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Author Topic: All from Adam and Noah?  (Read 20014 times)

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zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2015, 12:36:49 PM »

All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer).
I am not so sure about Adam being the first farmer, humans started farming about 12,000 years ago (10,000 BC). It seems that there were farmers long before Adam, do some research on history of agriculture if you like.

Hi Zvezda,

I don't have a problem with the dating being off. Its not off very much. I understand the dating techniques used in science, I am a cellular biologist by study, and we humans aren't without error in our study of the past. Our techniques are subject to their own limitations as well as human error. A perfect example of this is the current Egyptian chronology and the fierce debate that is currently going on to revise it. When you look this far back into the past, with nothing but fragments of it remaining, the image you get is quiet murky and unclear. Mistakes are made. What I do trust without a doubt is God and His timeline.

God bless,
Alex

I agree Alex that dating issues are a problem that as of now are mostly unresolved.

It reminds me of those christains who are still in babylon, when I talked to them about the fossil evidence that Adam was not the first human, they said the similar reasons (dating methods are not reliable, humans aren't without error, etc) to reject all the researches and deny there were people before Adam.

There's no verse that says Adam was the first farmer, is there? Genesis 2:5 only says there was not a man to till the ground, it doesn't say Adam was the first man to till the ground. I don't think it contradicts God's words even if there were farmers long before Adam. The bible doesn't tell us a lot about what happened before Adam. All I said in my previous post was that if you like you can do some research, then you can decide if you still think Adam was the first farmer.
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lurquer

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2015, 01:11:01 AM »



There's no verse that says Adam was the first farmer, is there? Genesis 2:5 only says there was not a man to till the ground, it doesn't say Adam was the first man to till the ground. I don't think it contradicts God's words even if there were farmers long before Adam.

Hmmm...Zvezda makes a good point. Indeed, you have to pay attention to all the words!
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lurquer

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2015, 01:37:41 AM »


In Gen. 1:26-27 "created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them," this is the first creation of human beings. Not as a herd, Bob, but a single man and woman that God started with, probably many thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Possibly similar to what scientist say, where they gradually spread out across the world.

Then at the time appointed God "formed" Adam (Gen 2:7), this was the beginning of His plan of salvation for mankind, through that lineage.

I know we talked about having 'different ancestors' before, but still, I'm not at all clear on this question... What do you mean when you say "God formed" Adam?  If he was physically (biologically) a unique creature (not a mixing and replication of existing genes via sexual reproduction), then he had no ancestry--no lineage--"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God".

Like the King of Salem.

So two different creations of "man", and two different lineages...

Or, did you mean that "Adam" was 'formed, i.e., born/begotten/descended' from the earlier race?  In which case, what did God actually DO? (A Damascus road experience?)

The former: Two separate Creations, unrelated.  The latter: One Creation; shared ancestry; God intervenes. 

I was thinking you subscribed to the former. (?)
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2015, 11:06:56 AM »

All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer).
I am not so sure about Adam being the first farmer, humans started farming about 12,000 years ago (10,000 BC). It seems that there were farmers long before Adam, do some research on history of agriculture if you like.

Hi Zvezda,

I don't have a problem with the dating being off. Its not off very much. I understand the dating techniques used in science, I am a cellular biologist by study, and we humans aren't without error in our study of the past. Our techniques are subject to their own limitations as well as human error. A perfect example of this is the current Egyptian chronology and the fierce debate that is currently going on to revise it. When you look this far back into the past, with nothing but fragments of it remaining, the image you get is quiet murky and unclear. Mistakes are made. What I do trust without a doubt is God and His timeline.

God bless,
Alex

I agree Alex that dating issues are a problem that as of now are mostly unresolved.

It reminds me of those christains who are still in babylon, when I talked to them about the fossil evidence that Adam was not the first human, they said the similar reasons (dating methods are not reliable, humans aren't without error, etc) to reject all the researches and deny there were people before Adam.

There's no verse that says Adam was the first farmer, is there? Genesis 2:5 only says there was not a man to till the ground, it doesn't say Adam was the first man to till the ground. I don't think it contradicts God's words even if there were farmers long before Adam. The bible doesn't tell us a lot about what happened before Adam. All I said in my previous post was that if you like you can do some research, then you can decide if you still think Adam was the first farmer.

Hi Zevda,

I'm currently on my phone. Just moved into my new apartment in virginia and I am without internet or computer so please forgive me for the spelling errors or brevity of post.

