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Author Topic: The Marriage Vow  (Read 41205 times)

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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2015, 03:27:24 PM »

Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

this is A tree but represents 2 things i believe carnal and spiritual the Lust,lust and the pride is carnal or interpreted by our senses the Good Is the interpretation by the spirit and so is the war today carnal vs spiritual (this is what I am seeing ) I may not be fully enlightened on this yet

The tree of life is representative of Christ I believe I was referring to the tree in the midst

Eve partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a parable that represents this life, everybody that lives is given this spirit/breath of life, the "good and evil." That is just living this life, it's not all bad, there is some good, but there is always evil that comes with it.
 
I believe this is a parable however one needs to use /mention the persons named in order to explain it I mean I dont believe this is a literal tree

There is no spiritual war/struggle going on with the vast majority of mankind right now. The Holy Spirit is only given to a very few that God has chosen and draws to Christ and only these few are struggling to die to self/carnality, putting on the new man.

Well Kat I do believe there is constant war in our minds or in the area of understanding ...this war is about the truth or the lie  I believe it is the Holy Spirit who enables us in the discernment process I mean even kids get so oppressed so I dont know really in terms of what you are say re majority, I really don't know this stuff I mean Jesus rebuked the disciple for questioning the "judas"outcome

John 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. This is true, all will though

All those Scripture that speaks of the "war of carnal vs spiritual" is speaking to believers that have been given of that Holy Spirit now. But that only began to be given at Pentecost after Jesus Christ was sacrificed and became the Redeemer. Kat do you /could one say pentecost is not a particular day I mean my pentecost could be different from yours ?

John 7:37  On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38  Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
v. 39  Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
John 16:13  However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Acts 1:8  But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

So as you can see the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not give the Holy Spirit, that can only come from Christ Jesus, the Tree of life.
 
Well i venture to suggest it facilitates the process which seems is, 1st partake,then "death",and once we die and are reborn  well it comes into play one must die...  according to sovereign design, If we examine Saul he was struck down to the dust,he was raised Paul, I mean he had to be a pharisee 1st in order to be a son
What I was trying to say is we need the bad to notice good and vice versa Ray would say, hot is needed in order to know cold.

Anyway this is way off the initial post I made re Marriage


mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2015, 04:05:42 PM »


Kat, I very much appreciate the time and thought you put into your posts.  I do read them carefully.  I somehow feel like many others here do not make the same effort...careful reading is important. 

You do understand what I am asking, I see.  You offered an interesting scripture in Malachi which mentions a "covenant".  But the problem is we do not know what the covenant is.  Let me just say this:  Some marriages begin by covenant indeed, this is what an "espousal" actually is...a "promise"...to be married.  When a man had espoused a woman to be his wife (or more likely covenanted with the father of the woman to take his daughter to wife) he was considered 'as good as married'. We see this played out in the story of Joseph and Mary--in that he is called "her husband" even though they had not yet 'had a ceremony' (or none is recorded), nor had they yet "consummated" the marriage.  BUT, he had a legal right (in Jewish law) to "put her away privately" when he found she was pregnant (it was obviously not his).

Let's stop just a second.. Let's even say they actually had a 'ceremony and the exchange of vows' prior to her becoming pregnant.  Whatever the case, at that point, the scriptures say he was "her husband" (Matt1:19) Ok?

Now, therefore the angel of the Lord had to personally tell Joseph what was going on and to "fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife..." (vs. 20).  She was not his wife yet.  He had not taken her to wife. But how can that be, if they'd already covenanted with each other??  Because the covenant is not the THING...It is the PROMISE of the thing. Once the thing occurs, the covenant is no longer necessary.  It has been fulfilled.  Surely we all understand this concept, as New Testament believers.

This is the covenant Malachi is speaking of.  We ourselves have been given the same covenant by Christ in that we are now espoused to Him.  We are not yet married, but we reckon ourselves as though we are (Paul speaks much on this as you know). The Marriage has not been consummated.

So again, there may be a vow, but we have just seen that the vow is not the thing.  This, I know, is contrary to what Ray said. He said 'it was the thing itself'.

But do all marriages begin with a vow? If a marriage is a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh" (you quote Genesis 2:24 to verify this) then those who have become one flesh are married.  Have I made a logic error here? I hope not.

