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lareli:
I remember listening to a Dan Carlins Hardcore History podcast.. He mentioned that one of the challenges Constantine had in regards to the Christians merging with mainstream society was how to reconcile the teachings of Christ on non violence with an army of an empire..

Forgive me, I can already tell that my comments, questions, thoughts are going to come out not as clear as I want..

I don't know if this is an accurate thought so if anyone has studied early church history and can offer input, please do.. But here's my thought,

The first followers of Christ forsook violence. The devil tried to stomp out this fire by killing them but still it spread all the more. Kings could not stop Christ's teaching with the threat of violence because 'to die is gain'. So killing them (Christians) didn't work. The devil then, through constantine or whomever, instead brought Christianity under his control by making it the state religion and creating the Just War Doctrine. He couldn't kill it (Christianity) so instead he gained control of it and corrupted it to bring the people (Christians) back into submission to the kingdoms of man.. If Christianity had spread in its pure form then no one would join the armies or obey when the king says 'kill your neighbor'. The power of kings and kingdoms is in their monopoly on the use of violence.. If I kill a man I am a murderer. But if I kill a man while wearing a funny uniform with a certain flag behind me I am not a murderer.

We are born into a world where we kill people who kill people because killing people is bad. That is the hypocrisy of this life that the truth has freed me from. Constantine brought the early church back under this hypocrisy.

I'm not asking if these thoughts are historically accurate in the physical (for example I don't know if just war doctrine was Constantine's or if it came much later) but spiritually speaking is this true?

Why was Christianity persecuted for the 1st 300 years? What threat was it to the kings? Christians are willing to be good little citizens as far as paying taxes, following the laws of the land, giving the king his due honor... The only point of contention I can think of would be that the Christians wouldn't be willing to sin by killing in the army. This would be a grave threat to any kingdom. If Christianity had spread to everyone in the kingdom then no one would fight. A kingdom can't survive if no one is willing to fight wars.

indianabob:
Interesting topic,
I think you made some valid points.
I also think that there was more to it than just soldiering for the king.

There would have been lots of strife in ordinary society. For example if a person stopped lying about the quality of their products, if they told people that tithing was no longer a means to attain to heaven, if they taught that divorce was selfish in most cases and that they were expected to learn to LOVE their enemies who didn't believe the good news etc. etc.
Keep in mind also that the majority of affected persons would not have been part of the called.


People don't like to be told what to do! They only put up with being told what to do if they are afraid of the consequences or if they are motivated by a higher principle.
I think that this is a great topic to explore.

I-bob

Kat:

Hi largeli,

In the beginning Christianity was a new religion rising up from Christ's teachings, but it was very misunderstood. Consider that most people of that time were not educated, they believed erroneous notions and were very superstitious. The Jews were certainly hostile to this new belief system stemming from their own Scripture and the rest of that world were steeped in paganism. Here is a section from a Wikipedia.

Anti-Christian policies in the Roman Empire--

Without agitation from the public, the Roman government had little motivation to persecute local Christians. However, because of the premise of secrecy of their rituals, Christians frequently aroused suspicion among the pagan population accustomed to religion as a public event; beliefs developed that Christians committed flagitia, scelera, and maleficia— "outrageous crimes", "wickedness", and "evil deeds", specifically, cannibalism and incest (referred to as "Thyestian banquets" and "Oedipodean intercourse")— due to their rumored practices of eating the "blood and body" of Christ and referring to each other as "brothers" and "sisters". Christians' refusal to participate in public religion was as problematic to the populace as it was to the elites, and contributed to the general hostility toward Christians. Much of the pagan populace maintained a sense that bad things would happen if the established pagan gods were not respected and worshiped properly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_policies_in_the_Roman_Empire

Another thing is that the false church was developing in and with true believers at first, but I think the true believers were completely lost sight of early on as the church rose to join with the state. That is what we almost always see in the historical accounts, the church, a purely carnal identity.

The Constantine Shift--

Constantine I (reigned 306–37) adopted Christianity as his system of belief after the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312.
v
In 325 the First Council of Nicaea signalled consolidation of Christianity under an orthodoxy endorsed by Constantine
v
In 380 Emperor Theodosius I made Christianity the Roman Empire's official religion (the Edict of Thessalonica) and did enforce the edict. In 392 Theodosius passed legislation prohibiting all pagan cultic worship.
v
Christianity became a religious justification for the exercise of power and a tool in the expansion and maintenance of empire, a Christian empire, also known as Christendom.

Augustine of Hippo, who originally had rejected violence in religious matters, later justified it theologically against those he considered heretics, such as the Donatists, who themselves violently harassed their opponents. Before him, Athanasius believed that violence was justified in weeding out heresies that could damn all future Christians. This continued a line of thought started by Athanasius who felt that any means was justified in repressing the Arian belief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinian_shift

It's not hard to see how carnal men with political agendas and for monetary gain could justify what they did in the name of Christianity. They were no different than any other religion, and they could use the incidence of violence throughout the OT and Christ's own words "do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword" (Mat 10:34) to justify their Holy wars. Don't think the church didn't pick and choose what Scripture they held up to steer their ignorant converts the way they wanted to. It's just the same as it has always been down through the centuries, those in authority convincing the people that their wicked acts were for the good.

Ecc 1:9 What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun."
v. 10 Is there anything of which one may say:See this, it is new? It has already occurred In eons that were before us?
v. 11 There is no remembrance of former generations, And also for those who shall come after us, A remembrance of them shall not continue With those who shall come afterward."
v. 12 I myself, the Assembler, came to be king over Israel in Jerusalem."
v. 13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

lilitalienboi16:
From the link Kat provided also there is this:

Anti-Christian policies from 64-250

Prior to Nero's accusation of arson and subsequent anti-Christian actions in 64, all animosity was apparently limited to intramural Jewish hostility. In the New Testament (Acts 18:2-3), a Jew named Aquila is introduced who, with his wife Priscilla, had recently come from Italy because emperor Claudius "had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome". It is generally agreed that from Nero's reign until Decius's widespread measures in 250, the Anti-Christian policies by Romans was limited to isolated, local incidents.[32] Although it is often claimed that Christians were persecuted for their refusal to worship the emperor, general dislike for Christians likely arose from their refusal to worship the gods or take part in sacrifice, which was expected of those living in the Roman Empire.[32] Although the Jews also refused to partake in these actions, they were tolerated because they followed their own Jewish ceremonial law, and their religion was legitimized by its ancestral nature.[33] On the other hand, they believed Christians, who were believed to take part in strange rituals and nocturnal rites, cultivated a dangerous and superstitious sect.[34]

During this period, Anti-Christian activities were accusatory and not inquisitive.[32] Governors played a larger role in the actions than did Emperors, but Christians were not sought out by governors, and instead accused and prosecuted through a process termed cognitio extra ordinem. No reliable, extant description of a Christian trial exists, but evidence shows that trials and punishments varied greatly, and sentences ranged from acquittal to death.[35]

When it comes to the church, remember the many adomnishments by the apostles and Christ about anti-Christs, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing etc... these things would only grow worse after the departure of the apostles. Evil men would wax worse and with itching ears given to suddection and fairy tales not enduring sound doctrine.

rick:

--- Quote from: largeli on May 14, 2015, 02:55:17 PM ---
Why was Christianity persecuted for the 1st 300 years?

--- End quote ---


I guess Jesus wasn't kidding when He said if they hate me they will hate you. 

What is ironic to me is that the world is persecuting Christians who Christ will one day say to them, I never knew you. Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.

Its all in the plan of God.

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