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[lurquer]

Well, I for one am sorry the last thread on speculation of the Kingdom Age was shut down.  It got sidetracked by the (IMO) very carnal desire of one member to believe in the continuation of sex in the Age to come...albeit "outside of marriage".  This was winked at by others because of the cloak of "no two witnesses to specifically disprove it".  This cloak was used because the original cover of "it was just a joke" was exposed for what it was not...Too bad.

A silly thing to argue or debate anyway. Sophomoric speculation like that was not the point of the thread.

Anyway, the legitimate subject came up of what was the true nature of marriage (in this age and the next).  Some of Ray's words from his study on marriage were used to support one side.  I said I did not agree with them, and was called ignorant, and "a fox", unlearned in the scriptures, and one who obviously had no scripture myself to back up my beliefs. 

That was a false challenge, because we all know to bring up scripture which tends to refute something Ray may have said or believed is immediate grounds for dismissal.  Kat posted a snippet of Ray's ideas on marriage at the end (which I cannot directly comment on for the reasons explained).  But I'll bring up an excerpt:

"What is a wedding? The act of marrying, the ceremony of a marriage, the exchanging of vows, the covenant agreement. That’s what marriage is. Interesting, marry - to wed, to unite a man and woman in wedlock, it’s the uniting process, it’s not the going to bed process on the honeymoon. It’s the actual uniting, the wedding, the wedding feast, the nuptials, the contract, the oaths."

Because I find this subject as interesting as the one we were caused to leave aside, but obviously much more relevant (and important!) I thought I'd ask a question that I've asked before.  I never received an answer, but perhaps someone else here has...

If being "married", that is, the biblical definition of marriage, results solely from a ceremony, which is itself only the means for the stated end of "exchanging vows", taking an "oath", or speaking a "covenant or contract", then what is the vow?  What exactly is being "vowed"?  What does the contract need to say to be 'biblically legitimate'? In other words, if the true definition of marriage is a written or verbal formula--the magic words, if you will--shouldn't we know what they are?  Wouldn't that be all-important?  Because, that itself, according to Ray, "is what marriage is."   And IF a contract establishes a marriage, all contracts can be broken by one side not following through...What grounds then does the contract specify will void the contract? You see if the contract theory of marriage is true, these are utterly important matters.  (I am not being sarcastic or facetious).

Marriage is taking a vow..  Once you have taken the vow, then you have taken the vow, making you 'duly married'--a "vow-taker"...  I won't be the  one to suggest that's a tautology (I'll let another make that suggestion), but I will say it really reminds me of a video clip I once saw of a cop arresting a public defender--in court--who was attempting to tell her client he could remain silent...As the cuffs went on she asked what she was being arrested for, and he calmly said "you're under arrest for resisting arrest".  If I think about that statement too much, I fear my head will explode.

Anyway, anyone who knows the words, please clue me in.  If anyone has any suggestions for what they may be, I'd love to hear that as well. 

One other thing, if marriage truly is just saying an oath in a ceremony, then how is "gay marriage" illegitimate?  Sodomites know how to say oaths too.   Show me how I have the logic wrong on that as well.

[octoberose]

HI Neo, we haven't 'met' yet.
   I think the thread  is something we should talk about.  Being a typical female myself,  love and marriage go together, however we know Jacob did not love Leah as he loved Rachel and never intended to marry her.  He was tricked into the marriage but still expected to hold up his end of the vow. And how does Genesis say Jacob and Rachel  married? "Jacob went into her" after Laban gave her to him.  However, when sex is impossible, are the couple still not married? And how does the symbolism of Christ and his church make itself known in the marriage covenant?  My thinking is, as I've learned here, that the physical is a manifestation  of the spiritual. It's a quandary no doubt. And one that I think we shall be called to account for because it's Important.
 Now, let's me nice to each other brothers.  We're called to account for how we treat each other also. ;0)

[lurquer]

Hello Ms. Rose,

Very pleased to meet you.

The story of Jacob and Leah is a great starting point!  I think it speaks volumes as to what the scriptures say "marriage" is... or isn't.  For those who have ears to hear..

I'd love to consider the question you asked.  Perhaps together we can figure this riddle out!

(Sorry, no emoticons--John would not approve.. but I'm 'winking').

[indianabob]

Thank you Neo for your careful exposition of that vow idea.
Thank you October Rose for the dove of peace idea.   

Let our words be palatable because we surely shall have to eat them.
There is a saying I was taught by my unbelieving mother many years ago...

