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[zvezda]

Gina, looks like you know what's deep down in my heart (and Laurie's and Dave's) more than God. whatever... 

[Gina]

Matthew 24

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

I believe that the love that Jesus is talking about growing cold is assuredly NOT their love for the world, but their love of God.  They will be lovers of self, and lawlessness, and betray one another.  There is no love in the world, for heaven's sake.  We're talking about people who started out following the Lord but their love of God grows cold.   People who love God don't hate one another, but people whose love for God grows cold, DO hate God and His ways and they wind up betraying one another with verses and scripture that they say means one thing when it really means another.   They've turned away from the truth.   Not judging, I'm just stating facts here.

[Gina]

Gina, looks like you know what's deep down in my heart (and Laurie's and Dave's) more than God. whatever... 

As I see I judge.  I can of my own self do nothing.

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.  For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.   Luke 6:45

I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings that I can see things that are hidden in broad daylight, z.  God knows I don't hate any of you.

[Dave in Tenn]

Gina, since you quoted lauriellen in your post, I assumed (wrongly?...don't know) you were speaking to/about her.  To assume one who would hypothecially consider hypothetically attend a "gay wedding" is not struggling with that decision is wrong...or certainly MAY be wrong.  After all there have been statements in this thread that 'assume' anybody who would dare make such a decision is just "up and going" like it was just another Tuesday and there was nothing good on TV.

Ignore the rest of my post, if you need to.  That's just the tip of the iceberg of this "struggle".  I don't know how always to live in this world without being OF it.  Neither do you.  I assure you there are "prophets of God" who would condemn every moment of your life, every thought in your head, and every belief you hold.  They would send you to hell themselves and laugh while doing it.  If I "judge" you as one of "this generation" who complains that us pesky other people are just not doing right, then understand of my own self I can do nothing as well. 

 

[lilitalienboi16]

I was not refering to you when I made that statement. In fact, the person I had in mind I don't believe actually even said that so no need to worry. I hope the point I was making that followed that statement though is not lost on that account.

Thanks for clarifying, Alex 
As for the point you were making followed that statement

Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.

I agree with what Ray said that marriage is more physical than spiritual, from a scriptural point of view. But I don't agree with what you said "In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God." It's not the same way in God's eyes, God doesn't look on the physical appearance, men do. Even when people attend a regular wedding, they go there for various reasons, it doesn't automatically say they are okay with this marriage. Maybe some of the wedding attendants think the groom won't make a good husband, or some think the bride marries him for his money, whatever. You just don't know what go through people's minds by their physical presence. Most importantly: For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)

Hi again Zvezda,

MARRIAGE is ALL ABOUT THE PHYSICAL. It is maybe the ONE THING God only accepts IF you PHYSICALLY do what is required of you. Physically have a ceremony and physically exchange vows. You can't SPIRITUALLY MARRY your partner or SPIRITUALLY DIVORCE them when things go bad. Its all nonsense. Ray made a very strong case for this. So yes, in this regard, it is about the physical appearance. Being PHYSICALLY PRESENT in the case of marriage is very much a big deal because in the eyes of God marriage only counts if its done PHYSICALLY.

While I fully agree that God judges the matters of the heart, you have to remember that it is the SUM of God's word that is truth and that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. You can't just quote one verse and say that's it, i'm ignoring everything else I know God to have said.

I will say nothing more on this subject. I think we have exhausted what is profitable in it and I pray that everyone has benefited from it. I know I have. It has driven me to search deeper into what I believe and caused me to really evaluate myself. We are to voluntarily judge ourselves now in Gehenna fire or have our whole bodies thrown into the lake of fire at the resurrection. Let everyone be fully convinced because God is the only judge whose worthy of our obedience and reverence. We ought always to obey God rather than man.

God bless,
Alex

[Gina]

Gina, since you quoted lauriellen in your post, I assumed (wrongly?...don't know) you were speaking to/about her.  To assume one who would hypothecially consider hypothetically attend a "gay wedding" is not struggling with that decision is wrong...or certainly MAY be wrong.  After all there have been statements in this thread that 'assume' anybody who would dare make such a decision is just "up and going" like it was just another Tuesday and there was nothing good on TV.