You say that adam wasn't the first farmer only that there was "no man to till the soil." Your argument does not follow the logic though. The word man is the generic word for humanity. If there is no humanity during the time adam was formed who coild "till the soil" and God creates him to do just that as well as  "dress and keep" the garden then it follows by reason that Adam was that first human who could. You mean to tell methat there is in fact plebty of tilling the soil before adan was forned going on and that God just didn't notice it? Maybe he lied? So yes, by If A then B elementary logics, Adam was the first man to tilll the soil, dress and keep the garden--the first farmer. God has introduced agriculture to the planet and if you know scripture, you know how fond God is of agricultural analogies and parables.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 11:16:11 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2015, 12:21:50 PM »

Hi Alex, Genesis 2:5 says there was not a man to till the ground, and then v15 God put Adam  into the garden to dress it and to keep it. First of all, we don't know what happened outside the garden during the time between "no man to till the ground" and "God put Adam into the garden." Not that God didn't notice what's going on outside the garden during that time, just that He doesn't tell us much about it in the bible. Secondly, God put Adam into the garden to dress it and to keep it. What kind of job it is to "dress it and to keep it"? There were already food for Adam to eat, and he definitely didn't need to water the garden.

2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food.....
2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

To me, "dress it and keep it" is not the same as "till the ground". It's after God kicked Adam out of the garden that he actually "till the ground". Adam didn't really "till the ground" inside the garden.

3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Like I said, we don't know what happened outside the garden before God made Adam, but the scientists discovered there were already humans who did farm work (again, not that God didn't notice it or He lied, I never said that, He just doesn't tell us much what happened outside the garden). Hunter-gatherers need to constantly be on the move to look for food, when they started to settle down, it indicates they had another way to get food, how else could they get food if it's not farming? They didn't become farmers overnight, there was a transition period. We trust the fossil evidence discovered by scientists to prove that Adam was not the first human, we can't just turn around and said the other evidence they discovered to prove farmers before Adam is wrong simply because the dating methods are not reliable. I understand scientists are not always right, that's why you need to read not just one but plenty of researches from different experts.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 12:32:19 PM by zvezda »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2015, 12:55:43 PM »

 Still on my phone so this will be short (sorry).

I've made my peace and I think you are highly mistaken to think Adam did not till the soil, dress and keep THE GARDEN until AFTER he was kicked OUT OF the garden.

My king james margin says that the word "dress" means to tend or CULTIVATE.

I also think you err greatly to believe that from cahpter 2 until chapter three of genesis where man is banished from the garden, that in all those years (adam lived nearly a thousand) where he was naming all those animals that God brought to him, that adam did no CULTIVAT--till the soil-- of the land. You cant just brush off all that time.

Btw, just because adam didn't NEED to water the plants doesn't mean God didn't teach him to do that and more while he was there. First off its what God's Word said he did and secondly God doesn't NEED man for half the things he uses man to do but He does it anyway for OUR BENEFIT. Adam didn't water the garden, culyivate it and keep it for Gods sake or the gardens sake but FOR HIS OWN BENFIT.

[Removed] You put too much faith in men [removed]. Don't get me wrong, science isn't the devil and certainly has done many great things by God's planning but one area of weakness in science is its attempt to study the past and date those events. Estimates are as good as it gets but they are just that--estimates!

God be with you,
Alex
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 03:06:33 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2015, 01:23:51 PM »

What ground did he till/cultivate/dress? 
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zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2015, 02:11:38 PM »

Good question, Dave. I just don't see the need for Adam to till the garden's ground. It's the ground outside the garden that God told him to till.

Quote
in all those years (adam lived nearly a thousand) where he was naming all those animals that God brought to him, that adam did no CULTIVAT--till the soil-- of the land.

sure, why not? Besides naming the animals, God may have something else for Adam to do if it's not farm work, we just don't know. There were a lot of stuff that God could teach Adam besides farming. Even if Adam did some farm work - till the ground -  in the garden, it still doesn't prove that the humans outside the garden did zero farm work. My main point is - the bible doesn't say anything about what happened outside the garden. See my previous post:

Genesis 2:5 says there was not a man to till the ground, and then v15 God put Adam  into the garden to dress it and to keep it. First of all, we don't know what happened outside the garden during the time between "no man to till the ground" and "God put Adam into the garden." Not that God didn't notice what's going on outside the garden during that time, just that He doesn't tell us much about it in the bible.

Quote
just because adam didn't NEED to water the plants doesn't mean God didn't teach him to do that and more while he was there.

Right, maybe God taught Adam to do it, but that also doesn't mean Adam actually did the farm work. I think there were a lot of other things that God taught Adam but he didn't actually have hand on experience. Your professors teach you how to treat a disease, it doesn't mean you actually are treating the disease.