Dave, I appreciate what you wrote, and your warning was helpful. You posted in part, this quote from 1Cor 6: 
"Know ye not, that your bodies are the members of the Messiah? Shall one take a member of the Messiah, and make it the member of a harlot? Far be it.  Or know ye not, that whoever joineth himself to a harlot, is one body [with her]? For it is said, They twain shall be one body."

This is very interesting.  We just defined marriage as a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh"  (we got this from Genesis).  Why was Paul warning those to flee from fornication? Because "the twain shall be one". You have married yourself to a harlot. Where is the vow in that marriage?  What oath was taken between the two?  I'd reckon none, except a promise to pay a certain sum. (Some harlots give it away for free though!).  And who were the witnesses to that transaction?  I'd venture none. Yet they became married, according to Paul.

Yet there was a Witness.  There is always a witness to every marriage, legitimate or not. The same Who witnessed the union of Adam and Eve.

None of that was to say which marriages are "legal" or not; I'm not speaking of that...the "vows and legal commitments" that you mentioned, Kat, are a state conception, and it is irrelevant to God.  That is why a "legal marriage" between two men is NOT a marriage to God.  Man's laws are irrelevant; God invented marriage and His definition will always trump man's.

Finally, you said,

"The vows form a legal commitment and it is sexual intercourse that 'consummates' the marriage. In most states a marriage that is not consummated with intercourse can be annulled. Whereas divorce dissolves a marriage, getting an annulment voids the marriage completely, as if it never happened."

Well, is that what Ray teaches?  Is not the vow, the legal commitment, the thing itself? But if it is, then how does a "legal annulment" for an "unconsummated marriage" undo the vow?  It can't; that's called 'having your cake and eating it too'.

Unless...the vow was to consummate the marriage.  Therefore, sex has everything to do with marriage.

I hope you can see how badly woven this whole yarn is that the CHURCH has foisted on us via the STATE.  Ray once said something along the lines of "the Church has gotten nothing right, not one thing..." Well they got this wrong too. But it seems somehow Ray got tangled up in it.

Hopefully we can get into Octoberose's excellent observations soon. Thanks for paying attention to all the words!

Quote
But do all marriages begin with a vow? If a marriage is a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh" (you quote Genesis 2:24 to verify this) then those who have become one flesh are married.  Have I made a logic error here? I hope not.

In this comment I do have a different view on this union between Adam and Eve. There is only a very brief description of what happened there, but did they just have sex creating a marriage? I don't think so, look at this verse.

Gen 2:22  Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

God brought her to Adam, I believe this not only could have, but did represented the wedding and also the vows, as even to this day the Father of the bride 'gives' the bride to the man. It was also the verse that first says, "a man shall leave his father and mother," obviously a woman has to do the same thing. But that is stated first because that comes first, that in ancient time that (the procession of the man and the woman leaving their home) it was a much greater part of the wedding ceremony. So after that happens then "they shall become one flesh."

Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Quote
Why was Paul warning those to flee from fornication? Because "the twain shall be one". You have married yourself to a harlot. Where is the vow in that marriage?  What oath was taken between the two?  I'd reckon none, except a promise to pay a certain sum. (Some harlots give it away for free though!).  And who were the witnesses to that transaction?  I'd venture none. Yet they became married, according to Paul.

Eph 5:31  "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

What Paul does say also is that "a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife," as I already said this comes first, and I believe this represents the wedding.

Now Paul did say that somebody that joins - has sex with a prostitute becomes one body with her, and this is true that is exactly what happens during sex.

1Co 6:16  Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."

But Paul is not saying they are married, that is a far stretch assume to make, maybe in some cultures, but not what God instituted or what Paul is saying... just saying, that cannot be accurate as I see it.

The ceremony and the vows is what God instituted to come first, it is a commitment to each other before God and brings a blessing from God, then the marriage begins, sex included.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 04:16:48 PM »

In case anyone is being confused by the idea that Ian put forth that there is only one tree in the garden, let me put an end to that confusion with this:

Sunshine..... I did not say there is only one tree  I said humankind did "Eve" referred to one tree when speaking with the "serpent"

quote Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 3:2 And saying is the woman to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we are eating,
Gen 3:3 yet from the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, the Elohim says, `Not eat of it shall you, and not touch it shall you, lest you be dying..

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Kat

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 04:20:47 PM »

Kat do you /could one say pentecost is not a particular day I mean my pentecost could be different from yours ?