Ignore the rest of my post, if you need to.  That's just the tip of the iceberg of this "struggle".  I don't know how always to live in this world without being OF it.  Neither do you.  I assure you there are "prophets of God" who would condemn every moment of your life.  If I "judge" you as one of "this generation" who complains that us pesky other people are just not doing right, then understand of my own self I can do nothing as well.

Dave, you know where to draw the line in this forum, but you don't know that attending a gay wedding is condoning gay marriage, something God detests?

Again, I'm not saying we're to hate these people, insult them, boycott, whatever.  But did you not read the link I posted where the young woman was raised by lesbians and felt cheated out of a father because men were not welcomed and she herself opposes gay marriage and wrote a letter, and OPEN letter, upbraiding her mother and her lesbian mother's wife?

And you're going to tell me that after reading that letter that it didn't affect you in any way? 

Do you not know that if you were to support gays and lesbians in marriage and their relationships by attending and affirming their marriage that you would be HURTING them further and denying them? 

Do you seriously expect me to believe that you can moderate this forum one day and attend a gay wedding the next without even a twinge of guilt? 

Do you not understand with the wisdom that you've been given here by Ray and by God that you would not be helping the gays and lesbians AT ALL if you did that?  On the contrary, you would be HURTING them because you would be entering in to a LIE with THEM.

Whatever I may do or have done that I should be judged for is a red herring.  Is that what this topic is  about?  Nice try though!   

If the things I say offends you, I'm sorry.

[rick]

Great thread Alex, I think we all learned something about ourselves as well as others through this thread you started. 

Perhaps the parable of Jesus might shine through to our reasoning as a result of this thread when Christ said ( take the log out of your own eye first before removing the speck in your brothers eye. )

Who was that cartoon character that said ( oh, what a terrible web we weave for ourselves ) how true that statement is, I thank God through Jesus that He will one day undo that terrible web that each and everyone of us weaves in our everyday life.

God Bless you all and in dealing with anyone be it gay people or not let us never forget the tender mercies God has show us and pass the love on. 

[Dave in Tenn]

Look, if Alex is allowed his fantasy about a hypothetical opportunity to attend a "gay wedding" then I am also.  No, I have already said (in so many words) that I don't necessarily see a 1:1 correlation between attending an event and condoning an entire lifestyle.  I'm just not that important.  And I don't place the emphasis on 'symbolism' or 'appearances' that some seem to.  I leave the 'demonstrations' to the Westboro Baptist Church folk.  If you have a different message (and I know you do) deliver it...but in person and not to the choir. 

My apologies to all the mothers of the brides who have worked and spent to assume me to be a part of the ceremony.  I didn't 'think' or 'feel' the way they wanted me too, I guess.  They wasted their money and labor on me, at any rate.  I hope SOMEBODY felt and thought 'right'.

Jesus left genuine glory to come and die as a man...and not just any old death.  If I'm to follow Him, SOMETIMES, I might have to leave my illusory high-horse and minister to sinners.  God has THEM where He wants them, too...with an eye towards what is NOT YET, as though it were.  Yes, I know what's next--but DAVE, attending the wedding is not 'ministering', it's endorsing!  Maybe yes...maybe no.  That's for me to decide when and if a decision needs to be made.  All my plans are folly, anyway.  I'll do what He says I will do.  And so will you.  And then our works are judged, whether they be good works or bad works.  Wisdom is justified of her children.  Good is refined...bad is removed.

I'll tack this on.  Thirty or forty years ago, the "gay lifestyle" was often marked by anonymous sex with multiple partners.  To many, that's what being "gay" meant...even among gays.  Then came HIV and a massive rethinking.  These days, the visible 'gay agenda' is seeking the right to be married.  Wow. 