"it is nice to be "important/correct", but it is more important to be nice" 

I-bob

[John from Kentucky]

Sorry to break up the love fest.  But as Ray states in the article below all the huggie huggie kissie kissie stuff does leave one feeling a little ill in the midsection.

If some do not understand Ray's marriage study, then his study below probably cannot be understood either.

I better give a warning.  Ray does quote Scriptures in this attached study just like in his marriage study.
I know that quoting Scriptures is not as much fun as speculation and deducing answers from ones intellect, but that's old Ray for you.


"THE KISS OF DEATH"

[Is your love pure or fake?]

I hear a lot of "huggie huggie kissie kissie" pious platitudes from the mouths of today’s religious hobbyists. Personally, it makes me a little ill in my midsection. Most of it is as phony as a three-dollar bill. Could you be guilty of using this emotional charade to deceive those you wish to impress?

There is nothing wrong with hugs, as I am quite fond of them myself. And there is nothing wrong with proper kissing. Paul instructs the assemblies to greet each with "an holy kiss" four times, and Peter instructs its use once, as a "kiss of charity."

The Greek word used is "philema." A "holy" kiss is merely a pure, sacred, ceremonial kiss—a simple kiss. Men no longer kiss men as a form of greeting non-family members in most western cultures—I’m personally kinda glad of that!

People also engage in "hugs and kisses" in their speech and writing. And this too can be fine and acceptable depending upon how it is done. At sixty-five, I still put a few xxxx’s and oooo’s at the bottom of a birthday card to my wife.

However, there is another way that hugs and kisses are used and overdone in which it is a camouflaged front to mask the real person that is no more holy than was Judas.

Had the twelve other Apostles already received the Holy Spirit of God, they would not have had to ask Jesus "who" is was that was about to betray Him—they would have known. Thank God that it is not possible to "deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24).

Like Satan’s ministers of righteousness (II Cor. 11:15), these deceivers are wolves, but they don’t come as wolves. These false teachers and deceivers:

    "…come to you in SHEEP’S clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15).

But you could spot one of these "wolves" a mile off, couldn’t you? Just look for the GIANT TEETH that Little Red Riding Hood encountered, right?

    "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched [Gk: ‘to fascinate by false representations] you…" (Gal. 3:1).

The "wolves" COME IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING! You don’t see their teeth. They don’t show their teeth. They only show you a huggie huggie kissie kissie pious religious smile. THAT my friends, that pious front, IS the "sheep’s clothing." Wolves BITE, and their bite can be deadly:

    "But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another" (Gal. 5:15).

Now then, where are we to find these "wolves and sheep’s clothing" coming with hugs and kisses to deceive and devour? Well, wherever the SHEEP are found.

    "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous [savage] wolves enter in among YOU, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men [and women] arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).

Didn’t we all witness this ourselves in recent months? Are all the wolves gone now? Of course not—there will always be wolves wherever there are sheep.

I’m warning you: Wolves come in "sheep’s clothing," full of smiles, and hugs, and kisses. You will not see their teeth until it is too late.

Judas was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The apostles saw a sheep—Jesus saw a wolf. What was Judas’ ultimate sheep’s camouflage? Why, wasn’t it a simple, sincere, pure, godly "kiss?" Think again.

    "Now he that betrayed Him give them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, the same is He: hold Him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed Him" (Matt. 26:48-49).

You have all seen this drama acted out many times in films—a simple little peck on Jesus’ cheek. Oh really?

The five Scriptures using the word "kiss" from Paul and Peter, always used the Greek word "philema" which means "kiss" and nothing else. In Luke 22:48 we read this:

    "But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betray you the Son of man with a kiss [Gk: a simple ‘philema’ kiss]?"

But in Matt. 26:48, we find something totally different. Judas told the elders and chief priest:

    "…whomsoever I shall [PHILEO—passionate fondness] kiss, that same is He…"

Judas did not have a "philema" kiss in mind at all. The "kiss" in Matt. 26:48 is a "phileo" kiss, and it means a fond, affectionate, passionate kiss, not a simple "philemo kiss." And the elders and high priest knew the different in these two words. One was a peck on the cheek, but Judas determined to use a more a passionate, huggie huggie kissie kissie display in his attempt to betray Jesus to the devouring and ravaging wolves.

