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As it was in the day of Noah.
indianabob:
Hello Rick,
Great thoughts to consider.
I don't see that there is any difference between Noah's Day and our recent century.
Just because we today don't suffer continuously as a result of our daily sins, does not mean that we are excusable. The reason people don't respond to chastisement is that the correction is not speedily applied. Our God is patient to the point of "long suffering", but God does keep an accounting. We get away with nothing. Every transgression will be addressed in the judgment. Even though evil people prosper, for the time being, they will not retain their ill gotten gain or benefit in the end.
I think that it is a natural mistake to think that we today are not as evil as those before the flood of waters took them. Actually we may be even more evil since we ignore the scripture given to guide us and they, if I understand, did not have that guidance. Each man was a law unto himself and did what was right in his own eyes.
One example today is that of changing the laws of the land, laws that God tells us to obey.
When I was younger, gambling was illegal because it led to the break up of families. Now the State promotes organized gambling in order to increase the tax base and it still breaks up families and impoverishes the elderly.
In the past, before medical birth control, most women and men avoided pregnancy outside of marriage by abstinence because of the social stigma and other penalties/hardships. Now the State pays for birth control, subsidizes fornication, authorizes abortion and participates financially in the murder of over a million infants each year in USA.
So my main point then is that we are, as a society, possibly more evil today than in the days of Noah. We have just learned by being immersed in it to excuse it and to avoid thinking about it and instead have pushed God out of our thinking.
We know from Scripture and the good laws of our society the difference between good and evil and therefore have no excuse. So to salve our conscience we call evil good and good evil and live in the mire of our private hog pen all dressed up in our Sunday best.
No flood of waters to destroy mankind this time. This time it will be an elemental fire of our own making falling upon our heads.
Indianabob.
--- Quote from: Rick on March 04, 2015, 07:26:34 PM ---Why did Jesus reference Noah’s days concerning His return ?
Luk 17:27 tells me people will be taken by surprise ,you know life as usual.
I was not alive in Noah’s day but is there a difference between Noah’s time and ours ?
Is not the wickedness of man great , not just in a particular region but world wide ?
Luk 17:26 When the Son of Man comes, things will be just as they were when Noah lived.
Luk 17:27 Everybody kept on eating and drinking, and men and women married, up to the very day Noah went into the boat and the flood came and killed them all.
Gen 6:5 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.
--- End quote ---
Joel:
The way I see it the days of Noah was a time of warning before unexpected judgment.
I don't see it being any different at the second coming of JESUS.
Joel
lurquer:
There is much mystery still towards an understanding of the scriptures--and the words of Jesus--regarding the "Day"of His return. If someone here can reconcile the two apparently irreconcilable positions of the Return coming as a "thief", in which no one expects it (especially not the church), AND a worldwide cataclysmic event which necessarily occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the Elect, I would be grateful to hear it.
Is there any doubt, though that His return shall come with a "Great Slaughter"? As in the days of Noah, most will perish. And they will die in fear and trembling... With the Elect removed, the rest of the church will experience this. no? (On the other hand, perhaps the Elect will remain, only to be protected by Christ as Noah was in the ark).
--- Quote ---This time it will be an elemental fire of our own making falling upon our heads.
--- End quote ---
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."
Tophet: H8613, (Is.30:33), a place of burning and burying of dead bodies.
The pyre is right now being prepared. Is it in some sense quite literal? The church teaches that Tophet is 'Hell'. Its for others... What would be their reaction if they discovered their bodies will be piled on?
Kat:
--- Quote from: Joel on March 06, 2015, 09:20:46 PM ---The way I see it the days of Noah was a time of warning before unexpected judgment.
I don't see it being any different at the second coming of JESUS.
Joel
--- End quote ---
I think this is a very good point Joel. Noah was said to be a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5). So he was preaching/warning the people of the coming destruction. Another thing is the ark that was being built/prepared was a massive structure, it stood out very prominent, but nobody was convinced by Noah's preaching to go in with him. Well I think there is more parallels here.
The ark would have taken many years to be built and Noah was preaching and warning the people, he knew that God was about to bring the flood and there was only one way to be saved from it, the ark. Who believed him, accept his family?
So Noah prepared the ark, Christ said He was going to prepare a place for the elect.
John 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Christ stands out very prominent in the world today, but nobody understands (accept a very few) they must be IN Him to be saved. The church preach that you must have Him in your heart, they know nothing about being IN Him.
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are IN Him who is true, IN His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
So while Christ is making a place/kingdom ready for His elect, they will be spared from the day of destruction/judgment to come on the world. Ray certainly was warning of the impending judgment, who believed him, accept the very few spiritual family/brethren?
2Peter 3:7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kat:
--- Quote from: Neo on March 07, 2015, 08:41:40 AM ---There is much mystery still towards an understanding of the scriptures--and the words of Jesus--regarding the "Day"of His return. If someone here can reconcile the two apparently irreconcilable positions of the Return coming as a "thief", in which no one expects it (especially not the church), AND a worldwide cataclysmic event which necessarily occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the Elect, I would be grateful to hear it.
