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Author Topic: The Marriage Vow  (Read 41189 times)

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Gina

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2015, 06:35:39 PM »

Well, in closing...

I just wanted to say this since it's on the topic of marriage.

I know that marriages can have their bad spots and lonely spots and happy spots and all of that and I just want to pray for you, whoever you are, who may be going through a rough patch in your own marriage.  I pray that God breathes new life in your home and your lives. 

And if you've gone through a divorce for whatever reason and you might be feeling contrite about it or yourselves, God is with you!

For this is what the high and exalted One says-- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.  Isaiah 57:15

For those of us who are not married - we have a Bridegroom.  We, just like the married believers, also have One we can truly depend on to be there for us through thick and thin.  And we have much to look forward to:

Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?  (Romans 8:32)
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lurquer

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2015, 09:09:07 PM »


Neo, you're view is very complicated. No wonder you keep saying if only everyone would actually read your posts they would understand. I think almost everybody has read your posts and they still don't understand. You speak of two marriages, both called marriage, that are initiated by sexual union. But only consensual sex. I think Occam's Razor can be applied here, the simplest answer is correct.


Ok Loc.. I give.  The correct answer, as you say, is probably the simplist.  Now I just need you to tell me what, exactly, is that simple answer.  I STILL have not received an answer to my original question...I suppose it can only be because no one has a clue.
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lurquer

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2015, 09:12:36 PM »

I thought Adam and Eve were brought together by God spiritually, no vows, no wedding, no limo, and no Pagan stuff; Maybe we should be doing the same.   Ricky

Indeed, Ricky. But we still have the age old problem of hearing ears...  "Who hath believed our report?"
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Joel

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2015, 10:45:57 PM »

I agree Ricky,
Sex alone does not a marriage make.
Jesus pretty much said that in his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well. John 4:16-17
Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

Matthew 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Joel
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2015, 11:46:59 PM »

"Where is the vow?"  The vow is in the heart and in the mouth.   That's an answer.

Faith without works is dead.  For with the heart man believeth and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Let him who has...eh, you know the rest.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Gina

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2015, 12:30:49 AM »

I thought Adam and Eve were brought together by God spiritually, no vows, no wedding, no limo, and no Pagan stuff; Maybe we should be doing the same.   Ricky

Indeed, Ricky. But we still have the age old problem of hearing ears...  "Who hath believed our report?"

Ricky:  It is not true that God brought them together spiritually.  Obviously there was no limo.  Let's be real.  But God did not bring them together spiritually.

The spiritual does not come first, but the physical does, and then comes the spiritual.  1 Cor. 15:46

Gen 2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and [physically] brought her to the man.

Here is the vow from the first Adam:

23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."

24 For this reason a man shall [physically] leave his father and his mother, and be [physically] joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.



As for sex making a marriage, I think not:


2 Samuel 13 Living Bible


1 Prince Absalom, David’s son, had a beautiful sister named Tamar. And Prince Amnon (her half brother) fell desperately in love with her.

2 Amnon became so tormented by his love for her that he became ill. He had no way of talking to her, for the girls and young men were kept strictly apart.

3 But Amnon had a very crafty friend—his cousin Jonadab (the son of David’s brother Shimeah).

4 One day Jonadab said to Amnon, “What’s the trouble? Why should the son of a king look so haggard morning after morning?”

So Amnon told him, “I am in love with Tamar, my half sister.”

5 “Well,” Jonadab said, “I’ll tell you what to do. Go back to bed and pretend you are sick; when your father comes to see you, ask him to let Tamar come and prepare some food for you. Tell him you’ll feel better if she feeds you.”

6 So Amnon did. And when the king came to see him, Amnon asked him for this favor—that his sister Tamar be permitted to come and cook a little something for him to eat.

7 David agreed and sent word to Tamar to go to Amnon’s quarters and prepare some food for him.

8 So she did and went into his bedroom so that he could watch her mix some dough; then she baked some special bread for him.