This is really intriguing stuff. Now after Judas tells the priest and elders what kind of a kiss he will give Jesus [a phileo kiss] to betray Jesus, He actually delivers this kiss. And how does he do that? He does it with yet another Greek word for kiss, which is, "kataphileo" mean "to kiss EARNESTLY."

This "kataphileo kiss" is used three other times in Scriptures:

    Luke 7:45—"You gave me no kiss [no affectionate ‘phileo’ kiss, Jesus admonishes His disciples] but this woman since the time I came in has not ceased to kiss [‘kataphileo kisses’—earnestly] My feet."

    Luke 15:20—"And he [the prodigal son] arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him [earnestly and passionately with a ‘kataphileo kisses’]."

    Acts 20:37—"And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him [with ‘kataphileo kisses’ of great passion and earnest]."

Is it not abundantly clear that this super emotional use of hugs and kisses was used only on the most RARE occasions of deep and profound emotional circumstances? But this is not proper conduct for everyday behavior. See these over-pious charlatans for what they are. Be suspect of those who use super-pious and sanctimonious hugs and kisses every day of the week.

Now to the Judas Kiss of Death:

    "And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Master; and KISSED HIM."

The Greek is "kisses"—multiple kisses, with ‘kataphilio kisses, just as we find in every single use of this word in Scriptures I showed above.

No, Judas did not betray Jesus with a peck on the cheek; he deceitfully delivered a "huggie huggie kissie kissie, fraudulent hugs and KISSES OF DEATH!

What must we learn from all this? Whenever we pretend to be Christ-like but it’s all a charade, we too are guilty of giving Christ a Judas kiss of death. What a disgusting display of the carnal mind and flesh, Judas has left us. Some have vengeance in their heart, others vanity, others bitterness and hatred, and yet others uncontrollable sins of the flesh, but they try to camouflage their evils with a plethora of hugs and kisses to all.

Don’t be afraid to hug; don’t be afraid to kiss, but beware of such phony displays of pious emotions, as they could be your "KISS OF DEATH."

A spiritual hug to you all, from my heart,

Ray

[santgem]

Actually, there will be sex in the coming age............

            but those who are in Jesus in this age.................no more!



                                    Luke 20:27

                                    Isaiah 65:20-23


The "wolves" COME IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING! You don’t see their teeth. They don’t show their teeth. They only show you a huggie huggie kissie kissie pious religious smile. THAT my friends, that pious front, IS the "sheep’s clothing." Wolves BITE, and their bite can be deadly:





santgem

[Kat]

Hi Michael,

I would like to bring up a point in what is being discussed from Ray 'Marriage" article and that is he is only speaking of the 'definition' of what constitutes a 'marriage' and not what is involved in the actual state of being married. Here are excerpts that show this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.0.html -------

I’m going to talk about what constitutes marriage, not the marriage state of how to have a happy marriage, that’s a subject for another Bible study.
v

It is not what most people think and people will be dumb founded when they find out what the Bible has to say about marriage. I’m going to give you a little secret, the marriage state, that is the institution of two people being married together, sharing their lives together, living in a home producing children, so on and so forth, of that the Bible has virtually nothing to say. Yet the word marriage or marry is in there over and over and over and over… but not the things I just said.
v

(5)  We are espoused or betrothed to Christ. 2 Cor. 11:2 “For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.” This is talking about the betrothal, the espousal even before the wedding ceremony. 

Why does He call us espoused to Christ?  Because we are not married yet to Christ. When are we to be married to Christ? When does the scripture say? In the resurrection, right.  What is that marriage?  What does it say in Rev. 19:7 that we are going to have? “…For the marriage of the Lamb has come…”  It’s a wedding ceremony! It uses the word marriage twice there, in chapter 19. It says marriage, but that’s the contract or the covenant.

Then in verse 9 it adds a word to marriage, “the marriage supper.” This is all part of the festivities of a marriage ceremony, not marriage itself. 

(6)  Numerous times God likens His spiritual union with His Elect saints to that of the physical espousal, physical wedding ceremony and physical wedding supper or feast, with little mention of the conditions of the later marriage itself.

Isa 62:5  For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over you.

So when we read ‘marriage’ in the Bible, especially in the New Test. You are going to have to readjust your thinking. It is not talking about the marriage state, it’s talking about the getting married. Always, getting married, the ceremony.

(7)  Jesus likewise likens His spiritual union with the Elect, with virgins waiting for Christ the Bridegroom to return for a wedding (Matt. 25:10). A wedding - the ceremony and wedding feast/supper of a marriage. 