If you say the scientists discoveries are just estimates, then we can just say we can't be sure if Adam was the first farmer or not. We probably can't even trust the fossil evidence that Adam was not the first human or dinosaurs did exist millions of years ago too, right?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 02:42:11 PM by zvezda »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2015, 03:04:05 PM »

Zevda, it does prove that because it says there was 'NO MAN ( that means no one of the human race) to TILL the soil.' The word man means 'mankind.' If there was no mankind to till the soil, why is that? I believe its because mankind was still hunting and had not yet learned to cultivate, dress, and keep a garden.

When it comes to science, I said 'the study of THE PAST and DATE(ing) those events' was an area of weakness because we estimate things or approximate them. I did not refer to all scientific discoveries as estimates. 

In Christ,
Alex

P.S. I removed my own personal acquaintences with my fields of study and experiences as it comes off a bit proud and boastful. This was not my intent and I am sorry for that. All wordly wisdom is foolishness in the eyes of God. Its all vanity. Dung compared to Christ.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 03:22:46 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2015, 03:43:48 PM »

Zevda, it does prove that because it says there was 'NO MAN ( that means no one of the human race) to TILL the soil.' The word man means 'mankind.' If there was no mankind to till the soil, why is that? I believe its because mankind was still hunting and had not yet learned to cultivate, dress, and keep a garden.
Alex, I was talking about the period of time between "no man to till the ground" and "God put Adam into the garden." We don't know how long it was, maybe those humans were hunters for a few thousands of years, then there was a transition period from hunters to farmers at a later time before Adam. Or maybe they were hunters the whole period of time. We just don't know for sure. The bible doesn't tell us about it, period.

When it comes to science, I said 'the study of THE PAST and DATE(ing) those events' was an area of weakness because we estimate things or approximate them. I did not refer to all scientific discoveries as estimates. 
The 2 fossil examples I gave do involve the study of the past and dating the events.

P.S. I removed my own personal acquaintences with my fields of study and experiences as it comes off a bit proud and boastful. This was not my intent and I am sorry for that. All wordly wisdom is foolishness in the eyes of God. Its all vanity. Dung compared to Christ.
Okay, I was actually scratching my head why you had to emphasize your background - twice. The four years of education doesn't make any of us an expert of the field. I am sure no one (at least not most of us) here to put the worldly wisdom before God's words. We are just trying to see how the science fits in the bible, that's all. It may or may not fit it, when the bible is silent about something, we just can't be too sure what we think the bible implies.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 04:10:53 PM by zvezda »
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Kat

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2015, 06:31:53 PM »


In Gen. 1:26-27 "created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them," this is the first creation of human beings. Not as a herd, Bob, but a single man and woman that God started with, probably many thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Possibly similar to what scientist say, where they gradually spread out across the world.

Then at the time appointed God "formed" Adam (Gen 2:7), this was the beginning of His plan of salvation for mankind, through that lineage.

I know we talked about having 'different ancestors' before, but still, I'm not at all clear on this question... What do you mean when you say "God formed" Adam?  If he was physically (biologically) a unique creature (not a mixing and replication of existing genes via sexual reproduction), then he had no ancestry--no lineage--"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God".

Like the King of Salem.

So two different creations of "man", and two different lineages...

Or, did you mean that "Adam" was 'formed, i.e., born/begotten/descended' from the earlier race?  In which case, what did God actually DO? (A Damascus road experience?)

The former: Two separate Creations, unrelated.  The latter: One Creation; shared ancestry; God intervenes. 

I was thinking you subscribed to the former. (?)


Hi Michael, "Formed" is the word used in Scripture and I believe it meant that God literally "formed" a new creature with Adam, but of the same type as the rest of humanity already there, "one blood" (Acts 17:26). So yes I do see it as the formed one you said, "So two different creations of "man", and two different lineages." But Adam was not like the king of Salem in that he DID have beginning of days and an end to his life.

Alex, already posted where Ray had made comments in an email on this subject, but here it is again.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12719.msg111472.html#msg111472 ---------

RAY'S COMMENT:  Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity.  Is this not the order found in the geologic table?  Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.  In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations.  Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground."  There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers.  God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land. 

The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation.  God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens."  God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them.  This obviously took years.  Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).

It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.

