Is it possible to be Chosen of God without reading The Scriptures

[Ian 155]

Ok. How about the man on the cross next to Jesus?

The question was is it possible for someone to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures..

The answer is yes. God can choose whomever He wants. He can choose someone from before the foundation of the world and determine that this chosen one would not even have access to a bible. How can anyone say that is not possible? How is that going outside of Gods parameters?

Scripture tells us which is more important, knowing the bible or doing what Christ commanded which is to love one another as ourselves. Romans also says that it's possible for those who are without the law (love God and love your neighbor as yourself) to do instinctively what the law commands (love God and love your neighbor as yourself)..

It is not the hearers or readers of the word who will be justified but the doers. Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself is the sum of all the commands. People can obey the one single command which sums up all commands without ever opening a bible. They can be chosen of God before the creation of the world to obey and be justified.

This is my understanding and I don't proclaim that my understanding is right or wrong. It's just the understanding that I have now.

I  havnt followed this whole thread but - if you dont know the Law ,how can you do the things written therein and if you dont know what Jesus Says how can one do the things he Says ?

Paul writes that he does have knowledge even though he has trouble expressing it in words,and he does instruct us to study..

If you read any book for instance, you visualize the story in your heart/mind you may even relate to some of the words written.

That visualisation/interpretation can be wrong though and perhaps many months later in a discussion say,you may have a lightbulb moment where that which you read suddenly has a greater meaning - but you cant relate to this if its not stashed somewhere in ones memory (because of what you read)matt 13 v 52

Luk 9:44  Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. [/b]
Luk 9:45  But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

The disciples were not literally reading what Jesus was saying.... they were  listening -

so I think i hear what you are asking Largely

I think one is compelled to read the word this compulsion is heightened when you understand it.... as far as "can one be chosen if one does  not read the word"   

(READ)    what Jesus said to the wife of Zebedee 
Matt 20 v 20 - 23

many folk read and read and read and still have no clue - its not up to us

I suppose bible audios would be ok

[lareli]

I  havnt followed this whole thread but - if you dont know the Law ,how can you do the things written therein and if you dont know what Jesus Says how can one do the things he Says ?

God can do anything He wants. He can raise up children of Abraham from a stone if He wants. Its impossible for our finite minds to fully comprehend an infinite god.

Romans 2:14,16

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.


Love your god and love your neighbors as yourself is the law that sums up all laws. Its the opposite of hypocrisy. Even those who never open a bible know what hypocrisy is and that its evil. Whether we obey our conscience when it convicts us of hypocrisy or not is another issue. But it is possible to be a doer of the word and obey the law of Christ and not ever study scripture.

[Kat]

largely, you read from a passage where Paul is explaining that the physical Jews would not gain salvation by their keeping the laws physically. But the Gentiles never were allowed into the synagogues or Temple where the only Scripture were kept, yet they are capable of understanding the truth. They did not have Bibles to study at that time, they were learning from Paul's teaching. Those people at that time were taught about God and the truth through preaching, they learned through "hearing," not just because they had a the truth automatically.

James 1:22  But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
v. 23  For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
v. 24  for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

Do you really think that now when just about every person can easily own a Bible to read that they don't need that? In early times when there was no Bibles, they had to learn through preaching, but they learned the truth from somebody, it was not just an instinctual thing. Paul was sent to them to teach them the truth, just like anybody must learn it.

Acts 13:46  And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
v. 47  For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
v. 48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
v. 49  And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region.

We are very blessed in this day to have so must available for us to study and learn from, look at the internet, a major means of knowledge increasing. All of this is a great aid to the elect to study and learn much, if God has chosen and inspired them to. To think otherwise is just making excuses.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ian 155]

mmmm  OK  - once again read Rom 7v7

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? God forbid. But I do not know sin, but by the law; for I had not known concupiscence, if the law did not say: Thou shalt not covet.

[lilitalienboi16]

Some people here simply refuse to hear and understand this matter despite the ample scriptures that have been shared: these Words of God, which state and admonish us to study the scriptures--To study the Word of God. There is a pattern to how God raises up those who will REIGN with Christ. Here are more witnesses to this testimony:

Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

Matthew 13:44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."

There are people throwing around one verse here and there, sowing confusion among those less learned. We are told that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

As for how people learned before we had the scriptures, how did people study? They had the words straight from those God had chosen to spread His gospel around the world. Kat explained this and I think she hit the nail on the head. After these men were departed, their works were preserved so that those who could not learn directly from them now had their words to study from.

You want to be a king? You want to be chosen of God and overcome? Then you need to SEARCH THE MATTER OUT:

You need to..."Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15) because "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

While there is nothing we in ourselves can do to attain election, you have to understand that God has a pattern and way of doing things and those things are laid out for us in the scriptures. He does not change. If we were admonished two thousand years ago to study the Words, to search the matters out, to sell everything we have so we can buy that field, etc... then it is the same today as well.

