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[cheekie3]

All -

I do not fully understand why we are accountable to God for all we desire, think, say and do - when we are powerless to do otherwise as He works everything according to the counsel of His Will.

The good we all do is only possible if we have His Holy Spirit within us.

I know that we will all ultimately be cleansed of our sins and be in the image of God.

The area I am struggling with is when we sin - whether we want to or not - we are accountable for it - even though we are powerless to do otherwise.

So for example, if I lie to my parents, smoke, drink and take drugs - I am in a hopeless position to change until God has determined it is His time for me to do so - even if I cry out to Him to heal me day and night for many years.

Have I misunderstood any of this; and has Ray specifically taught on this.

George.

[Extol]

Hey George,

We have to go through a lot--over a long period of time--in this experience of good and evil God has given us. God doesn't deliver us from sin at age 18 when we realize the errors of our ways. Why? Because that would be far too easy. God went through a LOT for us; Jesus went through a LOT for us. It was not easy. We have to be made into that image, so it's not going to be easy for us either.

I think sin and accountability are part of that process. If God granted me victory over all of my sins right now, at age 30--imagine how spiritually puffed up I might become. On a related note, God doesn't give us understanding of EVERYTHING after just a few years of study. A lot of us come to Ray's site and read read read for a few weeks, and we want to know the whole Bible, NOW. But no, it takes our whole lifetime, and even then God may not show us some things. As Ray once said, God sometimes doesn't show us everything because friends don't let friends drive drunk. We want to have all spiritual knowledge and get drunk (spiritually speaking) on that knowledge. I want to be perfected while still in my youth, but then I might get drunk on my so-called righteousness. Here is the whole excerpt, from Ray's LOVE Bible study:


There's a song ‘What a Friend We Have in Jesus.’ Somebody read that scripture and wrote a song about it. Some of you might be thinking, 'if He’s such a friend, why don’t He help me out, like some of my friends would if they could? How come my friend Jesus, doesn’t do that? How come He doesn’t bail me out and how come He doesn’t do more things for me? How come He doesn’t make me feel better and get rid of this problem, if He’s really my Friend, why doesn’t He do that?

I have an answer for that, it came to me this morning. You know why He doesn’t do that? Because He says we’re His friends and He’s our friends, and we say 'wait, somebody I consider a friend will do more for me than I think that Jesus does for me sometimes.' Don’t think that way. Why? You know why.

“BECAUSE FRIENDS DON’T LET FRIENDS DRIVE DRUNK.”

That a spiritual statement. Because friends don’t let friends drive drunk, most of the time. When we want what we want and when we want it and wonder why God doesn't give it to us. It’s because we want to get spiritually drunk, and we want to drive in this world spiritually drunk and friends don’t let friends drive drunk. Christ won’t let you do what could kill you, spiritually. So there is a reason why you don’t get everything you want, when you want it. There’s even more.

We don’t get it, because maybe it would be okay to have it, but He is building strength in His Saints, spiritual strength. Those that can do without and still love God for not having what they think they need, now what do we call that? We call that living by faith, see. If you get everything you need... everything you want... everything you desire... you don’t have faith for anything.

It’s when you don’t see a way out of the spiritual prison that Christ has put you in. It’s got a door with bars and windows with bars and there is no way out, you have got to pay the price (This is in my next installment, by the way, part D). There is no way out, you got to pay the utter most for it. You say, 'I don’t even know what it is.' God knows! Christ puts you in prison sometimes. You have to live by faith, you have no choice but to live by faith. Either that or give up on God, and throw it all away and say 'I’m through with this living Godly stuff.'
 
You got to live by faith and hopefully that’s what we’re doing.

I can see how I could get very puffed up if I overcame my sin, and if I had all spiritual knowledge. Thank God He knows me better; He only gives me what I can handle, and the same goes for all of us. You say you're in a hopeless position until God has determined it is His time...That is the key George, until God determines it is time. And it's not a hopeless position at all if you have faith that God will give you victory in His time. As far as the accountability part of it, that is just another part of the teaching process. If we sinned--whether we wanted to or not--and God patted us on the back and said "It's okay, you're forgiven," what would we learn from that? We might want to just keep sinning if there isn't accountability. And as Ray said many times, we do volunteer to sin, so it's not unfair that God holds us accountable. We might get very tired of it after years and years, but we still volunteer to do it. Even if we want to be delivered from it, it still feels good to lie, smoke, drink, take drugs, fornicate--if it didn't feel good, it would be much easier to stop; but if it were much easier to stop, then maybe we wouldn't learn everything that God wants us to learn. Until He does give us victory over the sin, we just have to live by faith and believe God knows what He is doing.

[John from Kentucky]

We are accountable to God because it is "We" who do the good and evil in our lives.