He’s called the Bridegroom. You know what a Bridegroom is, that is somebody who is not yet exchanged the vows or oath to become the husband. That's why He is the Bridegroom. It all has to do with before marriage and during the ceremony and the supper and the festivities connected with it, almost every place you read it in the Bible.

What this person says in the email is not true, it is totally off base.

(08)  Sex outside of marriage is adultery and whoredom, by definition. Of course most people are guilty of that, yours truly included. But that is the fact, it is called adultery and whoredom. 

Heb 13:4  Marriage (matrimony) is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Marriage would probably been better translated matrimony, that is actually the marriage state, when a couple are married and living together as husband and wife. That institution there, matrimony. But notice what He contrasts it with… matrimony is honorable, what is matrimony? It’s somebody who went through a wedding with exchanging of vows and forming a covenant.
v

Notice what He contrast it with… matrimony. The marriage institution is honorable and the bed undefiled - having sex together as a husband and wife. The word undefiled, that’s kind of a semi-negative to me, the word is pure. Why put undefiled? The word is pure. The marriage bed between a husband and wife is pure in God’s eyes. It’s pure to have sex with your wife or your mate, that’s pure. 

But notice what the opposite is, if it’s not marriage, “…but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” If you are not in matrimony in your wedding bed, what does God consider you? A whoremonger and a adulterer. Now do I need to read Rev. 21:8, “All whoremongers will find their place in the Lake of fire.” Is that not clear enough there? People don’t put these things together. If you are not married, but you live together, you are a whoremonger and adulterer.
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ian 155]

This is my understanding.

As I have said in many posts before The tree of Life has 2 names, Good And Evil

First up to lay a foundation ...the biggest miracle which happened to me thru Rays writings, taught me ...To hear and understand the word Carnally is BAD (our own interpretation /understanding is DEATH)many of us walk in this state.

The good part of tree in the garden is Spirit and Life the Evil part of the tree is Death or carnality.

When Jesus was confronted by the "churchy folk" regarding whose wife is the woman after 7 husbands died...he said

Mat 22:29, "You are deceived, not being acquainted with the scriptures, nor yet with the power of God."
Mat 22:30 for in the resurrection neither are they marrying nor taking in marriage, but are as messengers of God in heaven."

To reiterate what Ray said, Heaven is not a geographical location heaven is IN you.... so heaven is a state of mind and, as far as I can see from the word, a 3rd state /level of heaven (spiritual understanding) is attainable.

In order to enter heaven one MUST be born a new/born again/be resurrected.

With this in mind

Eph 5:31 For this "a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh."
Eph 5:32 this secret is great: yet I am saying this as to Christ and as to the ecclesia.
Eph 5:33 Moreover, you also individually, each be loving his own wife thus, as himself, yet that the wife may be fearing the husband." Note - we are to fear God

So to a higher level of understanding

Jesus is the groom I am the Bride, once I am at a level of spiritual maturity(remember we are as new born babes and we grow) I live as though I am not physically married to a woman
1Co 7:29 Now this I am averring, brethren, the era is limited; that, furthermore, those also having wives may be as not having them,


so if Jesus is becoming my all, he is in me and I am in him (we become one). Physically the 2 become 1 flesh; spiritually I and Christ become 1 in spirit.

We then, also have spiritual offspring

So the “50 shades of Grey” stuff is not applicable when walking in the spirit or in the spiritual understanding of what marriage is.

One can as does get involved in spiritual adultery, that is walking with a carnal mind and “hopping” over to the mind of Christ - as Paul states “starting off in the spirit and ending up in the flesh”. I believe this is necessary part of our becoming 1 in the spirit.

David pleads with God Not to take his Holy Spirit from him, I believe when we walk according to the flesh we are committing adultery against Christ.

But, fear not, he always brings us back.

Ian

[Kat]

This is my understanding.

As I have said in many posts before The tree of Life has 2 names, Good And Evil

First up to lay a foundation ...the biggest miracle which happened to me thru Rays writings, taught me ...To hear and understand the word Carnally is BAD (our own interpretation /understanding is DEATH)many of us walk in this state.

The good part of tree in the garden is Spirit and Life the Evil part of the tree is Death or carnality.

Ian, there were 2 trees represented in the garden.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The "Tree of Life" represents Christ and the Holy Spirit and there is absolutely no evil in that what so ever.

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represents our partaking of this physical/carnal life, the good and the evil of it.

so if Jesus is becoming my all, he is in me and I am in him (we become one). Physically the 2 become 1 flesh; spiritually I and Christ become 1 in spirit.