John 7:37  On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38  Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
v. 39  Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Ian, I gave you this outright statement of Scripture from Christ Jesus and you ignored it and that's how you are going to explain that the Holy Spirit wasn't only given after His resurrection... by saying Pentecost is not on a particular day? What?

You can believe whatever you so desire, but your continuing in bringing these obscured ideas here is a big problem...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 05:38:03 PM by Kat »
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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2015, 05:00:42 PM »


Kat do you /could one say pentecost is not a particular day I mean my pentecost could be different from yours ?

John 7:37  On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38  Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
v. 39  Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Ian, I gave you this outright statement of Scripture from Christ Jesus and you ignored it and that's how you are going to explain that the Holy Spirit was only given after His resurrection... by saying Pentecost is not on a particular day? What?  HUH

You can believe whatever you so desire, but your continuing in bringing these obscured ideas here is a big problem...


mercy, peace and love
Kat


Once again.... It was a question Do YOU...COULD IT BE ???

Your frustration may be due to your not providing/being able to provide relevant scripture... Is the last day of the feast a literal day? what does it symbolise ?what does Great day /greatest day, symbolise ? 

You say you gave me an outright statement - pertaining to what ?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2015, 05:19:48 PM »

In case anyone is being confused by the idea that Ian put forth that there is only one tree in the garden, let me put an end to that confusion with this:

Sunshine..... I did not say there is only one tree  I said humankind did "Eve" referred to one tree when speaking with the "serpent"

quote Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 3:2 And saying is the woman to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we are eating,
Gen 3:3 yet from the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, the Elohim says, `Not eat of it shall you, and not touch it shall you, lest you be dying..



Here Ian, Let's add some of your context to this discussion, I quote you from the previous page.

As I have said in many posts before The tree of Life has 2 names, Good And Evil


The above is clearly false. The tree of life does not have the name "The tree of good and evil." The tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL is ANOTHER tree.

Then you proceed to tell Kat:

The good part of tree in the garden is Spirit and Life the Evil part of the tree is Death or carnality.

No, the tree of LIFE does not bring DEATH. The tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL brings forth fruit that is death. "In the day you eat of it, dying (They were already dying) you SHALL SURELY DIE. (Gen 2:17)"

Kat responds:

Ian, there were 2 trees represented in the garden.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The "Tree of Life" represents Christ and the Holy Spirit and there is absolutely no evil in that what so ever.

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represents our partaking of this physical/carnal life, the good and the evil of it.


Your responce to her telling you that these two tree's are not one tree was:

Kat

Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

this is A tree but represents 2 things i believe carnal and spiritual the Lust,lust and the pride is carnal or interpreted by our senses the Good Is the interpretation by the spirit and so is the war today carnal vs spiritual (this is what I am seeing ) I may not be fully enlightened on this yet



So,

You start off saying there is one tree by two names. Kat responds by telling you there are actually two trees, to which you respond: "Eve speaks of one tree."

Nice try Ian, but i'm not going to let you out of this one.

In Christ,
Alex
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 05:47:55 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2015, 06:17:04 PM »

Your frustration may be due to your not providing/being able to provide relevant scripture... Is the last day of the feast a literal day? what does it symbolise ?what does Great day /greatest day, symbolise ? 

You say you gave me an outright statement - pertaining to what ?

John 7:39  Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

This statement from Jesus said that the Holy Spirit had not come yet, not before He is resurrected and glorified. And I brought that to your attention because of these comment you made below.

As I am so are you...

You are a new creation the OLD has passed

As new born babes desire solid food ...dump the milk

When something is new what does that mean

Begotten a new, Resurrected, reborn,born again are one and the same... I believe

Did Paul walk in heaven ?  because FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT.

yet he was living when he told us of a story 14 years earlier .

I am pointing out that one does not have to physically die to be resurrected and to walk in that power

This is where I see your error stems, from this comment.

Quote
Begotten a new, Resurrected, reborn,born again are one and the same...

All these words do NOT mean the same thing and I have shown you with many Scripture. We are not yet born/resurrected into the kingdom... begotten yes, but not yet born into the kingdom with glorified spiritual bodies. That is what John is talking about when he says "what we will be has not yet appeared."

1John 3:2  Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.

The Apostle John was certainly begotten anew, he certainly had been given the earnest/promise/guarantee of the Spirit, as Paul says.