9 But when she set the serving tray before him, he refused to eat!

“Everyone get out of here,” he told his servants; so they all left the apartment.

10 Then he said to Tamar, “Now bring me the food again here in my bedroom and feed it to me.” So Tamar took it to him.

11 But as she was standing there before him, he grabbed her and demanded, “Come to bed with me, my darling.”

12 “Oh, Amnon,” she cried. “Don’t be foolish! Don’t do this to me! You know what a serious crime it is in Israel.

13 Where could I go in my shame? And you would be called one of the greatest fools in Israel. Please, just speak to the king about it, for he will let you marry me.”

14 But he wouldn’t listen to her; and since he was stronger than she, he forced her.

15 Then suddenly his love turned to hate, and now he hated her more than he had loved her.

“Get out of here!” he snarled at her.

16 “No, no!” she cried. “To reject me now is a greater crime than the other you did to me.

But he wouldn’t listen to her.

17-18 He shouted for his valet and demanded, “Throw this woman out and lock the door behind her.”

So he put her out. She was wearing a long robe with sleeves, as was the custom in those days for virgin daughters of the king.

19 Now she tore the robe and put ashes on her head and with her head in her hands went away crying.

20 Her brother Absalom asked her, “Is it true that Amnon raped you? Don’t be so upset, since it’s all in the family anyway. It’s not anything to worry about!”

So Tamar lived as a desolate woman in her brother Absalom’s quarters.


Tamar wasn't now a woman who'd received no certificate of divorce from her husband.   Tamar was actually willing to be (to be = as in they were not yet) married to Amnon BEFORE and after he forced himself on her, but he wouldn't marry her because he hated her.  So, therefore, there was no marriage simply because they had sex. 

And Absalom had Amnon murdered and the rest, as they say is history.

Case dismissed!

Next....................?!

:-0
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 12:39:59 AM by Gina »
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lurquer

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2015, 12:52:18 AM »

Gina,

Huh? That was a clear case of rape.  She was unwilling to have a sexual union with her brother...  But once the deed was done, it was done.  Her pitiful plea to accept it as a "covenant marriage" was just that...pitiful.  Surely you understand what her options were at that point. What case is closed??

Quote
Here is the vow from the first Adam:

23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."

24 For this reason a man shall [physically] leave his father and his mother, and be [physically] joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

So that's the vow?  Those are the magic words we need to say to "marry" another?  Really--was my wife taken from my body during surgery when I was hermaphroditic, like Adam? Big time reaching now, aren't we? 

Listen, the "marriage covenant", in the words of Ray, 'is a Christian Hoax.' There is no "vow" that makes a couple man and wife.  Keep searching though, if it matters to you.
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Gina

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2015, 01:31:22 AM »

Could have been the vow in the presence of witnesses.  Why not?  We certainly have record of it in writing, don't we. he he

Okay, so you've stated your position succinctly.  If you're satisfied with that and you believe that and you believe that God agrees with your position, you should be very happy.  But you don't sound very happy and sure don't sound very sure.  You sound like you need a lot of convincing.  You sound like you need people to agree with you before you can believe it yourself.  If you believe you have the truth, you certainly don't need OUR blessing.  The only one you need to affirm the truth is God. 

Good luck with that.
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wat

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2015, 01:40:39 AM »

Ok Loc.. I give.  The correct answer, as you say, is probably the simplist.  Now I just need you to tell me what, exactly, is that simple answer.  I STILL have not received an answer to my original question...I suppose it can only be because no one has a clue.
The simplest answer is what Ray pointed out over and over again, that marriage happens through a ceremony, a wedding, not sex. Your original question "what is the vow?" Who cares? The vows can be whatever you want them to be. As long as you have a wedding ceremony.

I thought Joel brought up a good point. How is it that the woman at the well wasn't married?
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Gina

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2015, 02:11:33 AM »

Michael, you have such a double standard.  You say you believe that vows are unnecessary when it comes to marriage, but then you turn around and beg us to answer you just so that you can have visible, written proof that people are in agreement with you.  haha!  You are a funny man, Michael.