We do not have free will, but we do make our choices.  God does not force us or make us sin.  God has made us so spiritually weak that we by our very nature choose to sin.  "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10

Then the question becomes, why did God make us this way?  The answer is found in Romans 9:18-21.

Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault?  For who has resisted His will?"

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?  Will the thing formed say to Him Who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

[lilitalienboi16]

Along the lines of what John said but taking it one step further as to why God does it the way He does it, Paul answers that. Listen to ray here:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.0.html
TO THE FORUM:

The answer your questions regarding why God holds accountable and judges those who merely do what they are inclined to do, is found in Rom. 9:
 
"For the children being not yet born, neither have done ANY good OR evil, that the purpose of God according to election [divine selection, divine chosen] might stand, not of works, but of him that calls; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there UNRIGHTEOUSNESS WITH GOD?  God forbid... So then it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy... Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will be hardens" (Rom. 9:11-18).
 
And so here is where your discussion revolves.  Yes, it is so, that God chooses whom He will have mercy on and whom He will harden.  It is God Himself Who not only chooses whom He will, but it is also God Himself Who BRINGS ABOUT the condition of the two parties in question (a vessel of honor versus a vessel of dishonor--one upon whom mercy is bestowed, and the other upon whom hardness is bestowed).  And so, as this IS the way things are, does this not make God Himself UNRIGHTEOUS?  And Paul also emphatically answers his own question it "GOD FORBID!"
 
But Paul realizes that his readers will find fault with this line of teaching and reasoning, and so Paul presents the question that naturally comes to our minds when we first hear these strange teachings:  "You will say then unto me [or unto Forum members] WHY DOES HE [GOD] YET FIND FAULT? For [because] who has [EVER] resisted His will [purpose, plan, or intentions]?"
 
Yes, since God is Sovereign and no one can go against His foreknowledge of WHAT MUST BE, why then does God find fault with those who are merely doing what they with their evil and carnal minds MUST DO?
 
Okay, here is Paul's answer: 

"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [the man doing merely what he was designed to do] say to Him that formed it [God the Potter] WHY have you made me thus [this way?]" (Rom. 9:19-20).
 
We as God's "Pots" have no right to ask God WHY He does what He does. HE IS GOD!!
 
But, for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, God, nonetheless, does tell us WHY.

"What if God will to show His wrath, and to make his power known, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He has BEFORE prepared unto glory."
 
God is going to show how GOOD the good are by contrasting them with how BAD the bad are. And God has this right, since He is the Potter, and we are merely the clay.  It is GOOD that we all LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS (Isa. 26:9).  One group (the chosen elect) just learn it earlier than do the vessels of dishonor.  They will not be left out: 

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN [vessels of dishonour], especially [now] of those that believe [the vessels of honour]" (I Tim. 4:10).
 
But remember, we also were like the vessels of dishonour fitted for wrath, in "times past":

"Among whom also WE ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh [vessels of dishonour] and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph. 2:3).
 
We are ALL "marred in the Potter's hand" sometime in our lives, and must be refashioned after the likeness of His Son. So God is no respecter of persons, He merely has a schedule for which vessels get saved first.  It is good that we learn righteousness by the evils that God imposes upon us, even if we are "NOT WILLING" that He should operate in this way (Rom. 8:20).

God be with you all,

Ray

------------------------------------

Let me just also Emphasize what John did say because its true:

"...but we do make our choices.  God does not force us or make us sin.  God has made us so spiritually weak that we by our very nature choose to sin.  "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10"

Remember, subject to vanity, the heart is exceedingly weak, who can know it? Yet who made this heart and who created us subject to vanity? God. So he takes responsbility but he forces no man to sin, man voluntarily desires to sin because of how weak his heart it. Its absolutely necessary if we are going to become like God and you just have to trust that He knows the absolute best and most perfect way to make sons and daughters. Remember, this is all for OUR benefit. He loves us that much.

God bless,
Alex

[Rene]

Have I misunderstood any of this; and has Ray specifically taught on this.

Hi George,

In addition to the other comments, here is an email reply that Ray answered on this subject:

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility

Dear Chris:

 You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

 But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

 Ray


René

[gk@rivervalley]

All -

I do not fully understand why we are accountable to God for all we desire, think, say and do - when we are powerless to do otherwise as He works everything according to the counsel of His Will.

The good we all do is only possible if we have His Holy Spirit within us.

I know that we will all ultimately be cleansed of our sins and be in the image of God.

The area I am struggling with is when we sin - whether we want to or not - we are accountable for it - even though we are powerless to do otherwise.

So for example, if I lie to my parents, smoke, drink and take drugs - I am in a hopeless position to change until God has determined it is His time for me to do so - even if I cry out to Him to heal me day and night for many years.

