wants to get the sin out of His Elect.
If Jesus died to save sinners, is He going to save only some sinners? His chosen Elect only? By saving a few chosen elect sinners, does that make Jesus Christ, "The Saviour OF THE WORLD" (I John 4:14)? God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ commissioned Jesus "TO BE the Saviour of the world." Will Jesus be justified by His Father if He saves only a FEW?
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened which is the books of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:12).
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).
When the "dead... stand," we are being presented with a resurrection from the dead. For this is exactly what resurrection means (anastasis in Greek means, "to stand up again"--See Strong's #386 translated 'resurrection'). It is in resurrection that "the dead... stand" before God. And yes, since we know Revelation is a book of spiritual symbols, we would be correct in stating that it is "the SPIRITUALLY dead" who are standing before God.
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So when people are raised up from the grave, death has served it's purpose in holding those individuals until resurrection. One thing that I have not been able to find in a second witness to the Scripture of "it is appointed for men to die once," (Heb 9:27). Of course it is a truth, but that shows we have to be careful when we place rules over the Word of truth.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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