Wood and Hay are better than stubble, even though they all burn.  What does that tell me (besides this world really IS upside-down)?  It tells me God is able to judge the world rightly even in this wicked age.  That builds my faith for a future when He reigns.

And then this:  I have never claimed to be 'worthy' of helping to moderate this web-forum.  Indeed, I started out my time at it confessing my unworthiness.  My opinion hasn't changed.  I serve at Dennis' pleasure...you know, the Dennis who said you posted wise words.  We'll straighten this out, me and him.       

       

[lauriellen]

Dave, you are doing a great job and I highly respect your opinion. Your Godly wisdom & humble spirit are very evident in your words and I appreciate the job you are doing.

[Gina]

Look, if Alex is allowed his fantasy about a hypothetical opportunity to attend a "gay wedding" then I am also.  No, I have already said (in so many words) that I don't necessarily see a 1:1 correlation between attending an event and condoning an entire lifestyle.  I'm just not that important.  And I don't place the emphasis on 'symbolism' or 'appearances' that some seem to.  I leave the 'demonstrations' to the Westboro Baptist Church folk.  If you have a different message (and I know you do) deliver it...but in person and not to the choir. 

My apologies to all the mothers of the brides who have worked and spent to assume me to be a part of the ceremony.  I didn't 'think' or 'feel' the way they wanted me too, I guess.  They wasted their money and labor on me, at any rate.  I hope SOMEBODY felt and thought 'right'.

Jesus left genuine glory to come and die as a man...and not just any old death.  If I'm to follow Him, SOMETIMES, I might have to leave my illusory high-horse and minister to sinners.  God has THEM where He wants them, too...with an eye towards what is NOT YET, as though it were.  Yes, I know what's next--but DAVE, attending the wedding is not 'ministering', it's endorsing!  Maybe yes...maybe no.  That's for me to decide when and if a decision needs to be made.  All my plans are folly, anyway.  I'll do what He says I will do.  And so will you.  And then our works are judged, whether they be good works or bad works.  Wisdom is justified of her children.  Good is refined...bad is removed.

I'll tack this on.  Thirty or forty years ago, the "gay lifestyle" was often marked by anonymous sex with multiple partners.  To many, that's what being "gay" meant...even among gays.  Then came HIV and a massive rethinking.  These days, the visible 'gay agenda' is seeking the right to be married.  Wow. 

Wood and Hay are better than stubble, even though they all burn.  What does that tell me (besides this world really IS upside-down)?  It tells me God is able to judge the world rightly even in this wicked age.  That builds my faith for a future when He reigns.

And then this:  I have never claimed to be 'worthy' of helping to moderate this web-forum.  Indeed, I started out my time at it confessing my unworthiness.  My opinion hasn't changed.  I serve at Dennis' pleasure...you know, the Dennis who said you posted wise words.  We'll straighten this out, me and him.       

     

Dave,

I appreciate that you care about the homosexual community but ministering to them and attending weddings are two entirely different things.  I wouldn't condemn someone who attended a wedding, but please, please, leave Westboro Baptist Church out of this.  You seem to be so worried that you're going to offend a group of people going in the wrong direction, that you'd turn on those who stand up for what they know is right.  No one here is saying to picket them.  Give me a break. 

But if gays are struggling with their sin, why would you think it okay to be in fellowship with them in that way, even if all this is hypothetical?  Aren't you sending them mixed messages?  I think it's admirable that you care, but I just think when you care so much that you can't say no, gracefully, to a wedding invitation, well, you know what I mean.

I'll leave it at this and go on my way.  This man ministers to the gay community.  Maybe it will be of some help: 

https://youtu.be/EahmmQzZWXA  (Part 1)

https://youtu.be/WtbI5YH34-0 (Part 2)


(I realize that minister does believe in "free-will" and that there is a "hell," but he's where God has him at  present, as you say, and he obviously has compassion, even if he is a little off track in regards to those two things.  If you could possibly overlook that for the sake of this thread, I'd appreciate it.   Thanks.  Goodnight all. )

[Mike Gagne]

Look, if Alex is allowed his fantasy about a hypothetical opportunity to attend a "gay wedding" then I am also.  No, I have already said (in so many words) that I don't necessarily see a 1:1 correlation between attending an event and condoning an entire lifestyle.  I'm just not that important.  And I don't place the emphasis on 'symbolism' or 'appearances' that some seem to.  I leave the 'demonstrations' to the Westboro Baptist Church folk.  If you have a different message (and I know you do) deliver it...but in person and not to the choir. 