Have I misunderstood any of this; and has Ray specifically taught on this.

George.

There is a substantial difference between 'understand'......and agree.  I write that because of the underlined statements.  It appears you do, actually, understand.   

Just my observation. 

BTW: EXTOL, that was a beautiful reply.  Ray>>very smart.

[Kat]

Hi George,

I think about how varied the lives of people are... God has given us different personalities and weaknesses and strengths, all these things contributes to us all becoming unique individuals. In doing this there are some rather extreme degrees, from vessels of honor all the way to vessels of dishonor, but it's framed in (limited) by what God has determined would be necessary for us, to gain a life experience using good and evil. It's all for our benefit to learn by first having this physical life... and part of the learning process will be judgment.

Well you wonder why are we are held accountable, will be judged, when it's God doing that works everything according to the counsel of His Will. Yes God is sovereign, and that means things can only happen when His power gives it viability to happen... so if it is going to happen, it has to be by Him or it just can't.

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

I think that's where people may be getting hung up, that by God being sovereign and so responsible for everything... well how are we then accountable? Because that's how God made it to be, where we have a life/existence where we can and do make our own chooses. Now most of our influences are so very subtle that we don't even realize it. The cause and effect thing happens as a practically unperceived part of everything, and so much so that it has brought about the believe that we have an free will.

So God did put in us the ability to make a choice and though it's not free, our minds went through a process of deciding/choosing
what we want to do, say or even think. Whether it's a good choice or a bad choice, whether we enjoy it or hate it, that decision came from our own determination to do it, whatever the reasons be hide the decision.

The thing is we do need this experience of evil, because to truly 'know' something is to experience it. So we all have weaknesses, that will lead us into improper behavior - sin. Obviously if these weaknesses are developed/practiced enough they can become grievous, lead to terrible wickedness - vessels of dishonor. But how else are we to have an evil experience, unless there are the evil doers?

We each have our own lives to look back on to recognize that we decided and volunteered to do what we did. Just like the Father did not force Christ to go to the cross, neither are we forced by God to sin, we do so willfully or at less willingly. This life is for our benefit, an experience we need to have in order to learn about living/existence, the accountability is a necessary part of this living and learning experience. So it's how God made things to be, so when we sin, we 'need' to suffer judgment... it's to learn that evil has a cost.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

So many good replies!

I also think that part of Fearing/Respecting is "trusting" God on what is He doing with us -,all.

When I am becoming haughty, I start to fear a little, because whats Next is my fall. And life is so good for putting me down...

[rick]

Hello George,

Ray has made it quite clear why we are held accountable in his papers. Yes its true God sends us all the causes through thousands and thousands of circumstances that force us to make a choice one way or the other.

The reason we are held accountable is because we enjoyed the sin/s we commit. It does not always stay that way for us George, first we realize our sins are not right then we try to stop sinning on our own only to discover we cannot.

Then comes the guilt and the sense of failure and the realization we are totally helpless and by the way we should never live in guilt but understand that guilt is only there to let us know something is wrong in our life and move on from it.

We will keep sinning our sins to the point of hating our sins and this is a good thing because as we learn to hate our sins we must realize we are beginning to think like God.

I’m losing interest in things I thought I would never lose interest in and obviously these interest were always sinful interest. Its all about growing and learning righteousness and its all good George just not always easy but nonetheless we must go through all these things God puts us through for our own good.

Hope that helps. 

[cheekie3]

All -

Thank you for your excellent responses - which show the Scriptural Witnesses to my question - but I am still struggling with a specific situation where a person is crying out for help, and has been for a long, long time - with many of God's Elect praying for them each and every day for many, many years - yet the situation has not changed - and we all know it us only The Lord God Almighty that can change us.

George.

[Kat]

Hi George, I can only imagine how difficult things must be for some elect... we hear many things here at the forum that people are going through that sound really hard.

I have to trust that God is working something through the difficult and prolong periods that He wants those people to know and understand. I can't help but think the harder the trial that God is using in teaching/preparing His elect then they are gaining the more from it. After all the body has many different parts, to serve many different purposes.

1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
v.  18  But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
v. 19  And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
v. 20  But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
v. 21  And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
v. 22  No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
v. 23  And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
v. 24  but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
v. 25  that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

I know you have heard it before Isa 40:31  But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength;..... still I pray every day…. Psa 94:3  LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph? 
Waiting, takes more power than doing, but the expectation of what He is going to do is, for me is worth the wait.

[lilitalienboi16]

I know you have heard it before Isa 40:31  But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength;..... still I pray every day…. Psa 94:3  LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph? 
Waiting, takes more power than doing, but the expectation of what He is going to do is, for me is worth the wait.

Very much worth the wait dear brother!

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

1Co 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.