2Co 1:22  and who has also put His seal on us and given us His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

John was saying "we are God's children NOW," and he is only talking to the "beloved," those few believers there, not to the world. But that comment must be taken with the rest of the verse... it is only when Christ "appears" and that will be at His return to rule and reign over the whole world. Then and not before "we shall be like Him," then we will be born into the kingdom, into glory, "like" He is.

I have shown you numerous others Scripture on this, but you resist every attempt where I have tried to show you this...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 09:36:10 PM by Kat »
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lurquer

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2015, 10:52:48 PM »

Ian,

Could you start your own thread, please?  Whatever it is you are talking about has nothing to do with this thread.  Why are you intentionally making this discussion so weird?

Wait.. Did John put you up to this?
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2015, 12:55:50 AM »

It was I who said I'd remove any post that didn't relate to the OP.  But I'll tell you what I'm going to do instead.  I',m just going to let it go wherever "the spirit" wants it to go.  Then we'll see what "spirit" is blowing in it.  I'm pretty sure I already know.

By the way...nobody called Ian 'weird'--only that it was making this discussion weird.  YES...IT IS!  That's why I'd like it to stop and focus on how it began.  Don't tell me "the spirit" is not operating in that desire! 

But I'll cave in.  Do what you want with it.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Mike Gagne

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2015, 02:59:59 AM »

Your right Dave I was wrong and removed my last post. Ian I wasn't laughing at you but  at the weird remark, either way I was wrong...Ephesians 4:29 (KJV)
[29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers....Colossians 3:8 (KJV)
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth....1 Corinthians 15:33 (KJV)
[33] Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2015, 05:06:33 AM »

In case anyone is being confused by the idea that Ian put forth that there is only one tree in the garden, let me put an end to that confusion with this:

Sunshine..... I did not say there is only one tree  I said humankind did "Eve" referred to one tree when speaking with the "serpent"

quote Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 3:2 And saying is the woman to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we are eating,
Gen 3:3 yet from the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, the Elohim says, `Not eat of it shall you, and not touch it shall you, lest you be dying..



Here Ian, Let's add some of your context to this discussion, I quote you from the previous page.

As I have said in many posts before The tree of Life has 2 names, Good And Evil


The above is clearly false. The tree of life does not have the name "The tree of good and evil." The tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL is ANOTHER tree.

Then you proceed to tell Kat:

The good part of tree in the garden is Spirit and Life the Evil part of the tree is Death or carnality.

No, the tree of LIFE does not bring DEATH. The tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL brings forth fruit that is death. "In the day you eat of it, dying (They were already dying) you SHALL SURELY DIE. (Gen 2:17)"

Kat responds:

Ian, there were 2 trees represented in the garden.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The "Tree of Life" represents Christ and the Holy Spirit and there is absolutely no evil in that what so ever.

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represents our partaking of this physical/carnal life, the good and the evil of it.


Your responce to her telling you that these two tree's are not one tree was:

Kat

Eve speaks of one tree Singular....

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

this is A tree but represents 2 things i believe carnal and spiritual the Lust,lust and the pride is carnal or interpreted by our senses the Good Is the interpretation by the spirit and so is the war today carnal vs spiritual (this is what I am seeing ) I may not be fully enlightened on this yet



So,

You start off saying there is one tree by two names. Kat responds by telling you there are actually two trees, to which you respond: "Eve speaks of one tree."

Nice try Ian, but i'm not going to let you out of this one.

In Christ,
Alex


Eve does speak of/refer too one  tree,  ....Actually there were lots of trees in the garden however in the midst were 2 spoken of .... so Life or death your "choice " Chief Inspector  Clouseau
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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2015, 05:10:23 AM »

Ian,

Could you start your own thread, please?  Whatever it is you are talking about has nothing to do with this thread.  Why are you intentionally making this discussion so weird?

Wait.. Did John put you up to this?

No, I started my thoughts on marriage  from Adam and Eve (the beginning) this was the intention, as it turned out this was  clearly wrong .....Apologies
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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2015, 05:12:09 AM »

Your right Dave I was wrong and removed my last post. Ian I wasn't laughing at you but  at the weird remark, either way I was wrong...Ephesians 4:29 (KJV)
[29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers....Colossians 3:8 (KJV)
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth....1 Corinthians 15:33 (KJV)
[33] Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.


