> General Discussions
Our accountability to God
cheekie3:
All -
I do not fully understand why we are accountable to God for all we desire, think, say and do - when we are powerless to do otherwise as He works everything according to the counsel of His Will.
The good we all do is only possible if we have His Holy Spirit within us.
I know that we will all ultimately be cleansed of our sins and be in the image of God.
The area I am struggling with is when we sin - whether we want to or not - we are accountable for it - even though we are powerless to do otherwise.
So for example, if I lie to my parents, smoke, drink and take drugs - I am in a hopeless position to change until God has determined it is His time for me to do so - even if I cry out to Him to heal me day and night for many years.
Have I misunderstood any of this; and has Ray specifically taught on this.
George.
Extol:
Hey George,
We have to go through a lot--over a long period of time--in this experience of good and evil God has given us. God doesn't deliver us from sin at age 18 when we realize the errors of our ways. Why? Because that would be far too easy. God went through a LOT for us; Jesus went through a LOT for us. It was not easy. We have to be made into that image, so it's not going to be easy for us either.
I think sin and accountability are part of that process. If God granted me victory over all of my sins right now, at age 30--imagine how spiritually puffed up I might become. On a related note, God doesn't give us understanding of EVERYTHING after just a few years of study. A lot of us come to Ray's site and read read read for a few weeks, and we want to know the whole Bible, NOW. But no, it takes our whole lifetime, and even then God may not show us some things. As Ray once said, God sometimes doesn't show us everything because friends don't let friends drive drunk. We want to have all spiritual knowledge and get drunk (spiritually speaking) on that knowledge. I want to be perfected while still in my youth, but then I might get drunk on my so-called righteousness. Here is the whole excerpt, from Ray's LOVE Bible study:
There's a song ‘What a Friend We Have in Jesus.’ Somebody read that scripture and wrote a song about it. Some of you might be thinking, 'if He’s such a friend, why don’t He help me out, like some of my friends would if they could? How come my friend Jesus, doesn’t do that? How come He doesn’t bail me out and how come He doesn’t do more things for me? How come He doesn’t make me feel better and get rid of this problem, if He’s really my Friend, why doesn’t He do that?
I have an answer for that, it came to me this morning. You know why He doesn’t do that? Because He says we’re His friends and He’s our friends, and we say 'wait, somebody I consider a friend will do more for me than I think that Jesus does for me sometimes.' Don’t think that way. Why? You know why.
“BECAUSE FRIENDS DON’T LET FRIENDS DRIVE DRUNK.”
That a spiritual statement. Because friends don’t let friends drive drunk, most of the time. When we want what we want and when we want it and wonder why God doesn't give it to us. It’s because we want to get spiritually drunk, and we want to drive in this world spiritually drunk and friends don’t let friends drive drunk. Christ won’t let you do what could kill you, spiritually. So there is a reason why you don’t get everything you want, when you want it. There’s even more.
We don’t get it, because maybe it would be okay to have it, but He is building strength in His Saints, spiritual strength. Those that can do without and still love God for not having what they think they need, now what do we call that? We call that living by faith, see. If you get everything you need... everything you want... everything you desire... you don’t have faith for anything.
It’s when you don’t see a way out of the spiritual prison that Christ has put you in. It’s got a door with bars and windows with bars and there is no way out, you have got to pay the price (This is in my next installment, by the way, part D). There is no way out, you got to pay the utter most for it. You say, 'I don’t even know what it is.' God knows! Christ puts you in prison sometimes. You have to live by faith, you have no choice but to live by faith. Either that or give up on God, and throw it all away and say 'I’m through with this living Godly stuff.'
You got to live by faith and hopefully that’s what we’re doing.
I can see how I could get very puffed up if I overcame my sin, and if I had all spiritual knowledge. Thank God He knows me better; He only gives me what I can handle, and the same goes for all of us. You say you're in a hopeless position until God has determined it is His time...That is the key George, until God determines it is time. And it's not a hopeless position at all if you have faith that God will give you victory in His time. As far as the accountability part of it, that is just another part of the teaching process. If we sinned--whether we wanted to or not--and God patted us on the back and said "It's okay, you're forgiven," what would we learn from that? We might want to just keep sinning if there isn't accountability. And as Ray said many times, we do volunteer to sin, so it's not unfair that God holds us accountable. We might get very tired of it after years and years, but we still volunteer to do it. Even if we want to be delivered from it, it still feels good to lie, smoke, drink, take drugs, fornicate--if it didn't feel good, it would be much easier to stop; but if it were much easier to stop, then maybe we wouldn't learn everything that God wants us to learn. Until He does give us victory over the sin, we just have to live by faith and believe God knows what He is doing.