Alex

[rick]

Hello Alex,

your absolutely right in what your saying, Amen brother. 

[cheekie3]

All -

Thank you all for your responses - and I am wondering how the Lord chose members of His Elect when the Scriptures were not available to them.

I know that Jesus needs to send The Comforter to dwell within the Elect - but is it possible for such a person (whether in the dark ages or today) to be a member of the Elect without studying the Scriptures with God Judging them in this Age.

George.

[Kat]

Hi George,

Well the Scriptures are a tremendous (if not vital) help that's for sure, and I can't help but think God would have provided some kind of way that those He has chosen to have access to the New Testament. I mean there are only a few He is choosing out of the world and I can see how those few could have been put in 'special' circumstances that they would have some way to read.

So I am thinking that there is a need to have some degree of knowledge of Scripture in order to have a unity in understanding among the elect. Even in the dark ages, when most may have been illiterate, the Scripture were read in the churches, I would think that God, by the Holy Spirit, could have uses what was available and taught them whatever He wanted.

It is interesting that we really don't have any 'known' record of the elect throughout the centuries. But one thing is clear to me, that by having the Holy Spirit indwelling God would have ways to be able to teach them any and everything an elect would need to know.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

[Joel]

Romans 10 comes to mind, and especially verses 12-15. & 17
12-For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
For the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13-For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14-How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15-And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

17-So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Joel

[octoberose]

I was considering the same thing as Indiana Bob.  How many hundreds of years were the Catholic church the only ones with scripture? And if it was translated into anything other than Latin it was a crime, punishable by death.
How many early Christ followers never saw scripture- if they were very fortunate they were read a letter from Paul or Peter somewhere. If they went to the synagogue they could read  (OT) scripture but could they go in or even read it if they were not Jewish?
And even now, how many cultures have no access to Bibles or if they are fortunate and led by God they have one hidden that they read and try to understand with the leading of the Holy Spirit? I guess what I am saying is that the book form of the Word of God is not everything. But the Word of God is everything.
The greatest thing I struggle with is just living in this world and pursuing the things in it. I'm talking about decorating the house, buying things, cooking, reading novels, surfing the internet. These things are either worldly or they are not if they are done to the glory of God. But others who live much simpler lives and live without benefit of my Concordant Literal, they live in the grace of God every day and His leading; perhaps they don't have the knowledge we have but they have the love of God in them and pursue Him with everything.

[Kat]

I am thinking it is essential for an elect to know about Christ Jesus one way or the other, by hearing/preaching or reading the gospel about Him... even in the early years. Belief by knowledge of Christ is absolutely necessary, that is what the gospel was preserved for... it is the disciples accounts of the life, death and resurrection of the Savior and they were eye witnesses and their message reveal for us the message of the truth. Jesus stated that those that came after the disciples would be blessed for believing in Him, but to believe in Him you have to have heard the gospel.

John 20:29  Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

So we have been given the written Word, the Scripture, for the express purpose to teach us about Christ, so we can believe in Him, through faith that comes from God.

John 20:30  And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
v. 31  but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Only by the Spirit of Christ in us can we understand the gospel of Christ and that makes us part of the body, and we are united in the same beliefs and faith with other believers.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
v. 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
v. 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
v. 3 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
v. 14  that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
v. 15  but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

I guess my point is that I cannot see how somebody can be an elect without the fundamental knowledge of the gospel of Christ in the Scripture. God could certainly bring about special circumstances so that any of the very few He has chosen to be an elect could learn the truth... if a person was illiterate (in the first centuries, since most people could not read), God would provide a teacher... so maybe that is the way they were taught in those first centuries, by being taught through preaching (Romans 10:14). But whatsoever would have been needed to teach an elect (preaching or access to the Scripture) I believe could and would have been provided.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Thanks Kat,
Appreciate each of your replies, very helpful.

One addition from my mind.
During the time Paul was teaching, the truth of the Gospel was much simpler. Something like, it's either law or grace and here is how God is working with each of the called.
The students of that time had much less confusion to deal with. They weren't reading the official word from corrupt religious denominations. They may have known about some Jewish beliefs such as one true God, but Paul had to explain even that.

We today have so many erroneous opinions/traditions to erase from our former learning in "church" or seminary etc., that it is a much more difficult work of the spirit of God.

For one example, the truth that there is no hell fire to fear. Isn't this one of the teachings that Ray Smith was able to share that attracted most of us? e.g.  Finally, someone has put in print, with Bible answers, many of the questions that have been bothering me all of these years.

Of course the "spirit" can inspire each of us to dismiss what we have previously thought, but it is certainly better to begin with a clean slate, clean mind which was likely the case with the Gentiles of Paul's day who had only pagan gods to deal with.

Thanks all for your contributions; Indiana Bob

[Ricky]

2Co 5:16 (NASB) 
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17  Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.