I Did not see it
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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2015, 05:14:28 AM »

Your frustration may be due to your not providing/being able to provide relevant scripture... Is the last day of the feast a literal day? what does it symbolise ?what does Great day /greatest day, symbolise ? 

You say you gave me an outright statement - pertaining to what ?

John 7:39  Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Ok Kat I have shown you many scriptures too --- with no answer ,I will look at this and answer on a new topic

This statement from Jesus said that the Holy Spirit had not come yet, not before He is resurrected and glorified. And I brought that to your attention because of these comment you made below.

As I am so are you...

You are a new creation the OLD has passed

As new born babes desire solid food ...dump the milk

When something is new what does that mean

Begotten a new, Resurrected, reborn,born again are one and the same... I believe

Did Paul walk in heaven ?  because FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT.

yet he was living when he told us of a story 14 years earlier .

I am pointing out that one does not have to physically die to be resurrected and to walk in that power

This is where I see your error stems, from this comment.

Quote
Begotten a new, Resurrected, reborn,born again are one and the same...

All these words do NOT mean the same thing and I have shown you with many Scripture. We are not yet born/resurrected into the kingdom... begotten yes, but not yet born into the kingdom with glorified spiritual bodies. That is what John is talking about when he says "what we will be has not yet appeared."

1John 3:2  Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.

The Apostle John was certainly begotten anew, he certainly had been given the earnest/promise/guarantee of the Spirit, as Paul says.

2Co 1:22  and who has also put His seal on us and given us His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

John was saying "we are God's children NOW," and he is only talking to the "beloved," those few believers there, not to the world. But that comment must be taken with the rest of the verse... it is only when Christ "appears" and that will be at His return to rule and reign over the whole world. Then and not before "we shall be like Him," then we will be born into the kingdom, into glory, "like" He is.

I have shown you numerous others Scripture on this, but you resist every attempt where I have tried to show you this...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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HoneyLamb56

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2015, 12:06:49 PM »

When I got married years ago, we repeated "vows" from what the minister of our church gave us i.e. to honour, obey, .....till death do us part..

Now people getting married write their own "vows";  so as Neo says:  "what are the vows?"  as anyone can make vows as to what they think or want in a marriage.  Is it just a promise or an oath to become one flesh? and that's it?  Do we need to have vows?  Can we not just have God's minister say I now pronounce you one flesh in God's sight?  Is that the vow/covenant?

Diane
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lurquer

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2015, 01:10:47 PM »

Kat,

Per your last post to me, you seem to be hung up on the idea that sex=marriage because it means those who have fornicated with a harlot are married to them. And, also, by extension, that any male/female sexual relationship is therefore marriage in God's eyes.  This is a big pill to swallow, I know.  But, "marriage" is just a word.  Once properly defined, you stop worrying about it. (I did).  But then, it does tend to bring up other personal issues for some...Perhaps this is the stumbling stone, and the reason it appears so many here don't want to go there... I get that.

But let us go back to what Ocoberose initally posted:
“I think the thread  is something we should talk about.  Being a typical female myself,  love and marriage go together, however we know Jacob did not love Leah as he loved Rachel and never intended to marry her.  He was tricked into the marriage but still expected to hold up his end of the vow. And how does Genesis say Jacob and Rachel  married? "Jacob went into her" after Laban gave her to him.  However, when sex is impossible, are the couple still not married?”

These are important questions. They are the keys to this riddle.

Let’s just start with the obvious by reciting what actually is recorded:

The contract:

Gen29:18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.


Both parties agree:

19 And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.

Contract fulfilled:

20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.


Here is where Ray would say the “vows” occurred.  I contend that the “vow” or oath, or contract or covenant occurred 7 years prior when Jacob “vowed” to wed Rachel…that was the espousal.  That was the PROMISE.  Not the THING.  Clearly, the marriage had not yet occurred. On that, we can all agree.  But what of the feast?  This was a traditional wedding feast, I am certain, but what it entailed, we cannot know.  But let us assume there was some re-statement of the vows, or perhaps, as Kat postulates, “When the couple exchanges wedding vows they are making a moral, legal and spiritual commitment to each other. It's a promise to be faithful, reassurance that they will stick it out no matter what, "for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health." 
And again: The ceremony and the vows is what God instituted to come first, it is a commitment to each other before God and brings a blessing from God, then the marriage begins, sex included.”

And lets not forget what Dennis posits:

“You can be legally married and never have sex. Sex does not make a marriage legal. The vow to God makes it legal to have sex. It's a contract.”

