Saving Private Ryan

[lareli]

Hi extol

I agree with you and I totally understand and agree with your point and I understand the spiritual lessons of all the gentile nations being slaughtered. It doesn't take away from the fact that literal infants were literally ripped to pieces at the command of God. Unless you believe all these stories were just myths. I haven't heard anyone ever claim that. These were real babies and God commanded real humans to slaughter each and every one.

Do you believe these stories are myths? Or do you believe God commanded babies to be slaughtered, blood, guts, infants screaming in pain... Their mothers screaming in pain, throwing up at the sight of it, only to be ripped to pieces themselves?

I would love to hear someone say these are myths or stories and not to be taken literally just like I've heard the creation story does not involve a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil. But if these stories are real and literal than I don't think we are learning the whole spiritual lesson by saying 'ya well God is sovereign' in the case of slaughtered babies while letting our hearts bleed over what happens in modern day warfare.

[Extol]

Howdy,

I do believe these things really happened, as Paul said in his letter to the Corinthian church. The important thing for me in reading the Old Testament is the parable aspect---how it points to Christ, and foreshadows us being made into the image of God. I believe these things happened, but I stress the parable part because a) it's more important, and b) there are many people who do not believe in the God of the Bible because of the Old Testament violence, or more generally, the existence of evil. For unbelievers and those on the fence, the "problem of evil" is the most powerful argument against God. We know, of course, that God creates evil and uses it often for His purposes, so it is not even an argument.

Please don't misunderstand me though---this is very sad stuff, whether it is 1940s warfare or 2000 B.C. warfare. It's easier to see the "spiritual" in things that happened thousands of years ago. I admit it would be more difficult to say "It's all of God" if we saw the Amalekites being killed on TV today. But God is sovereign now just as He was then, and we have to have faith that He knows what He is doing. There is an appointed time for men to die, and that has always been the case. It is foolish to think otherwise. Christians blame Adam, and skeptics blame God, but the Bible never said there wasn't supposed to be death. It is a major part of our experience of evil, and that's always been the plan. Sadly (from our perspective), dying is not as easy as going to sleep when you're 100 and not waking up; many millions of people have suffered horrible deaths.

But as sad as all of this is, we have something that very few people have--hope for a future resurrection, not just for believers, but for all people. Even those Amalekite babies are going to come back. Instead of learning war as they would have in ancient Amalek, they will learn righteousness.

[Kat]

Hi extol

I agree with you and I totally understand and agree with your point and I understand the spiritual lessons of all the gentile nations being slaughtered. It doesn't take away from the fact that literal infants were literally ripped to pieces at the command of God. Unless you believe all these stories were just myths. I haven't heard anyone ever claim that. These were real babies and God commanded real humans to slaughter each and every one.

Do you believe these stories are myths? Or do you believe God commanded babies to be slaughtered, blood, guts, infants screaming in pain... Their mothers screaming in pain, throwing up at the sight of it, only to be ripped to pieces themselves?

I would love to hear someone say these are myths or stories and not to be taken literally just like I've heard the creation story does not involve a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil. But if these stories are real and literal than I don't think we are learning the whole spiritual lesson by saying 'ya well God is sovereign' in the case of slaughtered babies while letting our hearts bleed over what happens in modern day warfare.

Hi largeli,
Now you have focused on God having commanded babies should be killed in the OT, along with the rest of the pagan population, when the Israelite army sweep through to rid the land of the pagans, this is true. Do you not realize that babies have been casualties of pretty much every war? The innocent die everyday, but I guess the idea that God is shown to have actually commanded it is what is disturbing... maybe because babies are really harmless.

In those cases in the OT where God condemned those pagan nations to ALL were to be completely removed/killed from the land that the Israelites were to occupy. It's like what Jesse was saying, this is an allegory, and to save any part of them (even a single baby) is to harbor some part of the paganism and to rebel against what God had commanded, for them to completely clean the land (Eze 39).

Can't you see a connection in this (first the physical) and what God, and the elect, will do in the next age... God will bring the chosen (sheep) into His kingdom, but the rest (goats) will face "eonian destruction" (destroying the carnal flesh).

2Th 1:7  and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
v. 8  in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 9  These shall be punished with everlasting (eonian) destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

But just like you are concentrating on the physical/literal of the OT, so the church does the same with the NT meaning of destruction. But yes there was the death of the innocent babies in those OT Israelite wars, just as there is in all wars. Death is a absolute part of this age, but the most important thing is that all those babies had the chance to live and they will be given a better life to live out in the next age, where all thing will be put right by God.

Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God  is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Heb 8:10  "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Jer 31:33  But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Jer 24:7  Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.

Eze 37:23  They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Zec 8:8  I will bring them back, And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people And I will be their God, In truth and righteousness.'