--- End quote ---
Hi Michael, yes Christ will appear suddenly 'like' a thief, in that they come when you don't expects it. As we have been discussing Scripture seem to indicate that Christ's return is as in the day of Noah and things in the world will be going on as usual right up until that very moment. God saw that the "wickedness of man was great" then in Noah's time and it has been all the way through this age, the only thing that can change that is Christ's appearing.
The "worldwide cataclysmic event" I believe will happen at and because of the actual appearance of Christ Himself, that is earth shaking event Scriptures is speaking of, His coming, not something before that happens.
But just think how the great God of the universe will appear when He reveals Himself from heaven... His glory will make the sun and moon seem as dark, the star seem to fall. He will be so magnificent and yet terrifying for those on earth as well.
Luke 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
v. 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
v. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.
v. 16 And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
v. 17 for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?
--- Quote from: Neo on March 07, 2015, 08:41:40 AM ---Is there any doubt, though that His return shall come with a "Great Slaughter"? As in the days of Noah, most will perish. And they will die in fear and trembling... With the Elect removed, the rest of the church will experience this. no? (On the other hand, perhaps the Elect will remain, only to be protected by Christ as Noah was in the ark).
--- End quote ---
The "great tribulation" (Matt 24:21) is speaking of what happens in the lives of all the elect down through the centuries, not the world at the end of the age. Matthew 24 is speaking of what will be happening throughout this age, all the way down to verse 29 where it says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days," then Christ begins to speak of His second coming.
The events that occur are at His return and will be the most monumental thing this world has ever experienced. But I do NOT believe it will be a slaughter of the people on the earth, not even the wicked. What would be the point of that? Because all the dead are going to be resurrected to be judged after Christ returns in the next age. But there will be no literal slaughter and butchering of the people, that is not what Christ is about... not at all, that is the way of the wicked of this age. Christ returns to judge the world in righteousness.
Acts 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Here is a where Ray explains this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html -----------------------------
REVEALED AND TRIED BY FIRE
"Now if any man build upon this [spiritual] foundation [Christ] gold, silver, precious stones [godly character traits], wood, hay, stubble [carnal character traits]; Every man’s work [thoughts, words, and deeds] shall be made manifest [become known, come to light]: for the day shall declare it [make it evident], because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:12-13).
The fire in these verses is no more literal than are the gold or stubble suggested as building materials. People do not construct large buildings out of gold, neither do they set them on fire after completion to see how well they will fare. This is all figurative and symbolic language to instruct us in much higher spiritual development. We are not literaI gardens of God neither are we literal buildings of God. But we are like gardens in certain ways—we are to produce good spiritual fruit. We are like buildings in certain ways—we are to be a spiritual dwelling place for God. We have works that are like gold and silver in certain ways—we have thoughts, words, and deeds of good and lasting value. We also have carnal and evil works—bad thoughts, crass words, and evil deeds that are of no lasting value and are only fit for destruction. Only God’s SPIRITUAL FIRE can burn away spiritual wickedness and evils of the heart.
All of these material items are used as symbols of spiritual things. Therefore, of necessity, the fire that tries these material symbols is also SPIRITUAL. It is not possible to burn up with fire an inanimate character flaw without burning up the person who harbors it. Likewise, it is not possible to purge and purify the good qualities of character in a person with literal fire without burning up the individual that possesses them. But spiritual fire, God’s all consuming, purging and purifying fire is perfectly suited to do just that. This trying and purging is not always pleasant, however, it is not a torture chamber either. Does this fire harm the person being purged in this fire?
SALVATION BY FIRE
No, our merciful and graceful loving God and Father does not eternally torture humanity IN fire, but rather eternally saves humanity BY fire.
Let’s read it and rejoice:
"Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).
Does everyone understand this? NO ONE is tortured, killed, or annihilated in this fire! This fire of God SAVES people who go through it! There is salvation BY means of this fire. This fire is part of God’s judgment and grace!
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4530.0.html -------------------
The broad way leads to DESTRUCTION. The word "destruction" is derived from the Greek word "apollumi" which means to DESTROY, LOSE, PERISH. And Jesus plainly (I say plainly to all those who have an ear to hear) told us that His purpose in coming for His Father (I John 4:14) is stated: "For the Son of Man is come to SAVE THAT WHICH IS LOST [Gk: 'appolumi'] (Matt. 18:11).
There it is. Jesus came to save all those who are 'appolumi,' which is most of humanity. Of course most Christians believe that He either LIED, or that He is INCAPABLE, or worse, DOESN'T WANT to save those who are 'appolumi'--LOST.
Ya know, we could put those two Scritures closer together and then it would make perfect sense, but OH how Christian zealots hate to put Scriptures together. They call it "taking Scripture out of CONTEXT. But as I really don't care what unscriptural Christians think, here goes:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION [but]... the Son of Man is come TO SAVE that which is LOST [by foolishly going in at the broad gate and are now, appolumi" (Matt. 7:13 & 18:11). There are literally hundreds more Scriptures which prove this teaching of the salvation of all.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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