Well, here we have an insurmountable problem with this theory:



23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.
25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?


If the feast/ceremony/vows/oaths had already occurred with Rachel the night before, then Jacob was already married to Rachel.  ALL OBLIGATIONS HAD BEEN MET.

How is it, then, that it turns out he had “legally married” Leah? (And he certainly did, as the text says Leah was his “wife”, during the next 7 years, for which he labored again to take his rightful wife, Rachel.)  Jacob had said no vows, and made no contracts with Leah. But one physical act, done ignorantly by him—he was deceived!—voided the agreement with Rachel, nullified the “marriage” and instead made Leah his wife.

There it is, right there in scripture.  Looks like Dennis is completely wrong, in that sex does make a marriage legal.  Because that unity, that bond is what a marriage is. 

We have a companion scripture immediately following these passages; in the next chapter we see that Rachel was barren, and she requests of Jacob to “go in unto her handmaid, and bare children”…

Gen 30:4 And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her.

We see again the method in which Jacob is given, and takes a wife.  Here, no vows, no ceremony.  Just clear scripture on what occurs naturally (which was obvious to most all peoples throughout ancient times, needing no further explanation—until we get to our modern church/state society where confusion now abounds).

For this precedent was set well before with Jacob’s father, Isaac, when he took to wife, Rebekah.  It would behoove anyone reading, to go back now and re-familiarize yourself with this story in Genesis 24.

Long story short, Rebekah is sought out from another country by Abraham’s servant, she is “given” to him as a wife for Issac (which she explicitly agrees to), she then journeys  back with the servant; she arrives, dismounts the camel, beholds Isaac in a field,

“And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. 67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife;..” (Gen 24:66,67)


Finally, Dennis said, “Some people cannot have sex for physical reasons but are legally married just the same.”

Octoberose asked the same question in her initial post: “However, when sex is impossible, are the couple still not married?”

To that, as is plainly shown above, if they had a sexual union, then they are already married (whether they ever do again or not).  If they never did, they were never married in the first place.  Later I’ll explain how obvious this is (and how important!).



Quote
the vow was to consummate the marriage

Show me a verse that says this. Not conjecture, but a verse.


Well, Dennis, with all due respect, show me a verse that says it doesn't. 
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2015, 01:45:22 PM »

Quote
Quote
the vow was to consummate the marriage

Show me a verse that says this. Not conjecture, but a verse.


Well, Dennis, with all due respect, show me a verse that says it doesn't.

You cannot prove a negative: "appeals to ignorance ... sometimes used to shift the burden of proof"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It's like saying "prove to me in the bible that little green men do not live on the moon." Nonsense.

If your position is true then there must be at least two verses saying sex consummated a marriage and made it legal and binding.
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Kat

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2015, 01:53:44 PM »

Kat,
Per your last post to me, you seem to be hung up on the idea that sex=marriage because it means those who have fornicated with a harlot are married to them. And, also, by extension, that any male/female sexual relationship is therefore marriage in God's eyes.  This is a big pill to swallow, I know.  But, "marriage" is just a word.  Once properly defined, you stop worrying about it. (I did).  But then, it does tend to bring up other personal issues for some...Perhaps this is the stumbling stone, and the reason it appears so many here don't want to go there... I get that.

 "sex=marriage" What? I certainly did Not intend to imply that, but the opposite, first marriage then sex. Anyway this is complicated and I do know what else to say.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2015, 04:39:01 PM »

I'm not married.  I have neither plans nor wish to get married.  So maybe I'm not one who needs to "know" anything.  But I am perplexed why this issue is so "important" and why young people need to understand it.  So...could you just cut to the chase already and say why you think it is?  Otherwise, it's just 'strife over words'. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

wat

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2015, 04:59:12 PM »

The problem with Jacob and Leah is that very few details are given. Octoberose says "And how does Genesis say Jacob and Rachel  married? "Jacob went into her" after Laban gave her to him." I don't think Genesis is saying that's how Jacob married her, that happens after Jacob marries her.

Gen 29:21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.

Jacob calls Rachel his wife before he has sex with her. Laban has to give her to Jacob, not unlike God giving Eve to Adam. Adam and Eve had a marriage ceremony, however small and "informal" it was. The sex happens after the marriage ceremony. Traditionally, couples have sex on their wedding night. This is after they're married, not to become married.

