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Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
Gina:
Hi Everybody,
This is one of the most important questions that comes up periodically on the forum and the members are not always in agreement. So, in hopes of clearing up the question, here is an excerpt from an email question and answer from 2007:
Source: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2909.0.html
Dear Quentin: I will try to COMMENT in your email.............
Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
COMMENT: I really dislike questions like this. It's kinda like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
What do you MEAN by "cease?" One day Jesus WAS God and the next day Jesus WAS.......what? A different person? A different being? The Bible tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness" [similarity,not exactness] of sinful flesh, but didn't sin, and was emptied of His internal powers so that He would be subject to death, and to live a life in the flesh that we are to emulate, etc. But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God." Why do you ask that? Do you think Jesus "CEASED" to be God. Jesus did all that He did in the flesh through and by the power of His Father. But, having His Father by His side, He could do anything He wanted to: walk on water, heal the sick, conquor the world, raise the dead.
[emphasis added]
Ray says, "But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God [when He became incarnate]. Why would you ask that?" I love that.
Anyway, I hope that helps someone here.
:)
Kat:
Hi Gina, here's a few more from the FAQ http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15921.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg24692#msg24692 -----------
Dear Elizabeth:
I'm afraid this is one of those questions that it would first take ten pages to explain what we mean
by "God." What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc., etc. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US" (Matt. 1:23). Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case? Did He pray to HIMSELF?
On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING." Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges." Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9). Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
I'm sorry, but nearly 99% of all questions asked of me in emails are entirely too long for an email. I could easily spend a week or two researching and writing on this very question you ask. The Bible is not nearly as "simple" and Christians claim that it is. It will probably take me 60 pages to explain Matt. 5:22 and Matt. 10:28 in my upcoming Installment on Hell Part D. The more difficult Scriptures and concepts (as the one you just asked me), are tied to every other Scripture and concept in the entirety of the Bible. People have no concept of absolutely how PRECISE one must be in his words and explanations of these things, or it will contradict some verse somewhere. Maybe God has given me an ability to make difficult things understandable and seemingly "simple." Nothing, however, is SIMPLE in the Scriptures. If it were, not every major doctrine of Christendom would be UNscriptural. Hope you understand.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ----
Dear Christopher:
Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."
[1] "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).
[2] "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]" (Rev. 1:08).
[3] "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).
[4] "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
[5] "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).
[6] "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).
One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God." Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2909.0.html ----------
First, John 1:1 (I checked this verse in three translations including the KJ, and each one read word for word the same) says that the word was God. Does this mean Jesus was God?
COMMENT: Yes, and Jesus still is God.
Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
COMMENT: I really dislike questions like this. It's kinda like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
What do you MEAN by "cease?" One day Jesus WAS God and the next day Jesus WAS.......what? A different person? A different being? The Bible tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness" [similarity,not exactness] of
sinful flesh, but didn't sin, and was emptied of His internal powers so that He would be subject to death, and to
live a life in the flesh that we are to emulate, etc. But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God."
Why do you ask that? Do you think Jesus "CEASED" to be God. Jesus did all that He did in the flesh through and by the power of His Father. But, having His Father by His side, He could do anything He wanted to: walk on water, heal the sick, conquor the world, raise the dead.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6907.0.html ---------
Dear Mike:
Jesus Christ HAS a God and Father: God the Father does NOT have a God. (II Cor. 11:31).
God greater than Jesus (John 14:28).
Jesus will always be subjected to His Father, while His Father will never be subject to Jesus, so the Father is BOSS! (ICor. 15:27-28).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6484.0.html -------------
Dear Scott:
Who said that "Jesus isn't equal with God?" Jesus is in the very IMAGE OF GOD:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I Cor. 4:4--"...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God..."
Heb 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person.."
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Jesus, however, is NOT His Own Father, and will always be in subjection to His Father:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [His Father] that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html --------------
Dear Christopher:
"God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.
If One is:
THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)
POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)
HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)
Then that One IS GOD! Jesus filfills all three of those
statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why
Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5928.0.html -------
Dear David: In the Scriptures (I don't refer to all "Bibles" as the Word of God, but rather the Scriptures), "The Word of God" can mean the actual spoken words from God (Matt. 4:4); the inspired word of God coming to the prophets (Ezek. 25:3); the written Word of God (Jer. 30:2), the Word of God in ANY form (Heb. 4:12); and the Personification of God's Word (Jesus) (John 1:1-14).
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ------------------------------------
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.
Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
v
v
[Ray Replies]
Dear Brett:
I actually answer this in my paper on the trinity. Yet I get asked it continually. The reason is, I believe, that most are not willing to accept the answer I give FROM THE SCRIPTURES.
I am asked: "Is Jesus GOD or isn't He GOD?"
When I answer: "Yes, Jesus IS GOD," they are not satisfied with that answer they want to know: "Well then, as there is only ONE GOD, and if Jesus IS GOD, then Jesus must be THAT ONE GOD INCLUDING THE FATHER, and so by deduction, JESUS IS THE FATHER.
I'm not saying you, Bret, but there is no end to the times I get this posed to me. And yes, there are those religions that firmly believe that JESUS CHRIS IS GOD THE FATHER.
When the Pharisees accused Jesus of blaspheming because He said He was "The SON of God," Jesus reminded them that their own scriptures state that, "YE ARE GODS."
"I have said, YE ARE GODS; and all of you are CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH" (Psalm 82:6).
"For WE [Believers] ARE members of His [Jesus] body, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they TWO shall be ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH" (Eph. 5:31-32).
"That they ALL may be ONE [Who?--ALL. How many?--ONE] as you Father are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be ONE in US... And the glory which You gave to Me I have given them, that they may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE" (John 17:21-22).
This IS the Scripture that Jesus quoted. They didn't accept what Jesus said, and people will not accept what I say.
I'll try once more:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH" (Gen. 2:24).
How many people?--TWO. How many flesh?--ONE.
There the Scriptural answer!
"...that they may be ONE, even as WE [Jesus AND His Father] ARE O-N- E"!!!
HOW many Persons? Jesus & Father--TWO. HOW many GODS?--O-N-E G-O-D!!!
As a "husband and wife" ARE ONE, and "Jesus and His Church," ARE ONE, so also "Jesus and His Father," ARE ONE.
I don't what more I can say or how many times I can say it. I hope this helps.
God be with you,
Ray
WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? - 2007 Nashville Conference
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
Gina:
Yes, that's where I found what I posted.
Is Jesus "man with us"? No, Jesus is [was and will be] "GOD with us." I love that too. Thanks for helping out, Kat.
octoberose:
Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus? The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also. However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: octoberose on May 31, 2015, 04:50:39 PM ---Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus? The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also. However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.
--- End quote ---
Hi Rose,
Can you please explain where it says in the bible that Jesus or anyone inherited adam's sin? I see that death passed to all for all have sinned but I don't see where sin passed to all. Christ became our passover because He was the spotless lamb without blemish. He had no sin in Him and died for all sin for all time. Here are the verses in consideration that I can think of:
Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many [NOT 'all'] were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin [OFFERING] for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Gal 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Hebrew 2: 8-10
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrew 2:14-18
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Here is the verse you reference in Jesus being refered to as a man;
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Here is Mary refered to as the mother of Jesus;
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Now as for Jesus being the son of Mary, I don't see a problem with that. It says that He was born of her in Matthew. Isn't one the son of the woman that gives birth to him?
Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
God bless,
Alex
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