Come on, let's stop this nonsense and be glad for what we have.  A vow in marriage and a ceremony isn't some extreme heavy burden that people are under.  You wed your wife, voluntarily!  Nobody held a gun to your head, ha ha -- you WANTED to marry her, remember?  You would have done anything to marry her, remember?  So what's the big deal?

You're bringing this forum down to the dumps over something you say you're unclear on but then you finally let out your position, but still you have double standard. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd be really embarrassed.
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Gina

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2015, 03:54:55 AM »

Neo:
Quote
I DO have such a “certificate of marriage” issued by the state!  I do not know what my vow was; it was spelled out for me by the state to recite.  I did not know what I was agreeing to, I just wanted to marry my beautiful 19 year old wife and I would have signed anything. 

I’ve since seen the error in that as well. 

If this contract with the state gave existence to my marriage, and was the THING that joined us together, then it was not GOD who joined us.  It is either or… I think this very statement is what launched me on my  odyssey of really trying to understand what marriage is!

Really now.

2 Cor 11:

2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.


Here's Paul's written record that he betrothed the Corinthians to Christ.  They didn't betroth themselves to Christ.  You say you didn't know what you were reciting.   That's understandable.  You were only 19.  You were young.  But the same can be said of those who sign contracts when purchasing a car.  Who reads the fine print?  All we know is .... we want to be driving that car. 

Did the Corinthians know what they were getting into?  I don't think so.  They were yet carnal. 


Just because your physical marriage was solidified by the state doesn't make it void in the eyes of God:

Romans 13

3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

4 for it is a minister of God to you for good

...

5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.



When you married your wife you say that the vows were written for you, and therefore God didn't join you, the state did.  I'm sorry, the state didn't force you to recite any vows.  Your marriage is not invalid in the eyes of God all because you recited vows before people that God set in positions of power to witness them.  You can claim you didn't understand your vows or even know what you were saying, but that could have simply been a helluva bachelor party the night before.  Ya know?  Again, you were united voluntarily and no one held a gun to your head.

I believe that God used the state/rulers, if you will, to solidify your physical union in the same way God uses men like Paul to betroth us to Christ - by deed and by word.  And you were planning on marrying your wife however long before you actually tied the knot, right?  The state didn't put it on your heart to want to be married to your wife.  They were just there in the event you decided you wanted to marry her.



He who finds a wife, finds a good thing.

The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

To humans belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the proper answer of the tongue.

Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

A person's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand their own way?


Don't be concerned that simply because you have a written record of your marriage to your wife from those put in place by God, that God didn't join you two together.

And you can be sure that your wife didn't know what she was reciting either.  Not many do when they're that in love.  Being in love is hypnotic and people aren't typically in the best frame of mind when they're drunk on love.   

It's very humbling to discover in our walk with Christ that we have no free will.

I really hope that you are not regretting marrying your wife?  I hope she is treating you good and is kind to you, Michael.  We may disagree on certain trivial things, and get a little rude here and there, but I would venture to guess based on what I have read from you that you have been kind and faithful to her as much as humanly possible.  And God wouldn't have a problem with that.

God bless you,
Gina
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Ian 155

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2015, 06:26:39 AM »

I thought Adam and Eve were brought together by God spiritually, no vows, no wedding, no limo, and no Pagan stuff; Maybe we should be doing the same.   Ricky


There may be different levels of understanding on this, the whole Adam and eve Parable is just that ,Adam being a “type of Christ” Eve representing Humanity .... Without permission God takes out of Adam a Bone then proceeds to create Eve. When the “bride” Eve is formed Adam is happy Bone of my bone flesh of my flesh.(we all come out of Christ)In him and thru him all ALL things...

Eve or humanity is considered Weak or spoken of as the weaker as she like us circumed to the Serpent. Likewise all of us go thru this hence we are weak/wicked/...whichever theologian’s dictionary you follow.