The elect have not physical or spiritual join and become one with Christ yet, not until the first resurrection. Yes there is the begettal/earnest/promise now with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but this is not born/joined/one with Christ now in this life, that is yet to come.

John 3:3  Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born (begotten CLV) again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
v. 7  Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
v. 8  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

1Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1Cor 13:12  for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;

Here is a couple places where Ray spoke about this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----------

You got to be careful, when Christ said, “except you be born again” we are not born again. But we are begotten anew, from on high. Some of these words are left out of the KJ. It should be “we are begotten anew, from on high.” You are begotten once in the flesh from our parents. Now we are begotten anew, a new begettal from on high. When we are born into the kingdom of God, then we are made where our flesh and blood is turned into spiritual bodies. We will be like God, brother of Christ, like God. So which of the of the sons did He ever say that? Well He said that to His Son, but He never said it to the angels. 

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ------------------------

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lurquer]

Hi Kat,

I appreciate what you said regarding Ray's study, "that is he is only speaking of the 'definition' of what constitutes a 'marriage' and not what is involved in the actual state of being married."

I understood that.  He wasn't giving advice on how to be happily married, or an exposition of Paul's commands to husbands and wives on how they should treat each other.. He was only speaking of the definition of marriage.. that is, who can rightly claim to be married. Regardless of what they've done (or not done) to each other in the married state.  In other words, the relationship is irrelevant. 

But I'm not talking about that either.  If I claim to be married (per Ray's understanding), I must produce evidence of a vow.  What was the vow, and where is it now?

These questions naturally lead to other questions (see my first post).  I think they need to be discussed, as they are important issues that can easily lead believers (especially young ones) to make lifelong errors if they are incorrectly understood.  In fact, this subject naturally dovetails into the next, which is the nature of sexual sin, and why it is fundamentally different than any other sin.  Very few have a good handle on why that is so (myself included), but it is intriguing.

So who has some answers for me!

[Dave in Tenn]

Neo, I think Kat accurately answered the question you raised in the first post--assuming I got what the question was. 

As to the rest, Paul said this to those "still carnal" Corinthians which goes into 'detail' above and beyond the simple commandment for these yet immature believers:

1Co 6:13-20  Food is for the belly; and the belly is for food; but God will bring them both to naught. But the body is not for whoredom, but for our Lord; and our Lord for the body.  And God hath raised up our Lord; and he will raise us up, by his power.

Know ye not, that your bodies are the members of the Messiah? Shall one take a member of the Messiah, and make it the member of a harlot? Far be it.  Or know ye not, that whoever joineth himself to a harlot, is one body [with her]? For it is said, They twain shall be one body.  But he that joineth himself to our Lord, is with him one spirit.

Flee whoredom. For every [other] sin which a man committeth, is external to his body; but he that committeth whoredom, sinneth against his own body.  Or know ye not, that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who abideth in you, whom ye have received from God? And ye are not your own.  For ye are bought with a price. Therefore, glorify ye God, with your body, and with your spirit, which are God's.

I can add this, I think, with some confidence.  Unlawful "fornication" may also require the participation of another who ALSO is sinning against his/her own body.  That's NOT the law of Love.

Look at what Paul says here.  Read ALL the words.  This isn't 'code' for 'whoredom is OK'.

--------

You said, "I must produce evidence of a vow.  What was the vow, and where is it now?" 

I reckon if I were married, I'd know already what vow I had taken.

[lilitalienboi16]

I want to add to what Dave said. Instead of trying to regurgitate what was said to me, I will share a message from a dear brother that I think is relevant here:

I quote:

"I also agree with JFK that it's good to remember that some of the circumstances of the Corinthian church may not apply to us. Paul wrote of a "present distress" (1 Cor. 7:26) which led him to believe it was better to not marry. But he also conceded he had "no commandment from the Lord" concerning the subject (7:25). The same Paul who advised the Corinthians not to marry also condemned those who "forbid to marry" (1 Tim. 4:3). This was written several years after 1 Corinthians. Maybe circumstances had changed (this letter was written to Timothy, not the Corinthian church), or maybe Paul changed his mind about the matter. Possibly in 1 Corinthians Paul thought Christ's return was imminent, but later on he realized it wasn't. Who knows?"

Here are those actual verses as mentioned above:

1 Cor 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
1 Cor 7:26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

Then later to Timothy he writes:
 
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Hope this helps.