So Laban gathers all the men together and makes a feast. Presumably this is a wedding feast. No details are given here. Neo, you state

If the feast/ceremony/vows/oaths had already occurred with Rachel the night before, then Jacob was already married to Rachel.  ALL OBLIGATIONS HAD BEEN MET.

Nowhere does it say these things occurred with Rachel. We're given no details. Did Laban give a speech about how Jacob is marrying Rachel? Or was he being vague and only saying how Jacob was marrying his daughter? Maybe Jacob assumed he meant Rachel, since that was what they agreed, but everybody else assumed he meant Leah, since Laban says "It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn." Either way it doesn't say.

Were Leah and Rachel present at the feast? We don't know. In the evening Laban brings Leah to Jacob. Jacob doesn't know it's Leah. Maybe she's covered, or it's dark, or both. Only in the morning does Jacob find out it's Leah. Laban tells Jacob to complete the week of Leah, and then he will give him Rachel. This would be a week of festivities, similar to Samson in Judges 14:12-17.

Gen 29:28  Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife.

Rachel is now his wife and then he has sex with her. Not to make her his wife, she's already his wife because Laban gave her to him.

You mention Bilhah the handmaid and say that no ceremony is mentioned. No ceremonies are mentioned because the focus of these passages is on making babies, the sons of Israel. You bolded the key words yourself.

Gen 30:4 And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her.

Bilhah becomes his wife first, then Jacob has sex with her. A ceremony would be understood, since the word wife is mentioned.

Moving on from Jacob, let's go to the Law of Moses.

Exo 22:16  "If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife.
Exo 22:17  If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.

Here we have a man who sleeps with a woman who isn't his wife and doesn't become his wife until he pays the bride-price for her and her father accepts. If her father doesn't give her to him, she's not his wife, even though they had sex. A similar passage occurs in Deuteronomy.

Deu 22:28  "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
Deu 22:29  then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

This bride-price is mentioned a few times in scripture. Boaz pays for Naomi's possessions and for Ruth.

Rth 4:9  Then Boaz said to the elders and all the people, "You are witnesses this day that I have bought from the hand of Naomi all that belonged to Elimelech and all that belonged to Chilion and to Mahlon.
Rth 4:10  Also Ruth the Moabite, the widow of Mahlon, I have bought to be my wife, to perpetuate the name of the dead in his inheritance, that the name of the dead may not be cut off from among his brothers and from the gate of his native place. You are witnesses this day."
Rth 4:11  Then all the people who were at the gate and the elders said, "We are witnesses. May the LORD make the woman, who is coming into your house, like Rachel and Leah, who together built up the house of Israel. May you act worthily in Ephrathah and be renowned in Bethlehem,
Rth 4:12  and may your house be like the house of Perez, whom Tamar bore to Judah, because of the offspring that the LORD will give you by this young woman."
Rth 4:13  So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife. And he went in to her, and the LORD gave her conception, and she bore a son.

Notice there are witnesses. And that only after Boaz takes Ruth to be his wife does he go in to her.

And the other bride-price mention I found is between Saul and David.

1Sa 18:25  Then Saul said, "Thus shall you say to David, 'The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king's enemies.'" Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.
1Sa 18:26  And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king's son-in-law. Before the time had expired,
1Sa 18:27  David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.

Earlier Neo, you stated

But I'm not talking about that either.  If I claim to be married (per Ray's understanding), I must produce evidence of a vow.

More broadly, you must produce evidence of a ceremony performed in front of witnesses. Nowadays this would be a marriage certificate. In Ray's study, he says "They have found actual marriage contracts, Jewish marriage contracts that go back to the 5th century B.C.  So this idea of, ‘well they didn’t have ceremonies.’ Yes they did. In fact Malachi was written about 500 B.C."

Ray doesn't give a source, but I did a quick google search and sure enough, there are references to ancient marriage contracts. I'm not sure if there's any place in scripture that mentions them, but I did find 3 places where certificates of divorce are mentioned.

Deu 24:1  "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,

Isa 50:1  Thus says the LORD: "Where is your mother's certificate of divorce, with which I sent her away? Or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities you were sold, and for your transgressions your mother was sent away.

Jer 3:8  She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the whore.

If they had certificates (other translations bill, writing, scroll) for divorce, I'm guessing they had them for marriage too.

My post is getting long, so I'll end here.
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