> General Discussions
All from Adam and Noah?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: indianabob on April 29, 2015, 08:16:11 PM ---Thanks for all the comments.
So here then is the question that my kids and I have.
Did God create a tribe of humans all at once, both male and female, from the red earth?
Similar I suppose to creating a herd of adult Elk to graze on the hillside?
Is it important to our understanding of God's ways of carrying out his plan that there needed to be a large herd of humans from which to choose the ones that would receive the "spirit" in man that made man able to wonder where they came from and to seek an answer?
Did God need to begin with a large tribe of humans in order to find one to carry the genetic strain into the future leading to a savior of all, including those who had been in the original tribe of multiple individuals?
This idea is quite strange to me, and I'm in a serious quandary over the very thought.
--- End quote ---
Hi Bob,
As Paul told the greeks:
Acts 17:25
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring [Race / Kindred].
All of the human race is made of that same one blood. Adam was not different in that regard.
What made Adam unique was his ability to 'till the soil.' This included dressing the garden. He was a farmer. It appears from what little we can glimpse in genesis that the majority of the human race was still only "hunters." These were the people cain interacted with outside and feared. They were also the people from which Cain took his wife from. Adam was capable of writing since he was able to write his genealogy down which Moses used to write that part of genesis with. Writing may have been something unique that God introduced to adam and his descendants but this is purely speculation in that regard.
Jesus Is the savior of mankind and since all men share that same 'one blood,' whether you are physically and literally a descendant of Adam means nothing. The jews could not get past this and it was a source of contention and great vanity. The law is spiritual and those that worship God must worship Him in spirit and truth! Circumcision of the heart makes you apart of the Israel of God and NOT circumcision of the flesh.
Hope this helps.
God bless,
Alex
John from Kentucky:
Or, it could be that the creation story in Genesis is a parable, a story, an allegory, not literally true, but filled with immense spiritual truths.
Jesus didn't just start teaching in parables in the New Testament.
That would explain a snake walking on its hind legs talking to a woman and the woman talking back to him.
That would explain two trees. One whose fruit brought death. The other tree that brought age abiding life, and why the two dummies did not eat from that tree first.
Why the Cherubim, associated with the throne of God, guarded this tree, and a flaming sword turning every which way also guarded this tree.
Symbolism? Maybe not literally true? But full of deep spiritual truths as revealed by the Spirit of God.
Adam is the Hebrew name for mankind, humanity. Eve is the mother of all living. Symbols, not literal.
Also, remember that the Gospel was preached to Abraham---namely that in you all the nations would be blessed. All saved. No one left out. Good news indeed. Read Galatians 3:8.
Later we learn that neither Abraham or Isaac are that important. That the One Seed is Jesus, God Almighty, Who will save all the nations. Read Galatians 3:16.
And if Jesus is in us, then We are the heirs of the promise of salvation. Galatians 3:29
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on April 29, 2015, 08:26:53 PM ---
Hi Rose,
Initially when I contemplated this idea it did seem strange but everything fits very well together. All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer). It also helps explain why the Jews were so meticulous about their genealogies, keeping them pure, and recording their history. Why they also had such disdain for the gentiles, because they could literally trace their bloodline back to God through adam and the gentiles could not.
--- End quote ---
Alex, while I appreciate the rest of your post, I have an issue with this bolded bit. If you mean they "could not" because they did not (for whatever reason) keep such records...I don't have any major issue with that. If you mean they "could not" because they WERE NOT, then I do. Spend some time thinking about a genealogy--any genealogy--and how they work. They only trace back through a relatively small selection of 'family'. In the case of the genealogies in scripture, they tend to trace back only through ONE LINE. Even when they 'diverge' (as they do below with the three sons of Noah), they eventually peter out and return to the one line.
Here's the genealogy in Genesis up to Noah and his sons.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Gen 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
Gen 5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Gen 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen 5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Among those named, there is not a single Jew yet. And there are many NOT named. Are they "gentiles"? Are their descendants Gentiles? Can not the other un-named 'begatted sons and daughters" also trace their lineage back--at least to the point where they diverged? Who are the mothers, and what is THEIR lineage? We just don't know. CAIN apparently took a wife from someone outside his lineage.
The same apples to the other "updated" genealogies.
Here's what immediately follows this "genealogy".
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
So Cain was not alone in going outside the "family" for mates.
And so far, even Abraham hasn't arrived.
Trace your own roots back 14 generations, if you can. You may can get it back to one couple. But you have to go FORWARD from there to include all your 14th cousins 12 times removed from half-sisters of your great-great-great grand-aunt's second marriage to the adopted son of the travelling salesman.
I simply don't believe in this "pure-bloodline" concept.
Bob, I wish I could help you with your perplexity. All I can tell you is--I'm not perplexed. I might be WRONG, but I'm not perplexed.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on April 29, 2015, 09:08:28 PM ---Or, it could be that the creation story in Genesis is a parable, a story, an allegory, not literally true, but filled with immense spiritual truths.