God bless,
Alex

[Ian 155]

Kat

Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

this is A tree but represents 2 things i believe carnal and spiritual the Lust,lust and the pride is carnal or interpreted by our senses the Good Is the interpretation by the spirit and so is the war today carnal vs spiritual (this is what I am seeing ) I may not be fully enlightened on this yet

The tree of life is representative of Christ I believe  I was referring to the tree in the midst

Paul was in Heaven.... full stop,

Marriage is spiritual as per Paul's writings on the "mystery"

do you know who are elect and who are not ?if so how

here is some of my language

As I am so are you...

You are a new creation the OLD has passed

As new born babes desire solid food ...dump the milk

When something is new what does that mean

Begotten a new, Resurrected, reborn,born again are one and the same... I believe

Did Paul walk in heaven ?  because FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT.

yet he was living when he told us of a story 14 years earlier .

I am pointing out that one does not have to physically die to be resurrected and to walk in that power

I believe The Marriage is between Us and Christ in my mind that is the end of the story any other interpretation is carnal and does not profit anyone

Would you want to deny these young ones of their place seated with him above why would you prevent them believing that resurrection is for now, change is available now,A New creation a Royal priesthood... yea in the twinkling of an eye.

You are above not beneath,the head not the tail

 NOW is the time ,now is the hour is not complicated?

Dont you want to know Him and the POWER of his resurrection?

Do you not see that to die to Lust of Flesh and lust of eye and Pride of life is for now?

Have you been scorned,mocked ,slapped,spat on?have you screamed why OH GOD have you forsaken me?have you been betrayed?do you have a broken heart?is your heart contrite?are you numb that you cover your mouth as did Job and don't know it all ?

then  my word says If you have suffered with him You will reign with him,where does it say oh there's a catch... not now ,in some future non existent time where I cannot find the scripture.Who determines what the word "Will"' timeframe is ?

These are questions out of frustration ...either you walk in the spirit or I do

This is what you teach....
The elect have not physical or spiritual join and become one with Christ yet, not until the first resurrection. Yes there is the begettal/earnest/promise now with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but this is not born/joined/one with Christ now in this life, that is yet to come.

comment: not physically or spiritually Joined .... is he not the vine ? are we not the branches ? can we be cut off ?

2nd part

 provide scripture and verse on the phrase "not born joined now in this life it is yet to come" 1 john 4 v17 disputes this,so do a few more

the below Scriptures you posted to me  do not justify your teaching nor do they in anyway state yet or future time or anything like that. however let me say this may be because I am not as enlightened as you

John 3:3  Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born (begotten CLV) again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 

Well was Paul born again ??

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Did Paul Go to the 3rd heaven ?
v. 7  Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
v. 8  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

This does certainly not indicate we are wind ? what about... the spirit moves us(just like wind moves us) we know not why, or where it will take us ? not even Christ went where he wished, he went where God sent him.

1Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again[/u] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, read this again and again
v. 4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, where is your heaven?
v. 5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Any Idea when this last time Is

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. once again we know not how we will turn out no time given but neither is time given to when christ shows up in us/to us,can we be like him now ?

1Cor 13:12  for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known; Do you know when the THEN is ?

Ian

[Dave in Tenn]

Back at Alex.  "Is is good for a man not to marry" EXCEPT...

Except when it IS good.  Better to marry than to burn.  Better to remain in whatever state (married or unmarried) you were in when you were called.  Bad is bad.  Worse is worse.  Good is good.  Better is better.


---------

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ian, you are out of your league and out of line.

tick tick tick tick.

Here's fair warning...I will remove any post in this thread that departs from the OP.     

[lilitalienboi16]

Back at Alex.  "Is is good for a man not to marry" EXCEPT...

Except when it IS good.  Better to marry than to burn.  Better to remain in whatever state (married or unmarried) you were in when you were called.  Bad is bad.  Worse is worse.  Good is good.  Better is better.


---------

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ian, you are out of your league and out of line.

tick tick tick tick.

Here's fair warning...I will remove any post in this thread that departs from the OP.   

Yes Dave,

I agree, Paul was not expressly forbidding marriage in his writtings to the corinthians. He condemns those who do forbid it though. So ye, there is harmony in his writtings and I see that.