My apologies to all the mothers of the brides who have worked and spent to assume me to be a part of the ceremony.  I didn't 'think' or 'feel' the way they wanted me too, I guess.  They wasted their money and labor on me, at any rate.  I hope SOMEBODY felt and thought 'right'.

Jesus left genuine glory to come and die as a man...and not just any old death.  If I'm to follow Him, SOMETIMES, I might have to leave my illusory high-horse and minister to sinners.  God has THEM where He wants them, too...with an eye towards what is NOT YET, as though it were.  Yes, I know what's next--but DAVE, attending the wedding is not 'ministering', it's endorsing!  Maybe yes...maybe no.  That's for me to decide when and if a decision needs to be made.  All my plans are folly, anyway.  I'll do what He says I will do.  And so will you.  And then our works are judged, whether they be good works or bad works.  Wisdom is justified of her children.  Good is refined...bad is removed.

I'll tack this on.  Thirty or forty years ago, the "gay lifestyle" was often marked by anonymous sex with multiple partners.  To many, that's what being "gay" meant...even among gays.  Then came HIV and a massive rethinking.  These days, the visible 'gay agenda' is seeking the right to be married.  Wow. 

Wood and Hay are better than stubble, even though they all burn.  What does that tell me (besides this world really IS upside-down)?  It tells me God is able to judge the world rightly even in this wicked age.  That builds my faith for a future when He reigns.

And then this:  I have never claimed to be 'worthy' of helping to moderate this web-forum.  Indeed, I started out my time at it confessing my unworthiness.  My opinion hasn't changed.  I serve at Dennis' pleasure...you know, the Dennis who said you posted wise words.  We'll straighten this out, me and him.       

       

Well said Dave, I agree totally with your comment... When the time comes the wood ,hay and stubble will be burned away and the gold and silver will be made more pure! Thats just the way it will be... 

R.P.J

[octoberose]

I have spent the weekend taking care of my 14 mo. old twin grandsons while my daughter and SIL have a weekend together and  am flying home in the early morning. In between watching the boys I've been reading, writing and thinking about this post.
As you know this is not much of a hypothetical for me. Please know, I love my son just the way he is right now. I'm not waiting for something to change to fully love him as a mother should. We are still supporting him financially ( probably more then we should) but since we finished paying tuition he has stopped communicating with us. It's breaking my heart- I write him and send him things but for the first time in his life he's completely silent. 
 The young men I have  known who are Christ followers and homosexual in their past relationships- one on this forum and one on another- have been kind, thoughtful, and very
considerate to me because of my son and my sadness. I realized that it wasn't that I wanted Nathan to stop being 'gay', its that I hoped that he  would know Christ  the way these brothers do. I only know a little about their current struggle but I know they do struggle and I know they love the Lord and have shown great maturity.  They really have to hunger for the bread of life and not what the world tells them they can have,  and I have seen that in them.  I truly believe God will reward them greatly for seeking Him and denying self.
 What struck a chord with me is that the days before Alex posted I told God I was betting everything on Him and what I believe He requires. Because you see, if I called up Nathan and said, " your dad and I have had a change of heart and we now believe who you want to be with is just fine with us and we are sorry for expressing anything other than full acceptance in your lifestyle" - well, if we did that I'm pretty sure he would be back in our lives pretty quickly. But I cannot do that because my child is not my God, my God is my God. If I could believe any other way I would do it, but I cannot. ( Do not misunderstand me- our door has always been open to him )
Gina, I was hoping you would weigh in. You stated what we both believe with incredible  thoughtfulness and wisdom and I am very grateful.  One day we shall be restored with our children fully and He will be all in all. That is the best news I can possibly imagine. They will be healed of their afflictions and we shall be healed of ours. What a glory day that will truly be!
 I don't know what else to say other than this forum is important to me. I came here over 5 years ago not knowing anything. You taught me everything . Ray listened to me despite my pretty foolish questions. My life was utterly changed because some of you took the time and all the effort to tell the true gospel of Christ. And that has made all the difference.
 