Jesus didn't just start teaching in parables in the New Testament.
That would explain a snake walking on its hind legs talking to a woman and the woman talking back to him.
That would explain two trees. One whose fruit brought death. The other tree that brought age abiding life, and why the two dummies did not eat from that tree first.
Why the Cherubim, associated with the throne of God, guarded this tree, and a flaming sword turning every which way also guarded this tree.
Symbolism? Maybe not literally true? But full of deep spiritual truths as revealed by the Spirit of God.
Adam is the Hebrew name for mankind, humanity. Eve is the mother of all living. Symbols, not literal.
Also, remember that the Gospel was preached to Abraham---namely that in you all the nations would be blessed. All saved. No one left out. Good news indeed. Read Galatians 3:8.
Later we learn that neither Abraham or Isaac are that important. That the One Seed is Jesus, God Almighty, Who will save all the nations. Read Galatians 3:16.
And if Jesus is in us, then We are the heirs of the promise of salvation. Galatians 3:29
--- End quote ---
Hi John,
I think the majority of us understand that the old testament, and indeed all of scripture, has spiritual application and importance to us beyond the literal. This doesn't change the fact that these things literally happened first.
A burning talking bush is somehow more believable to you than a talking serpent?
Paul says all these things HAPPENED unto THEM. Happened. His words by inspiration of God. Paul speaks of adam and eve as actual people and goes on to discern spiritual truth regarding Christ and His church.
Paul also tells us that what is first is not the spiritual (parabolic truths) but the natural (those literal stories) and THEN that which is spiritual.
Denying Adam and Eve's literal historical existence as recorded seems to me to create many scriptural problems.
I suppose we agree to disagree on this issue. That isn't to say I disagree with you about the spiritual truths and their importance. Simply that I see a natural story there first that actually happened but in such a way that with the spirit of God greater and more important spiritual insight are revealed. The spiritual truths are always more important than the literal so I don't want anyone thinking I'm denying that.
Yes eve is the mother of all living because from her would eventually come our God born of a virgin to take away the sins of the world and reconcile humanity to Himself. Isn't this also another way to interpret her as the mother of all living?
God bless,
Alex
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on April 29, 2015, 09:26:20 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on April 29, 2015, 08:26:53 PM ---
Hi Rose,
Initially when I contemplated this idea it did seem strange but everything fits very well together. All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer). It also helps explain why the Jews were so meticulous about their genealogies, keeping them pure, and recording their history. Why they also had such disdain for the gentiles, because they could literally trace their bloodline back to God through adam and the gentiles could not.
--- End quote ---
Alex, while I appreciate the rest of your post, I have an issue with this bolded bit. If you mean they "could not" because they did not (for whatever reason) keep such records...I don't have any major issue with that. If you mean they "could not" because they WERE NOT, then I do. Spend some time thinking about a genealogy--any genealogy--and how they work. They only trace back through a relatively small selection of 'family'. In the case of the genealogies in scripture, they tend to trace back only through ONE LINE. Even when they 'diverge' (as they do below with the three sons of Noah), they eventually peter out and return to the one line.
Here's the genealogy in Genesis up to Noah and his sons.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Gen 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
Gen 5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Gen 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen 5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Among those named, there is not a single Jew yet. And there are many NOT named. Are they "gentiles"? Are their descendants Gentiles? Can not the other un-named 'begatted sons and daughters" also trace their lineage back--at least to the point where they diverged? Who are the mothers, and what is THEIR lineage? We just don't know. CAIN apparently took a wife from someone outside his lineage.
The same apples to the other "updated" genealogies.
Here's what immediately follows this "genealogy".
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
So Cain was not alone in going outside the "family" for mates.
And so far, even Abraham hasn't arrived.
Trace your own roots back 14 generations, if you can. You may can get it back to one couple. But you have to go FORWARD from there to include all your 14th cousins 12 times removed from half-sisters of your great-great-great grand-aunt's second marriage to the adopted son of the travelling salesman.
I simply don't believe in this "pure-bloodline" concept.
Bob, I wish I could help you with your perplexity. All I can tell you is--I'm not perplexed. I might be WRONG, but I'm not perplexed.
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
Its as you said in the first line. I simply did not desire to flesh out the intricacies and details that my perspective would require so I took a blanket approach.
Cain is a perfect example of what you just mentioned. For whatever reason, these other people (who from scripture are referred to as gentile nations when the Jews come about) either did not keep details of their lineage if they truly were decedent's of adam or these details where lost over time.
The main point is that Adam was not the first human on this planet and there were already people outside the garden whom cain feared and eventually married into. This is most likely what occurred with Adam's children too as they increased and spread across the earth. How many decedents of Adam did marry with those outside the garden, how many people were outside the garden during adam's formation etc... are questions I don't think we will ever answer In this lifetime.
Hope I'm making sense.
God bless,
Alex
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