Just thought I'd add that there is wisdom in acknowledging Paul wrote of a "PRESENT distress" that was very specific to the corinthians though what he wrote was preserved for our admonishment too so of course we should read closely and understand.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

If being "married", that is, the biblical definition of marriage, results solely from a ceremony, which is itself only the means for the stated end of "exchanging vows", taking an "oath", or speaking a "covenant or contract", then what is the vow?  What exactly is being "vowed"?  What does the contract need to say to be 'biblically legitimate'? In other words, if the true definition of marriage is a written or verbal formula--the magic words, if you will--shouldn't we know what they are?  Wouldn't that be all-important?  Because, that itself, according to Ray, "is what marriage is."   And IF a contract establishes a marriage, all contracts can be broken by one side not following through...What grounds then does the contract specify will void the contract? You see if the contract theory of marriage is true, these are utterly important matters.  (I am not being sarcastic or facetious).

Michael, well there is this Scripture.

Mal 2:13  And this second thing you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand.
v. 14  But you say, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
v. 15  Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth.

Of course God is serious about the wedding vows we say, this actually forms a spiritual covenants with Him. Legally the vows form a verbal contract that the couple are joined and share property and debt, and all responsibilities of the marriage. God says He witnesses these vows, they are made before Him and it unites the 2 to become 1. The vows form a legal commitment and then sexual intercourse 'consummates' the marriage. In most states a marriage that is not consummated with intercourse can be annulled, if that is desirable. Whereas divorce dissolves a marriage, getting an annulment voids the marriage completely, as if it never happened. Marriage being a signed legal contact, means a couple must go through the court system to divorce.

Jesus reinforces this scarceness of the marriage covenant when asked about divorce by the Pharisees.

Mat 19:4  He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
v. 5  and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
v. 6  So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

When the couple exchanges wedding vows they are making a moral, legal and spiritual commitment to each other. It's a promise to be faithful, reassurance that they will stick it out no matter what, "for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health."

The marriage commitment is so important, that God instituted it at the very beginning with the first recorded history of mankind, Adam and Eve.

Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lurquer]

Kat, I very much appreciate the time and thought you put into your posts.  I do read them carefully.  I somehow feel like many others here do not make the same effort...careful reading is important. 

You do understand what I am asking, I see.  You offered an interesting scripture in Malachi which mentions a "covenant".  But the problem is we do not know what the covenant is.  Let me just say this:  Some marriages begin by covenant indeed, this is what an "espousal" actually is...a "promise"...to be married.  When a man had espoused a woman to be his wife (or more likely covenanted with the father of the woman to take his daughter to wife) he was considered 'as good as married'. We see this played out in the story of Joseph and Mary--in that he is called "her husband" even though they had not yet 'had a ceremony' (or none is recorded), nor had they yet "consummated" the marriage.  BUT, he had a legal right (in Jewish law) to "put her away privately" when he found she was pregnant (it was obviously not his).

Let's stop just a second.. Let's even say they actually had a 'ceremony and the exchange of vows' prior to her becoming pregnant.  Whatever the case, at that point, the scriptures say he was "her husband" (Matt1:19) Ok?

Now, therefore the angel of the Lord had to personally tell Joseph what was going on and to "fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife..." (vs. 20).  She was not his wife yet.  He had not taken her to wife. But how can that be, if they'd already covenanted with each other??  Because the covenant is not the THING...It is the PROMISE of the thing. Once the thing occurs, the covenant is no longer necessary.  It has been fulfilled.  Surely we all understand this concept, as New Testament believers.

This is the covenant Malachi is speaking of.  We ourselves have been given the same covenant by Christ in that we are now espoused to Him.  We are not yet married, but we reckon ourselves as though we are (Paul speaks much on this as you know). The Marriage has not been consummated.

So again, there may be a vow, but we have just seen that the vow is not the thing.  This, I know, is contrary to what Ray said. He said 'it was the thing itself'.

But do all marriages begin with a vow? If a marriage is a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh" (you quote Genesis 2:24 to verify this) then those who have become one flesh are married.  Have I made a logic error here? I hope not.

Dave, I appreciate what you wrote, and your warning was helpful. You posted in part, this quote from 1Cor 6: 
"Know ye not, that your bodies are the members of the Messiah? Shall one take a member of the Messiah, and make it the member of a harlot? Far be it.  Or know ye not, that whoever joineth himself to a harlot, is one body [with her]? For it is said, They twain shall be one body."

This is very interesting.  We just defined marriage as a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh"  (we got this from Genesis).  Why was Paul warning those to flee from fornication? Because "the twain shall be one". You have married yourself to a harlot. Where is the vow in that marriage?  What oath was taken between the two?  I'd reckon none, except a promise to pay a certain sum. (Some harlots give it away for free though!).  And who were the witnesses to that transaction?  I'd venture none. Yet they became married, according to Paul.