John from Kentucky:
We are accountable to God because it is "We" who do the good and evil in our lives.
We do not have free will, but we do make our choices. God does not force us or make us sin. God has made us so spiritually weak that we by our very nature choose to sin. "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10
Then the question becomes, why did God make us this way? The answer is found in Romans 9:18-21.
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to Him Who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
lilitalienboi16:
Along the lines of what John said but taking it one step further as to why God does it the way He does it, Paul answers that. Listen to ray here:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.0.html
TO THE FORUM:
The answer your questions regarding why God holds accountable and judges those who merely do what they are inclined to do, is found in Rom. 9:
"For the children being not yet born, neither have done ANY good OR evil, that the purpose of God according to election [divine selection, divine chosen] might stand, not of works, but of him that calls; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there UNRIGHTEOUSNESS WITH GOD? God forbid... So then it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy... Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will be hardens" (Rom. 9:11-18).
And so here is where your discussion revolves. Yes, it is so, that God chooses whom He will have mercy on and whom He will harden. It is God Himself Who not only chooses whom He will, but it is also God Himself Who BRINGS ABOUT the condition of the two parties in question (a vessel of honor versus a vessel of dishonor--one upon whom mercy is bestowed, and the other upon whom hardness is bestowed). And so, as this IS the way things are, does this not make God Himself UNRIGHTEOUS? And Paul also emphatically answers his own question it "GOD FORBID!"
But Paul realizes that his readers will find fault with this line of teaching and reasoning, and so Paul presents the question that naturally comes to our minds when we first hear these strange teachings: "You will say then unto me [or unto Forum members] WHY DOES HE [GOD] YET FIND FAULT? For [because] who has [EVER] resisted His will [purpose, plan, or intentions]?"
Yes, since God is Sovereign and no one can go against His foreknowledge of WHAT MUST BE, why then does God find fault with those who are merely doing what they with their evil and carnal minds MUST DO?
Okay, here is Paul's answer:
"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [the man doing merely what he was designed to do] say to Him that formed it [God the Potter] WHY have you made me thus [this way?]" (Rom. 9:19-20).
We as God's "Pots" have no right to ask God WHY He does what He does. HE IS GOD!!
But, for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, God, nonetheless, does tell us WHY.
"What if God will to show His wrath, and to make his power known, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He has BEFORE prepared unto glory."
God is going to show how GOOD the good are by contrasting them with how BAD the bad are. And God has this right, since He is the Potter, and we are merely the clay. It is GOOD that we all LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS (Isa. 26:9). One group (the chosen elect) just learn it earlier than do the vessels of dishonor. They will not be left out:
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN [vessels of dishonour], especially [now] of those that believe [the vessels of honour]" (I Tim. 4:10).
But remember, we also were like the vessels of dishonour fitted for wrath, in "times past":
"Among whom also WE ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh [vessels of dishonour] and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph. 2:3).
We are ALL "marred in the Potter's hand" sometime in our lives, and must be refashioned after the likeness of His Son. So God is no respecter of persons, He merely has a schedule for which vessels get saved first. It is good that we learn righteousness by the evils that God imposes upon us, even if we are "NOT WILLING" that He should operate in this way (Rom. 8:20).
God be with you all,
Ray
------------------------------------
Let me just also Emphasize what John did say because its true:
"...but we do make our choices. God does not force us or make us sin. God has made us so spiritually weak that we by our very nature choose to sin. "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10"
Remember, subject to vanity, the heart is exceedingly weak, who can know it? Yet who made this heart and who created us subject to vanity? God. So he takes responsbility but he forces no man to sin, man voluntarily desires to sin because of how weak his heart it. Its absolutely necessary if we are going to become like God and you just have to trust that He knows the absolute best and most perfect way to make sons and daughters. Remember, this is all for OUR benefit. He loves us that much.
God bless,
Alex
Rene:
--- Quote from: cheekie3 on February 24, 2015, 12:59:49 PM ---
Have I misunderstood any of this; and has Ray specifically taught on this.
--- End quote ---
Hi George,
In addition to the other comments, here is an email reply that Ray answered on this subject:
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility
Dear Chris:
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
René
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version