[santgem]

sometimes we need to understand all the context of the Chapters and not to chop-chop it and give another meanings.


When reading Scriptures you have to digest the totality of the thought, getting one line does not explain the whole chapter. That's  what i learned  and i thank Ray for that.

Suppose i get the line "If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning"

Then it will suggest that if you attend gay wedding and you know that is not right then you sinned;

Or, if you are believers of Christ and you know that marrying same sex is not right and still you do it then again you sinned.



What i am saying is that the verse below when taken chop-chop will contradict each.

"Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right"

VS

If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning


Please read the essence of this Chapter, there are hidden meanings on this chapter not only eating and drinking..........For those offended my apologies.

For clarification only.

[whyte baer]

I have been reading BT since around 2001. I have had a lot of old doctrine that I once believed go to the wayside.
I started writing a book about how everyone should not make assumptions, but I erased it. If I sound a little angry or sarcastic, I sincerely apologise. I am not trying to make waves, but just give you a different angle from someone who is on both sides of this ....So here are my questions about going to a "gay marriage":

1. How about if it was someone who was divorced? ( not 'biblical')
        Divorced two or three times?
2. How about if it was a couple who had "lived together" before they go married?
3. How about the guy is 55 and the girl is 21?

4. Why do people assume that all gay people are like those idiots on the street during their parades?
5. Why do people assume all gays are just doing it for sex? (Sex has as much importance in a gay relationship as a straight one. You know,"wow!" at first, then "mmm, let's wait until next weekend",
  then, "has it really been 2 months?"
6. Why is it assumed all gays are heathens that need to be changed?
7. Do you think all gay people approve of "gay marriage"?
8. Do you believe "God hates fags"?

The reality of the average God believing 'gay' person is that they spend most of their lives having to hide the truth from everyone they love, and hate and loath themselves for something they sincerely want to NOT BE, but after a few years comes the sad realization that it's not going to go away.
They want to be normal so badly, they marry the opposite sex to keep everyone from knowing their secret.
They then have a few kids, then realize they can't hide how they are inside.Then the destruction  begins...
Some kill themselves because they can't deal with their parents, or spouses, or believe that God cares at all.

Why do I know this?
I have spent 20 years of my life trying to be straight. I prayed, I went to counseling (Christian and secular)
 prayed on my knees and on my face for HOURS.
Acts 2:1
If we can't fellowship with believers, where do we go?

I sincerely love you all.
Nita, aka whyte baer


P.s. No pagan holidays celebrated here....

[lurquer]

You know, Nita, all of us "need to be changed" not just homosexuals.  But a large force in that "change" is in first acknowledging things for what they are.  Sin must first be called sin before it can be dealt with (remember the purpose of the Law? "that I would not have known sin..")

There are no such things as "gays".  There are only people--all born sinners (all of us)--who have different propensities for sin.  Your 'unnatural desire' becomes sin when acted upon.  As Jesus said, you can even "lust in your heart".  That too is sin.  But acting on it is worse. Because now you've entangled your OWN body, and another's in sin which will cause a permanent human malfunction (in this life). 

A lot of our cultural problems (which obviously stain us believers) result from people refusing to call things what they are.  This is an especially acute sickness in the U.S.  We're all too busy trying to excuse our individual and collective sins to see where God may be pointing a way out.  There will be a consequence for this.  It will not be pleasant.  You may continue to struggle with the sin of homosexual thoughts and behaviors, but you will never be free of them until you first learn to hate the sin... (Ray said that).  And calling it what it is is the first step.  It is not "gayness" (a perfectly good word which has been permanently corrupted), it is sin.  The behavior that results--homosexual fornication--is particularly loathsome.  That is why so many homosexuals loathe themselves.