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[repottinger]

I think you did a great job of differentiating between the physical, Old Covenant aspects and the spiritual, New Covenant application of the Old Testament warfare, Extol and Kat. I can only add a couple of verses to those you already mentioned which help us to focus on when God will be all in all rather than this present veil of tears; I hope they might be helpful to you along with the other verses, largeli.
Romans 8:18-21 (AKJV):
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
II Corinthians 4:17-18 (AKJV):
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[Extol]

Largeli,

Something else I would like to add....the evil in the world is often hard for us to accept because we are projecting our human thoughts and emotions onto God. We say, "If I was God, I would end the suffering, or not have suffering at all." We are thinking--with a human brain--what we would do if we were God. As if we know better than God! Anyone who thinks like that is a fool. It's like thinking "I don't know why goldfish just sit in the pond all day. If I was a goldfish and could breathe underwater, I would want to swim across the ocean!" We are thinking with our human brain what we'd like to do, ignoring the fact that goldfish don't live in salt water, and can't swim nearly that far. Or it's like a bird thinking "Why do humans just stay on the ground? I have these two little wings, and they have FOUR long limbs. If I had limbs like that, I would fly to the moon and back!" The bird is thinking with its bird brain and projecting it onto the human, ignoring the fact that a human cannot do what a bird does, and thinks and behaves very differently. These silly examples are only a very small glimpse of the foolishness of thinking how we would do things if we were God. The reality is, God is far bigger than all the humans and all the goldfish and all the birds in the world.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts...." Isa. 55:8-9

[lilitalienboi16]

Agreed Jesse!  Along that same line of thought;

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Remember Job!

[lareli]

Before I comment further let me just say that I appreciate having a forum where we can discuss such things.. I doubt I'd be able to have this discussion in the halls of church.

I agree with all that I've read on this thread.

Question.. Is killing babies evil. Isis kills babies, Herod ordered babies killed, as did Pharaoh and we would all agree that what they did was evil. God commanded babies to be killed and we all agree that it wasn't evil for God to command this... But was it evil for the Israelites to commit the act of killing babies? I believe the answer is yes... But I don't know.

It wasn't evil for God to command this because God will also raise them all in their time.. Pharaoh, Herod, etc. have no power to raise from the dead. So is it correct to say that just as the devil is a club in Gods hand and God will judge the devil.. So too was Israel a club in Gods hand and God will judge those who did the slaughtering even though it was what God commanded?

[Kat]

Hi largeli,

Here is the 6th commandment.

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not kill (H7523). (KJV)

Exo 20:13 You shall not murder (H7523). (CLV)

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not commit murder (H7523). (Rotherham)

Exo 20:13  `Thou dost not murder (H7523). (YLT)

H7523 râtsach - A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

There is a very big difference in the word where the KJV uses "kill" and what we see in the literal translations "murder." The OT contains numerous prohibitions against 'unlawful' killing - murder, but it DOES allows for 'justified' killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense.

1Sam 15:2  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sam 15:3  Now go and smite (H5221) Amalek, and utterly destroy (H2763) all that they have, and spare them not; but slay (H4191) both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a@@.

H5221 nâkâh - A primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literally or figuratively): -  beat, cast forth, clap, give [wounds], X go forward, X indeed, kill, make [slaughter], murderer, punish, slaughter, slay (-er, -ing), smite (-r, -ing), strike, be stricken, (give) stripes, X surely, wound.

H2763 châram - A primitive root; to seclude; specifically (by a ban) to devote to religious uses (especially destruction); physically and reflexively to be blunt as to the nose: - make accursed, consecrate, (utterly) destroy, devote, forfeit, have a flat nose, utterly (slay, make away).

H4191 mooth - A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: -  X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

As you can see these are different words used in those places where the OT God commands the Israelites to kill/destroy all the inhabitants of the land (this is war) to cleanse it of paganism, than what is the 6th commandments "you shall not murder."

I might add that was the OT laws and now the elect are to obey the spirit of the law that Christ taught.

Mat 5:20  For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
v. 21  "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
v. 22  But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

Kat can you recommend an online source to easily look up the Hebrew/Greek words that our bibles are translated from? A easy to use online concordance.. Or an app for iPhone perhaps?

[Kat]

largeli, I use E-Sword for my studies, I have the King James Version Bible with Strong's numbers of the Hebrew and Greek. Then it has the Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek for the definitions, but I also use Thayer's with Greek definitions and the Brown-Driver-Briggs' (BDB) for Hebrew definitions. There is also the King James concordance that gives all places the Hebrew or Greek words can be found in Scripture. All this is available from E-Sword http://www.e-sword.net/index.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

A few other things also worth considering while 'thinking on these'.