Chapter two does not cover the creation of plant life. That began hundreds of millions of years earlier.  What God is doing in Chapter two is He is planting a garden for the man to cultivate, farm, and harvest. The word "planted" in Gen. 2:8 is from the Hebrew meaning "to sprout." God "sprouted" newly planted trees, etc.  They were mere buds, which would require years to produce fruit to eat. What was Adam expected to eat until these trees matured?
--------------------------------------------------------------

Zvezda, I know that you said we don't know when the statement, "there was no man to till the ground" was speaking of, but if not before Adam then when, before mankind altogether or some other arbitrary time back in history? Why would God make that comment there, doesn't make sense to me. But that statement was made just prior to God speaking of His creating Adam, and then God goes on to say He "put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it." How could this be speaking of anything else? God said there was no man to till and then right there gave the solution for that, He created Adam to tend and keep the garden. 

If you would rather hold to what scientist teach on this, than that is your prerogative. But the Scripture does speak pretty clearly on this and to me Scripture comes before science every time.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 06:36:45 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2015, 07:36:45 PM »

What comment was made?  "There was no man to till the ground". What ground?  Didn't Eden have boundaries?

"Adam" doesn't simply mean humanity.  Individual 'men' were also 'adam' in the Hebrew.   

In the end, it doesn't matter much to me whether Adam was the first farmer.  The first farmer was certainly "adam".

I think we have to have a measure of humility in these matters...it certainly seems to me that God required it of people who lived a lot closer in both time and proximity to these things.  "Where were you when I...?"   
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zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2015, 07:42:44 PM »

Quote
I know that you said we don't know when the statement, "there was no man to till the ground" was speaking of, but if not before Adam then when, before mankind altogether or some other arbitrary time back in history?

Hi Kat,  no, I know it's before Adam. It was when there were no plants and no grass and no rain, of course it was before Adam. When God put Adam in the garden there were already plants and food on the trees.

2: 5 In the day when the Lord God made earth and heaven there were no plants of the field on the earth, and no grass had come up: for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to do work on the land.

I think it's something like this:
(A) no man to till the ground --> (B) there were hunters outside the garden --> (C) a transition from hunters to farmers outside the garden (??) ---> (D) God put Adam into the garden.

What I don't know is how long it was the period of time between "no man to till the ground" and "God put Adam into the garden" (A and D) and what was happening during this time outside the garden. The time when there were no plants no grass no rain (2:5) must be very long before Adam, it didn't last until God put Adam in the garden (2:7) since by the time Adam was in the garden there were plants.

Quote
God said there was no man to till and then right there gave the solution for that, He created Adam to tend and keep the garden. 

Right, but the verse only mentions it's inside the garden, it doesn't say what was happening outside the garden.

If the Scripture does speak pretty clearly to you, that's fine. It doesn't clear to me. When we were in babylon, we were told the science was wrong about Adam not being the first human. Now we found out that science is right all along. I am not saying the science is always right. It's just something I am not sure (yet). I know Ray spoke about this, I wish we had the chance to ask him how about all those reseaches that show farmers before Adam. I know this forum is for discussing Ray's work, since we can't verify it with Ray now, we can leave it at that if you like.

One more thing - Ray did say "It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc." So the first group of humanity (the hunters as you call them) did build cities? If they could build cities, how hard was it for them to grow food? Besides, the fact that they built the cities indicates that they had settled down, it also indicates they had another way to find food besides hunting.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 08:09:44 PM by zvezda »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2015, 10:48:58 PM »

Since God gave me the understanding that the creation account is a parable and not literally true, but contains profound spiritual truths, I do not have a problem with others who understand things differently.

I do not have to do the mental gymnastics to try to fit a parable to a literal understanding or a modern scientific understanding.

Whether you are an atheistic evolutionist or a fundamentalist Christian who believes every word is literally true, you will believe as you are led to believe.

Jesus is the true Savior.  Only He can give true understanding.  Until He frees you, you will be a prisoner of your own thoughts and beliefs.

HINT: Follow the two witnesses and Jesus will give you understanding if you seek it with all your heart.
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Kat

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2015, 12:56:11 AM »


Zvezda, in Genesis 2 it starts out by saying...

Gen 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
v. 2  And on the seventh day God finished His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all his work that He had done.
v. 3  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all His work that He had done in creation.
v. 4  These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

It says there quite specifically that the works of the beginning of creation "were finished," and that would certainly have included plants...

Gen 1:11  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.

When you come down to verse 5 in Genesis 2, I see that is where you are making your assumptions that there are no plants on the earth at that time.

Gen 2:5  before any plant of the field was in the earth H776 and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth H776, and there was no man to till the ground;

Consider that the word "earth" in this verse is the same word uses in the account for the flood that came on the "earth" and we know a better word there was 'land,' as the flood only covered a portion of land that God had predetermined for it to.

