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octoberose:
I'm not trying to change the subject, but as I was reading I thought, "unconditional love". And then I think, well, is God's love truly unconditional? It's conditioned on who He is, not who we are. But do we love unconditionally? Or is that a word and a concept not in the Bible? We love with patience, kindness, we don't keep count of wrongs, and love never fails. But does that convey unconditional? Or are we, am I, using the wrong word? What do you all think?
indianabob:
Octoberose,
Yes God's love is unconditional.
God's favor is a different and conditional thing.
Since we have learned that God will grant salvation to ALL we have a special understanding not available to the majority. For them to not receive God's favor or blessing or approval is a sign of hate rather than unconditional love.
So as you say we humans are unable to love unconditionally other than with the indwelling of God's spirit and that takes a lifetime of practice to even come close. It is hard to love fully when we are being hurt by those we are trying to love. It is very difficult to yield the self to the needs of others.
God on the other hand can love even His enemies, which we once were.
So I do believe that God loves unconditionally even when He must admonish, correct or punish. It is done for our good, to make us better and to teach us that we need God in our lives and that without God in our lives all is vanity and subject to be burned up.
Please offer your critique of my comments.
Thanks, Indianabob
acomplishedartis:
Thanks you all who responded to my post, and took the time and the effort.
Kat, I just read your response right now, this you wrote seem to be the key of the matter:
"The marriage ceremony is about the PUBLIC commitment before witnesses, family and friends, that creates a binding contract/covenant of a marriage. Those who attend bare witness to the couples words/vow of commitment, the 'witnesses' are always required for it to be legal. This creates the contract/covenant and God recognizes that.
Mal 2:14 Yet you say, "For what reason?" Because the LORD has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.''
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I didn't said it could be a private agreement:
I agree that A ceremony and vow between one man and one woman makes a marriage (Gen 5:2, Matthew 9:4)
Paul says, Let your Yes be Yes and Your No be No.
A ceremony involves witnesses.
PERSONALLY I don't consider my self a member of mostly any human institution (including all churches). I believe in obeying those who are in authority over me on a daily base, and of course, I believe God always must be first.
Does God requires ''the state'' to recognize my marriage before Him? What if I would be alien in a far away forange land? What if I was born in a society without record keeping? What if God is more concerned about 'the PUBLIC commitment before witnesses', than ''signing random papers storage in boring old buildings''. Sometimes is hard to think a little outside the box when dealing with national traditions... How do we know that this ''traditions of men are not an idol of our heart?''
If most people around you don't recognize paper bills as money, then the 'paper money' lose its power and value; they become just green peaces of paper than nobody really cares about. Same thing happens with this 'random peaces of ''official papers''. At the end, you give them the value which they will have to you. So then, how different would it be if I print my own ''peace of paper'' and give it as much value as I would give to the other state's one. Why would God hold more important ''their paper'' than 'my paper'. I don't think the verse of subjecting your self to the higher powers has to fit on this context. If so, many brothers an sisters living in dangerous territories around the world would be in spiritual troubles.
What if a make a 'PUBLIC commitment before witnesses' (ceremony and wedding and mutual agreement --and even sign my own paper if I will) and then I try very hard to live a marriage in all honesty and piety. Then God will judge me as He better fit...
(in an hypothetical scenario; I doubt He would come up with: but you was a fornicator all your life because you didn't sign the state's official paper)
As to establishing records, and obtaining benefits, I think that the time and circumstances in which I will find my self will dictate my next move. If it ever happens.
sincerely
Moises
Kat:
Moises, I think it's more of a thing as Paul said "customs to whom customs" (Rom 13:7). We follow the custom, that's just the accepted practice for society of the culture and time period in which we live. Before writing was commonplace they certainly did not have a piece of paper as proof of marriage, so they had their own way of recognizing a marriage. Different cultures had different ways they acknowledging a married couple.
I think it's actually going through those motions of satisfying whatever requirements/traditions there is, to be seen and accepted as legally married by the community you are living in. When you consider this world, that does not know God, then you really are just satisfying traditions, but I guess it's done in an honorable way as much as can be.
But I do believe God, who is actually the great designer of what civilization has been down through the ages and is now, recognizes the marriage rituals. Just my thoughts.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: octoberose on April 09, 2015, 11:54:02 PM ---I'm not trying to change the subject, but as I was reading I thought, "unconditional love". And then I think, well, is God's love truly unconditional? It's conditioned on who He is, not who we are. But do we love unconditionally? Or is that a word and a concept not in the Bible? We love with patience, kindness, we don't keep count of wrongs, and love never fails. But does that convey unconditional? Or are we, am I, using the wrong word? What do you all think?
--- End quote ---
Hi Rose,
I just wanted to bring to remembrance that our English uses one word to describe, what is essentially two different words in the greek , the concept of love.
Greek separates the love God has for the world, those who sin as a way of life, the enemies of Christ, and the love that God has for those in Christ.
Agape verses Phileo. I think a lot of people lose sight of this when they talk about love, loving your enemies, etc...
As ray said, you're not going to hug the terrorist who cut peoples head's off and invite him over for tea just because God tells us to love our enemies. No, you love them, in the sense that you don't return evil for evil and you understand that one day they will be conformed into the image of Christ. You love them in the sense that you understand that God has concluded us all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon us all. You love him in the sense that you understand it's not of him that wills nor of him that does but of God who shows mercy. You pray for them if they are persecuting you, you heap coals of fire upon their heads, etc... but you don't PHILEO them in anyway and neither does God. You don't condone their actions or tell them what they are doing is okay. You don't deny the God who's purchased you with a price! God hates those who sin as a way of life. While God's hate may very well be different then our own unjustifiable hatred, He still nonetheless expresses His deep dislike and abhorrence at sinners. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Ray's article on why does God love you, and his study on the different kinds of love in the bible, are very eye opening.
God bless,
Alex
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