He also sent nations against the children of Israel.  They too suffered evils.

WE struggle NOT against flesh and blood. Eph_6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

And the 'weapons' of OUR warfare are not the weapons of their warfare. 2Co 10:3-4  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
   
   

[John from Kentucky]

The blue letter bible resource is an easy to use online scriptural reference.  Type in a verse and when it comes up, you can click on the verse and Hebrew and Greek references will appear along with the Strong' s reference numbers.  At the top is a drop down list where you can change the bible translation version.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm


However, the most important thing is not the Hebrew and Greek.  Many language scholars are very learned but cannot understand the Scriptures.

Only God through His Spirit can give understanding.  Through His Spirit marvelous treasures are revealed.

In reference to the two witnesses needed for correct understanding, but also to the Spirit in general, always remember this paramount truth:

Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD Almighty. Zechariah 4:6

[octoberose]

Question.. Is killing babies evil. Isis kills babies, Herod ordered babies killed, as did Pharaoh and we would all agree that what they did was evil. God commanded babies to be killed and we all agree that it wasn't evil for God to command this... But was it evil for the Israelites to commit the act of killing babies? I believe the answer is yes... But I don't know.

Can I just add that God will redeem those very babies He condemned? Someone  on this sight said once, in reference to "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", that the 'hate' of God is worth more than all the love of man. Christ died for the innocent that His Father had killed. Kind of makes your head spin.
And let's not forget Amos 3," Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it? "God calls evil what it is even when He is the One doing it.  Evil is not necessarily sin.

[indianabob]

Octoberose,

One of the ways I try to cope with God destroying humans is to keep in mind that God knows what would have happened to each person the next day if they had not been killed. So when God destroys a baby by having Israelites stab it with a sword there is very little difference (for the baby) than there would be if the child was suffocated by its mother.
The real difference is the emotion experienced by the one wielding the sword or by the parents of the baby who have to watch. The baby probably dies in less than a minute and would have suffered more if left to starve.
Plus why is the pain of dying of a baby any worse than the pain of dying of an adult? Certainly the adult is more aware of what is coming, while the baby is mostly ignorant of the threat; unless the act is prolonged as in torture to increase the pain.

Sure, we feel a stronger emotion when we hear of the event or see it done, but dying of suffocation in a hospital bed with your lungs filling up is much more dreadful especially when you cannot do anything about it. A dying patient can suffer for hours and days struggling just to take the next breath. Having their heart pierced through with a sword would be merciful.

I know that this is a difficult topic and it is easy to resent what has to be done in the name of justice. Such as the whole adult community having to cast stones at a criminal that has been found guilty of a sin worthy of death. Especially when the parents of the guilty person have to cast the first stones at their own flesh and blood child.

It is necessary and important and a valuable lesson to have to learn how precious each life is to God. That is why, I think, that we are repulsed by the very thought of taking a human life with our own hands. And yet we send our teen age boys and girls into the military to learn how to kill efficiently and without overmuch remorse. Otherwise they would become the victim and the enemy of our nation would make slaves of us all.

That last comment is not to support killing at all, we believers are supposed to be operating under the NEW and better covenant in which even hating another human is sin. However, as a nation we have always taught our youth to kill the enemies of the family that we call a Nation. Strange that we send our teens out to do our dirty work.

I think that is why so many of our soldiers come back into civilian life with P.T.S.D. They just cannot come to terms with what they have been ordered to do in the name of patriotism.

offered in love, Indiana bob

[lilitalienboi16]

Question.. Is killing babies evil. Isis kills babies, Herod ordered babies killed, as did Pharaoh and we would all agree that what they did was evil. God commanded babies to be killed and we all agree that it wasn't evil for God to command this... But was it evil for the Israelites to commit the act of killing babies? I believe the answer is yes... But I don't know.

Can I just add that God will redeem those very babies He condemned? Someone  on this sight said once, in reference to "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", that the 'hate' of God is worth more than all the love of man. Christ died for the innocent that His Father had killed. Kind of makes your head spin.
And let's not forget Amos 3," Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it? "God calls evil what it is even when He is the One doing it.  Evil is not necessarily sin.

That's a great addition to this thread. I had to go back and corrext one of my previous posts in which I stated "God doesn't do evil." That word "do" is just to ambigious. He creates evil and brings it upon peoples and nations in various forms so I don't think I was correct in saying that. Furthermore, you're right also to point out that evil isn't sin and God takes full responsibility for what is going on in creation. After all, He did die for OUR sins, not His own.
I once emailed ray about this very thing. Oh to find it again!

When I think of evil and how God uses it, I like to remember Joseph. How did his life and the life of everyone end and what did he have to say looking back on the evil that God brought upon him through the deeds of his brothers?