Yet there was a Witness.  There is always a witness to every marriage, legitimate or not. The same Who witnessed the union of Adam and Eve.

None of that was to say which marriages are "legal" or not; I'm not speaking of that...the "vows and legal commitments" that you mentioned, Kat, are a state conception, and it is irrelevant to God.  That is why a "legal marriage" between two men is NOT a marriage to God.  Man's laws are irrelevant; God invented marriage and His definition will always trump man's.

Finally, you said,

"The vows form a legal commitment and it is sexual intercourse that 'consummates' the marriage. In most states a marriage that is not consummated with intercourse can be annulled. Whereas divorce dissolves a marriage, getting an annulment voids the marriage completely, as if it never happened."

Well, is that what Ray teaches?  Is not the vow, the legal commitment, the thing itself? But if it is, then how does a "legal annulment" for an "unconsummated marriage" undo the vow?  It can't; that's called 'having your cake and eating it too'.

Unless...the vow was to consummate the marriage.  Therefore, sex has everything to do with marriage.

I hope you can see how badly woven this whole yarn is that the CHURCH has foisted on us via the STATE.  Ray once said something along the lines of "the Church has gotten nothing right, not one thing..." Well they got this wrong too. But it seems somehow Ray got tangled up in it.

Hopefully we can get into Octoberose's excellent observations soon. Thanks for paying attention to all the words!


 

[Kat]

Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

this is A tree but represents 2 things i believe carnal and spiritual the Lust,lust and the pride is carnal or interpreted by our senses the Good Is the interpretation by the spirit and so is the war today carnal vs spiritual (this is what I am seeing ) I may not be fully enlightened on this yet

The tree of life is representative of Christ I believe I was referring to the tree in the midst

Eve partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a parable that represents this life, everybody that lives is given this spirit/breath of life, the "good and evil." That is just living this life, it's not all bad, there is some good, but there is always evil that comes with it.

There is no spiritual war/struggle going on with the vast majority of mankind right now. The Holy Spirit is only given to a very few that God has chosen and draws to Christ and only these few are struggling to die to self/carnality, putting on the new man.

John 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

All those Scripture that speaks of the "war of carnal vs spiritual" is speaking to believers that have been given of that Holy Spirit now. But that only began to be given at Pentecost after Jesus Christ was sacrificed and became the Redeemer.

John 7:37  On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38  Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
v. 39  Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
John 16:13  However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Acts 1:8  But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

So as you can see the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not give the Holy Spirit, that can only come from Christ Jesus, the Tree of life.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dennis Vogel]

The "vow" is the oath, pledge, promise, bond, covenant, commitment, avowal, profession, affirmation, attestation, assurance, guarantee and your word to uphold the marriage contract. (Yes I looked these up).

You can be legally married and never have sex. Sex does not make a marriage legal. The vow to God makes it legal to have sex. It's a contract.

Some people cannot have sex for physical reasons but are legally married just the same.

So what you are saying is if there is never any sex the marriage is void and either person can walk out even after 20 years of living under a contract. No strings attached. No obligations. No nothing. Just leave and let the other person fend for themselves because there was never any sex.

the vow was to consummate the marriage

Show me a verse that says this. Not conjecture, but a verse.

[lilitalienboi16]

In case anyone is being confused by the idea that Ian put forth that there is only one tree in the garden, let me put an end to that confusion with this:

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Two tree's here. If that isn't enough. After Adam ate the apple

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

God decides to prevent them from ALSO eating from the tree of life:

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So God banishes them from the garden.

Now listen, if these two tree's are the same tree then when adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would have also eaten of the tree of life. Yet after he eats of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God can still prevent him from eating from the tree of life. That can only be possible if they are two different trees! Gen 3:22 doesn't read "Les now he put forth his hand and take also of the fruit of life." No, this wasn't one tree with two different fruits on it. Fruits of knowledge of good and evil and fruits of life, no. This is two different trees, each bearing fruit after their own kind.

The second point I will make to end this is that the tree of life gives Aionion life. It says it right there in Gen 3:22. Humanity does not possess Aionion life, that only comes through Christ. Only those that overcome are given Aionion life to reign with Christ. That is not ALL of humanity.

Joh_20:31 Yet these are written that you should be believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, believing, you may have life eonian in His name

Rom_6:23 For the wages of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.