God can and will give us ALL repentance, AND cleansing, in due time.  But the process will always be the same...acknowledgement of sin, a loathing of the sin, and then freedom from and cleansing of. SO many are still stuck in the acknowledgement phase that all of society is now lost in a negative feedback loop---circling the drain...awaiting God's judgement to fall.  And all the while calling it a "blessing".

That is the essence of the problem of "gay marriage".  True followers of Christ should be the first to stand up and say, "it is sin, and we will have no part of it".  Instead, most excuse it with "judge not!" as a cover for their own guilt in not first judging ourselves.

No, Nita, God does not "hate fags".  But "fags" will not be in the Kingdom of God.  Neither will "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, [who] shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."  (Rev 21:eight). 

I may be among those "outside the gates" in the Lake of Fire, if that is God's intent, but at least I will understand why I am there.

[Mike Gagne]

What if ? what if?  This whole post is based on foolishness, on some assumption. Its not about them being gay or there sin. Its about your lake of fire, its about crucifying yourself. Does it matter if their gay? You are surrounded by sinners, murders and you probably have friends who are legally married and one of that couple could be having a gay relationship on the side, would you know?  Should you just hide in your home and lock the doors? Good luck with that. I thought you all read LRays sites? If so look in your heart and pray to God to kill of the carnal man in you and burn out all the junk in your heart so when the time comes you will be able to judge right. What I see in this post is babylon. Its very disappointing to see those who think they are the elect to discuss four pages on WHAT IFS.....  Where is the wisdom in that?

Have a wonderful day....  R.P.J

[Gina]

What if ? what if?  This whole post is based on foolishness, on some assumption. Its not about them being gay or there sin. Its about your lake of fire, its about crucifying yourself. Does it matter if their gay? You are surrounded by sinners, murders and you probably have friends who are legally married and one of that couple could be having a gay relationship on the side, would you know?  Should you just hide in your home and lock the doors? Good luck with that. I thought you all read LRays sites? If so look in your heart and pray to God to kill of the carnal man in you and burn out all the junk in your heart so when the time comes you will be able to judge right. What I see in this post is babylon. Its very disappointing to see those who think they are the elect to discuss four pages on WHAT IFS.....  Where is the wisdom in that?

Have a wonderful day....  R.P.J

Michael,

I see the hand of God in this thread in certain places.  You  meant to tell me that you don't see the hand of God in this thread, Michael?  Have another look, and don't be too quick to judge.  Don't mistake Bible-truths for Westboro Baptist Church, the way some have done for fear that they're going to offend someone who is struggling as if that someone is going to go off and kill themselves.  Trust me!  They are already killing themselves.    But you think that when Jesus drove the demons out of people, He whispered softly in their ear as He knelt down on one knee with eyes of blue peering ever so gently into the possessed.   If you think that's how Jesus worked to rid people of their demons, then why are you speaking to people in the manner you are here? It looks to me like you'd rather hide yourself from the "shame" of this discussion.  Maybe it's you who needs to burn the carnality out of your heart.  Nobody here is hiding themselves because someone is overtaken by a guilty conscience put on them by people who can't control their own desires.  And nobody is going to go out and murder anyone for those desires.  Just cool your jets.  If it makes you feel better, I live next door to a registered sex offender, and for all I know, he was wrongfully accused.  I don't lock my door.  I pray for him.  I know he's had a hard life and paid for his crime over and over and over again.  A harder life than a lot of gays.  So don't accuse me of being hardhearted.  You won't find many gays not being able to land a job or find a place to live, or have the cops come to their door to make sure they aren't breaking some law.  So just back off, Michael, because nobody here has said that God hates fags.  Okay?