The whole word is about the fusion of the 2 – for this reason a MAN shall leave his FATHERS HOUSE and be joined to his wife and the 2 shall become as one.

For the same Reason ...Jesus Left /was sent from his FATHER's HOUSE in order to become one with us.(I believe)

There is rejoicing at the arrival of The Christ in us and it impacts many...Luke 1 v44

Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
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lurquer

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2015, 11:02:11 AM »

I understand what you are saying, Ian.  Thanks for (finally) making sense.  And I agree with this at least.  But I still do believe Adam and Eve were also literal human beings. If you have scripture to show otherwise, I'm all ears.
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lurquer

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2015, 11:40:00 AM »

Michael, you have such a double standard.  You say you believe that vows are unnecessary when it comes to marriage, but then you turn around and beg us to answer you just so that you can have visible, written proof that people are in agreement with you.  haha!  You are a funny man, Michael.

Come on, let's stop this nonsense and be glad for what we have.  A vow in marriage and a ceremony isn't some extreme heavy burden that people are under.  You wed your wife, voluntarily!  Nobody held a gun to your head, ha ha -- you WANTED to marry her, remember?  You would have done anything to marry her, remember?  So what's the big deal?

You're bringing this forum down to the dumps over something you say you're unclear on but then you finally let out your position, but still you have double standard. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd be really embarrassed.

Well, Gina, all I can say is you are wrong.  You're wrong about my position, you misunderstand my intentions, and you do err by fantasizing about my reasons for asking these things.  You also do err in not carefully studying the scriptures with regard to this subject, but instead deferring to what 'the church' has always taught, and how the state foists their doctrine upon us.  All of the wedding vows/ceremonies/accoutrements are demonstrably pagan in nature and serve no purpose for God's people.  The "marriage covenant" THEORY proposed by most in Babylon is a pure, unscriptural fiction.

Do I have a double standard?  I've no idea.  The Lord knows.  I only want the truth and I despise error.  I honestly believe this matter of marriage is deeply misunderstood by God's people (especially in our Western society), and the error is propagating...and metastasizing. 

I am not 100% certain about my thoughts on this, which is why I bothered to ask the members here what their ideas were (I respect your opinions).  Frankly, I expected more searched-out and cognizant positions from them, so we could 'compare notes'.  But it seems I'm the only one who's really given this subject some serious, long term thought.  Most, instead only regurgitate what Ray said in one short study.. I love Ray and understand and accept almost everything he's taught (else I wouldn't be here).  But I think he totally missed it on this and it has brought confusion (to me, at least)  at a time when I was really seeking.  I asked about the vow because I didn't think it existed and I wanted to know if there was something I missed--OR--are most people just accepting a doctrine blindly. 

No one has the whole truth, Gina.  Ray did not write scripture.  We all could use some guidance.  This world God made is an unimaginably complicated place with realms inside of realms and the darkness of this Age shrouds almost everything.  But sometimes, God lifts the curtain--just a little bit...for those who want to see.

This discussion was not about me, or my personal life.  If it helps you, I have a happy marriage with my wife; we love each other and neither of us have any regrets. She doesn't see things the way I do (she is totally ambivalent about these Truths we've learned here, for instance), but that's ok.  No, I did not intend to "bring this forum down in the dumps"...Please, really?  If that is the consensus, let others say so and I'll just go away.  No harm, no foul.  And no, I'm not embarrassed; I have no reason to be.

Meanwhile, I'll try and answer a question that's posed about this subject.  My intention is to dispel confusion--others' and my own. If that offends you, my apologies... (In any case, you said your mind was already satisfied with your understanding, so why do you keep needling me??)
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John from Kentucky

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2015, 12:57:21 PM »

NEWSFLASH !!!!

Hey guys, I found this really, really cool bible study by Ray on marriage.  He based his study on the Scriptures.  Isn't that unusual?  I attached it below; everyone should study it.