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Ah yes, there it is. Isnt that how all the evil in this creation is ultimately used? The end is good and the many people is creation itself!

An experience of evil has Elohim given unto the sons of men to humble them thereby it.

God bless,
Alex

[lareli]

Wow..

Evil isnt sin.. That right there is it I believe. That is meat to chew on... And savor. What a revelation.

Thanks for the e-sword and blue letter bible links too.

[John from Kentucky]

God does not do evil.  He created evil.  But evil is not His way.

Satan is the primary agent of evil.  That is why God created him.  To be the destroyer.

In the Book of Job, we learn it was Satan who used a wind storm to kill Job's 10 children.  Which is why Satan is called the prince of the power of the air.  Satan is the god of this world.  Weather events that kill come from Satan, as do wars and killing and sickness and disease.  It was Satan that caused Job's sickness.

God sets the bounds of evil and Satan, or things would be much, much worse if Satan were left to himself.

A sovereign God is responsible for all and will in the end destroy evil and bring about total good.

Jesus was a sin offering and made an atonement for what mankind has suffered by dying the death by torture.  Jesus was Antipas, the faithful witness, Who came on behalf of the Father.  He will save all.

As for the Amalekites, they were not wiped out by the Israelites.  It was an Amalekite that killed King Saul.  If they had been wiped out, then how could one kill the King?  Am I going too fast for anyone?

Unfortunately for the Israelites, they did not destroy the Amalekites and the other sinful peoples in the promised land.

These people led the Israelites to follow their pagan practices, which included the sacrifice of babies.
The Amalekites were to have their babies killed because they killed babies.  Just like the Egyptians had their first born killed because they killed the babies of others.  Justice.  God deals with people at the level they understand and how they do to others.  This understanding comes from thinking about God's ways as guided by the Spirit.

By not following God's commands, the Israelites brought down the judgment of God upon themselves for the evil practices they learned from the other people in the land.

But be it known, the Great God is not evil and does not do evil, but God turns evil to good....in the appointed times.

[lilitalienboi16]

God does not do evil.  He created evil.  But evil is not His way.

Satan is the primary agent of evil.  That is why God created him.  To be the destroyer.

In the Book of Job, we learn it was Satan who used a wind storm to kill Job's 10 children.  Which is why Satan is called the prince of the power of the air.  Satan is the god of this world.  Weather events that kill come from Satan, as do wars and killing and sickness and disease.  It was Satan that caused Job's sickness.

God sets the bounds of evil and Satan, or things would be much, much worse if Satan were left to himself.

A sovereign God is responsible for all and will in the end destroy evil and bring about total good.

Jesus was a sin offering and made an atonement for what mankind has suffered by dying the death by torture.  Jesus was Antipas, the faithful witness, Who came on behalf of the Father.  He will save all.

As for the Amalekites, they were not wiped out by the Israelites.  It was an Amalekite that killed King Saul.  If they had been wiped out, then how could one kill the King?  Am I going too fast for anyone?

Unfortunately for the Israelites, they did not destroy the Amalekites and the other sinful peoples in the promised land.

These people led the Israelites to follow their pagan practices, which included the sacrifice of babies.
The Amalekites were to have their babies killed because they killed babies.  Just like the Egyptians had their first born killed because they killed the babies of others.  Justice.  God deals with people at the level they understand and how they do to others.  This understanding comes from thinking about God's ways as guided by the Spirit.

By not following God's commands, the Israelites brought down the judgment of God upon themselves for the evil practices they learned from the other people in the land.

But be it known, the Great God is not evil and does not do evil, but God turns evil to good....in the appointed times.

Very nicely put John. Thank you. I think that wraps it all up pretty well!

[lilitalienboi16]

Found the email where Ray say's evil isn't sin

------------------------------------------- http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13677.msg120247.html#msg120247

Dear Alex:  I am afraid you are confusing "evil" with "sin."  They are certainly not one and the same thing.
I can tell from your wording that you feel that evil is a bad thing when you say:  "I know this sounds probably
blasphemous to even think that Evil went through Christ..."  As I have stated in my Lake of Fire series, evil
has no moral bias.  There is nothing sinful about evil in and by itself.  Evil (ra in the Hebrew) means to crush
or break into pieces.  And God uses evil for many good purposes.  Evil only becomes a sin when men use
it for wrong purposes.  In the same way, God created "darkness."  There is nothing inherently evil or sinful
about darkness, even though it may not be a pleasant thing. Hope his helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray

-------------------------------------------

God bless,
Alex

[DEJI]

permit me to contribute my token here, as to the specific question of whether the Isrealites were guilty of murder by killing the babies. I don't think God will hold the murder of the babies against the Isrealites because they didn't kill the babies out of a pure thirst for blood but did kill the babies on the God's express orders.