Thanks

[lauriellen]

There is nothing I detest more than arrogance and self=righteousness as if some of us here are so smart and strong and were able to acknowledge and repent of our sins all on our own.....have we forgotten that it is GOD Himself who binds people in sin, who blinds them to the truth and does NOT give a person a heart or strength to repent  UNTIL the appointed time? God must have a purpose for the existence of gays or they would have already repented! I do believe the act is a sin BECAUSE there are very specific scriptures that state that it is, however, I see no such scripture stating that ATTENDING a wedding ceremony for ANY sinner is a sin. God may have a specific reason for one to attend, such as He may have a person that He wants you to witness to that may also be attending. Who knows what God is doing? There is enough pain, exclusion and oppression in this world without adding to it. I for one will do my best, as God directs me and enables me, to be a light and shine the love of God, AS Christ was our example. Jesus did not just HAPPEN to bump into sinners....it is clear to ME that He actively SOUGHT THEM OUT, so I am assuming that He would have to GO where they were. You don't light a lamp and hide it UNDER a blanket.....Jesus prayed that His elect would NOT be taken out of this world. He said they would be the SALT AND LIGHT of the world.....not withdraw themselves completely......There are so many examples in the bible of people God sent right into the midst of sinful society for a purpose. Do we think God's arm is so short that He can not keep His elect from stumbling in the midst of a sinful society? Jesus was humble in spirit, full of compassion and MOST of His wrath seemed to me to be directed at RELIGIOUS HYPOCRITES, not sinners.

[Gina]

There is nothing I detest more than arrogance and self=righteousness as if some of us here are so smart and strong and were able to acknowledge and repent of our sins all on our own.....have we forgotten that it is GOD Himself who binds people in sin, who blinds them to the truth and does NOT give a person a heart or strength to repent  UNTIL the appointed time? God must have a purpose for the existence of gays or they would have already repented! I do believe the act is a sin BECAUSE there are very specific scriptures that state that it is, however, I see no such scripture stating that ATTENDING a wedding ceremony for ANY sinner is a sin. God may have a specific reason for one to attend, such as He may have a person that He wants you to witness to that may also be attending. Who knows what God is doing? There is enough pain, exclusion and oppression in this world without adding to it. I for one will do my best, as God directs me and enables me, to be a light and shine the love of God, AS Christ was our example. Jesus did not just HAPPEN to bump into sinners....it is clear to ME that He actively SOUGHT THEM OUT, so I am assuming that He would have to GO where they were. You don't light a lamp and hide it UNDER a blanket.....Jesus prayed that His elect would NOT be taken out of this world. He said they would be the SALT AND LIGHT of the world.....not withdraw themselves completely......There are so many examples in the bible of people God sent right into the midst of sinful society for a purpose. Do we think God's arm is so short that He can not keep His elect from stumbling in the midst of a sinful society? Jesus was humble in spirit, full of compassion and MOST of His wrath seemed to me to be directed at RELIGIOUS HYPOCRITES, not sinners.

Yes, Jesus certainly did give it to the religious hypocrites.  You got that right.  But the fact of the matter is, we don't know who God's elect are.  I don't claim to be an elect.  I could be in the future, but as of now, I'm acutely AWARE of my inability to interact with people in certain situations without stumbling. 

I remember going to visit my daughter in Santa Cruz.  I drove 8 hours to go see her after having not seen her for about 4 years.  She asked me to come up there, and I was really glad to go.  And I get there and the first thing she does is open the door to her bedroom where her girlfriend was, laying on queensized mattress on the floor of my daughter's bedroom still groggy from the night before and I said, Hello.  She barely looked at me.  I didn't want to simply assume that just because there was another woman in her bed that that automatically meant my daughter was gay, but I was in denial. 

Later, I took them both out for lunch, and I asked Lauren what her girlfriend wanted for lunch, but her girlfriend didn't want anything.  I was kind to both of them.  I sat there talking with my daughter and being friendly with both of them at the restaurant while her girlfriend sat in the seat next to me HIDING HERSELF behind the restaurant menu.  Wouldn't say a word to me.  Barely lifted her voice.