Just think.  Ray was just a roofer.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.0.html
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Kat

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2015, 01:41:35 PM »


I think everybody has read Ray's material, it is very helpful... but he could not cover everything, now could he. Now should we just remain where we are or should we continue to grow? "Do not quench the Spirit (1Th 5:19. There is no harm that I can see in this discussion... sometimes people need to talk things out. You can contribute if you think you have something that will help, none of us have all the answers, but together we can come to a better understanding. Or you certainly can just stay out of it, if it is not to your llikeing. There are many Scripture references being used and as long as this remains civil it can be helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 01:50:22 PM by Kat »
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walt123

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2015, 01:48:37 PM »

Hello all,

My 1/2 of a cent,reading this post was like a soap opera,I will" quote" Gina,

  The elect have their minds on the things of the spirit.  But, those who have their minds on the flesh, seek after those things pertaining to the flesh.  Is that clear enough?

Walt.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2015, 02:44:30 PM »


I think everybody has read Ray's material, it is very helpful... but he could not cover everything, now could he. Now should we just remain where we are or should we continue to grow? "Do not quench the Spirit (1Th 5:19. There is no harm that I can see in this discussion... sometimes people need to talk things out. You can contribute if you think you have something that will help, none of us have all the answers, but together we can come to a better understanding. Or you certainly can just stay out of it, if it is not to your llikeing. There are many Scripture references being used and as long as this remains civil it can be helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I like the idea of continuing to grow and not squelching the Spirit.

In the past, I attempted to follow up on Ray's teaching on the nature of God and the thoughts expressed in his creed.  But that discussion was stopped.  The nature of God is at the spear point, the cutting edge of where we are going because we are His children and we will be like Him.

But on this topic, we have some ignoring the Scriptures and giving us personal opinions about a topic well covered by Ray, from the Scriptures.

Kat, can you cite me one thing we have learned from this thread, from at least two Scriptures, that were not covered by Ray in his bible study on marriage?

I perceive one kind of spirit was squelched.  But not the One that truly matters.

Mercy, peace, and love to you too.
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Kat

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2015, 03:14:38 PM »


John all of us in here follow Ray's teachings, but it's certainly not the end of it, and sometimes people needs more explanation. I may not be interested in contributing more in this topic or you may not, then just stay out of it and stop trying to moderate it what people can say or not say.

We are liked minded people brought together by Ray's teaching, there should not be somebody bashing people over the head with their self-righteous opinions in here. People need this place to have discussions, but it does nobody any good for somebody to lord it over the rest and belittle peoples attempt to gain understanding.

mercy, peace and love (I say this sincerely, even in the face of adversity)
Kat 
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John from Kentucky

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Re: The Marriage Vow
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2015, 03:34:44 PM »


John all of us in here follow Ray's teachings, but it's certainly not the end of it, and sometimes people needs more explanation. I may not be interested in contributing more in this topic or you may not, then just stay out of it and stop trying to moderate it what people can say or not say.

We are liked minded people brought together by Ray's teaching, there should not be somebody bashing people over the head with their self-righteous opinions in here. People need this place to have discussions, but it does nobody any good for somebody to lord it over the rest and belittle peoples attempt to gain understanding.

mercy, peace and love (I say this sincerely, even in the face of adversity)
Kat


Kat, everyone here does not follow Ray's teachings as shown by this thread.

Under the guise of "discussion", some try to bring in other teachings, unsupported by Scriptures, which I believe is against Forum rules.  One rule is "If you have come here to teach us, then take your teachings elsewhere."

I ask my previous question again.  What have we learned in this thread that Ray did not cover in his bible study on marriage (at least two Scriptures please.) ?

If I may be permitted to use a beloved Ray-ism---I'm holding my breath........................

I'm sorry to cause you adversity.  Maybe you'll get a bigger set of wings in the age to come.   :D   (Oh, for those who are humor challenged, the bigger set of wings thing is not scriptural, but a joke.)
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