So in Genesis 2 where it had just stated that the work of creation was finished, then in verse 5 I believe it is probable that the word did not mean the whole earth and should have been 'land' as the ESV has it.

Gen 2:5  When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,

It seems that God is saying that this portion of "land" in verse 5 was a desolate place with no plants growing there and how did He remedy that...

Gen 2:8  And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east...

This was a special place/garden God was preparing for Adam, there on a certain land that He was going to bring into being.

v. 8  ...and there He put the man whom He had formed.
v. 9  And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food...

This was a very special place, not just because of all the herbs and fruits that were put there, though I can see they were a necessity, because it would taken time for Adam (a new creature) to learn how to tend and grow food... but the main thing that made that place so special was the Tree of Life.

v. 9 ...The tree of life was in the midst of the garden...

God was there with Adam teaching him all that He wanted this man to bring into the world and I don't think it was just farming, but that was certainly part of it. Adam taught Cain to be a farmer, but the curse took that away (Gen 4:11-12), and it was Cain that went out and built the city, so through Adam great changes were coming to the world. Adam taught his son Cain, and he could teach the other people how to farm and obviously how to build, you can see how quickly that knowledge, starting with Adam, was being spread to the world.

Gen 4:17  And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he (Cain) built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2015, 02:00:30 AM »

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It seems that God is saying that this portion of "land" in verse 5 was a desolate place with no plants growing there and how did He remedy that...

Kat, sorry I am not clear what you are trying to say. Does that mean verse 5 is saying before any plant of the field was in this desolate place and before any herb of the field had grown in this desolate place. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on this desolate place, and there was no man to till the ground in this desolate place? And are you saying that this desolate place is the garden of Eden? If it's saying there was no man to till the ground in this desolate place, it sounds like it's implying there were men to till the ground in some other places?

I know the garden was a special place, God was teaching Adam a lot of things, through Adam great changes were coming to the world. Cain went out and built the city and taught other people how to farm and build. I agree with that. We can find out a lot of stuff from the verses regarding Adam and Cain. But still, it doesn't tell us anything about the hunters. The thing remains unknown is that if the hunters outside the garden really did zero farm work and built nothing? Sure, Cain was teaching them how to farm and build, I just think it's also possible that they already had the basic skills to do simple farming and building before Cain came to them. Now Cain was teaching them some more advance methods to do and improve everything. I think it's a possibility that we can't find out for sure from the verses. And I don't think this possibility contradicts God's words.
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Kat

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2015, 10:05:44 AM »

But still, it doesn't tell us anything about the hunters. The thing remains unknown is that if the hunters outside the garden really did zero farm work and built nothing? Sure, Cain was teaching them how to farm and build, I just think it's also possible that they already had the basic skills to do simple farming and building before Cain came to them. Now Cain was teaching them some more advance methods to do and improve everything. I think it's a possibility that we can't find out for sure from the verses. And I don't think this possibility contradicts God's words.

Hi zvezda, you're right, these verses do not gives us all the the information on these things, it is one of "the mystery hidden for ages," that there were other people before Adam and Eve. That is a major thing to understand there were others, so I try not to get hung up on certain points that are not perfectly clear.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2015, 11:32:52 AM »

Hi Kate. Yeah, it's such a great mystery. Like Dave said, it doesn't matter much if Adam was the first farmer or not. I think what matters is that we shouldn't say the bible says this and says that while it's not perfectly clear. The more I study, I more I think we shouldn't conclude that bible shows us Adam was the first farmer. The verse 5 is still a mystery to me. If verse 5 is saying there were no plants no grass no rain no men to till the ground of the whole earth, then it sounds like it's before the very first rain on earth. So when was the first rain on earth? The first rain probably was millions of years ago. Were there any humans at all before the first rain? But if verse 5 is referring to a desolate place like you suggested, then it implies that there were plants and grass and rain and men to till the ground in some other places. Either way, it's not helping us to solve the mystery.

When bible doesn't give us enough information, shouldn't we look at the scientific discoveries? I just think it's not fair that you trust the scientists when they told you they used some dating methods to find out there were humans before Adam and the dinosaurs were millions of years ago, then you turn around and say you don't trust them when they used the same methods to find out there were farmers before Adam.

Anyway, it was a good discussion, thanks everyone!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 11:46:18 AM by zvezda »
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dave

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2015, 01:52:04 PM »

First rain. Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2015, 02:20:46 PM »

First rain. Gen 7:4  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Earth:

From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): -    X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
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