Later on, Lauren made dinner for me and her girlfriend.  Same thing.  Wouldn't smile, barely spoke to me.

Then Lauren went to change her shirt and it said:  "SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE."   And she had her long hair covering over the words, but I could see them.  I though she was just someone who was supporting gay marriage.  It was only Lauren and I and sat there smoking cigarettes on their back porch, and I noticed she was trying really hard to cover up the words of the T-shirt.    I'm sure I was in shock because I was in such denial.  But she had no idea how I felt.  So, we talked about her adoption and her adoptive parents and this and that, and when I left the next day, I brought her and her girlfriend a gift card from Trader Joe's and Lauren hugged me really hard and said, "You're welcome here anytime!" 

When I got back home, I texted her and asked her if she and her girlfriend would like to visit me for thankgsgiving dinner for a little bite to eat if they had the time.  No pressure.  No response.  Texted her again.  No response. 

We never talked about the fact that she was involved in a gay relationship.  I was willing to have her in my home.  But looking back, I can clearly see that God had different plans.  God doesn't want her in my home.  Believe me, I would have totally accepted her and her girlfriend.  That's how WEAK I was.  God said, No!

And let me tell you, those weren't the only times I've spoken to my daughter or done kind things for her, or invited her to my home, both her and her girlfriend, but Lauren declines, just like Octoberose's son declines.  I would have totally accepted her and her girlfriend but God keeps her away from me.  I know why this is happening.  What fellowship does light have with darkness.  Last year, I wished her happy birthday by email, and asked to see some updated pictures.  She had a ring on her finger and I asked, jokingly, if there was nice man in her life.  And she laughed it off and said, Well, I've been dating my girlfriend for four years so no.  And I said, Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, well, I have to get back to work now.  Have  a nice day.  That's all I said, and she goes, THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR.  NOW YOU'RE BEING SHORT WITH ME.    MY MOTHER HAS TOTALLY ACCEPTED ME AND MY GIRLFRIEND.  I'VE BEEN THIS WAY MY WHOLE LIFE.  (But I remember when she was crushing on boys and dating them too.  That was before her girlfriend laid a kiss on her and she got indoctrinated.)

I said, Oh, I'm not offended.  It takes a lot to offend me.  And she said, WELL I'M OFFENDED THAT YOU'RE SORRY OVER WHO I LOVE.  GET OVER IT!  I'M NOT HURTING YOU!  I CAN'T BELIEVE WE'RE EVEN HAVING THIS DISCUSSION!  DON'T COME INQUIRING ABOUT MY LIFE!

I thought to myself, yeah, you love her about as much as the man in the moon, and I then I said, Well, I just meant that I"m sorry you're involved with a woman seeing how they're not the most kindhearted creatures in the world.  ( I meant that seriously.  I saw how I was going the same route as her adoptive mother, and God was saying to me You need to grow a pair, Gina.  You are spineless and desperate for approval from your daughter and how will you respond to Me when I open your daughter's eyes?!)

And we haven't spoken since.  Not because I haven't wanted to.  She cut herself off from me or God cut her off -- however you want to look at it.  I didn't say anything wrong.  Her girlfriend is not a kindhearted person at all, and I didn't make her what she is.  She is where she is not by anything I've done on my part.  I have ALWAYS been available to my daughter.  ALWAYS given her my address and my numbers (work and home) and nothing.  So, Laurie, you don't know what you're talking about.  But I forgive you.

[lurquer]

Lauriellen, "me thinks thou dost protest too much"..  Have you found yourself associating a little too much with those "of the world"?  Why do you believe it's your mission to 'cleanse the temple'?  Very few have been strong enough to do that and still "remain unspotted from the world"...  Gina brought out a very good point. Bad company does indeed corrupt good manners.  And as I tell my kids, "choose your friends (wisely), or they'll choose you".

So why be so adamant about the "gay weddings"?--- I mean if you're really up to it, there's a half a million strip clubs, bordellos, swinger parties and the like just full of sinners who need Jesus.  Shouldn't we be the SALT and LIGHT in there as well?