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Author Topic: Three statements Christ made got me thinking, what in the world is going on.  (Read 3936 times)

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Rick

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Hi Gina,

I never indicated that Christ was going to destroy His own temple, but Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it in three days, I know Christ was referring to His crucifixion and resurrection when He made that statement.

According to scripture Christ did make that statement, destroy this temple and I shall raise it in three days, Christ said He was going to raise it ( referring to Himself ) but the Father raised Christ, Christ Jesus did not raise Himself .

My issue was discovering Christ said He was going to raise Himself but did not and this cannot be denied and so I was trying to reconcile that Christ said He was going to do something and did not according to His statement.

I understand those who came forward and testified falsely against Him and twisted His words did so that they might find and accusation against Him, more than likely they for the most part were trying to please the high priest as the religious leaders hated Christ and they were hoping to find favor with the religious leaders.


The hatred for Christ was so bad that the Jews said let His blood be on us and on our children , Jesus was whipped badly, punched in the face, spit on and a crown of thorns placed on His head then hit down and stripped naked then crucified and while on the cross He was mocked, ridiculed, not even a murder was treated so badly.

And all these things we did to the Son of God for we are all guilty of such cruelty that sent the prince of life to His death cutting His life short from the earth and the most profound statement Christ made was ( forgive them Father for they know not what they do ) that statement being made while He was being crucified and that statement still holds true to this present day for we really don’t know what we do.

So I shall conclude by saying thank you Jesus for what you did for all of humanity including me too. Thank you.   :)  :)  :)   
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 12:16:09 AM by Rick »
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John from Kentucky

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I was reading about another subject and accidentally (yeah, right  :D) came upon this, where Ray discusses the point if Jesus raised Himself or if the Father did.

Thought it might be helpful to this thread.

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#concordant


Anyway, don't be to sophomoric about condemning me for purposely trying to deceive people.
That is slanderous, Dwayne, and you don't have leg to stand on when you lower yourself to such tactics.

I do not have the time nor the inclination to try and answer all of your hundreds and hundreds of Scriptural references. However, Let me just comment on your first unscriptural argument and see if you are willing to own up to your own unscriptural scholarship.

You say that Jesus claimed that He would raise HIMSELF from the dead, is that correct?   Did Jesus actually say that He, Himself, would be the One Who would raise Himself after He was dead? Did he actually say that? Where? You can assume that that is what is "meant" by "I will raise it up." You can assume that that is what is "meant" by "I have the POWER..." And what pray tell was Jesus basing that statement on? His own 'power' to raise the dead while He Himself IS DEAD? No, read it:

    "THIS PRECEPT I GOT FROM MY FATHER."

Jesus' FATHER told Him what would be done on the third day.

You say that this word 'xousia' means power or authority WHEN REFERRING TO GOD. Not so. Also when referring to carnal men:

    "Then saith Pilate unto Him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have POWER [Gk: exousia] to crucify thee, and have POWER [Gk: exousia] to release thee?" (John 19:10).

Not only in the Scriptures themselves, but in Strong's definition of this word 'exousia' it matters not one iota whether it is speaking of God's power or some human power delegated by God. Am I missing something here, Dwayne?

Furthermore, This word 'exousia' is translated "right" several times in the KING JAMES. Examples:

    "We have an altar, whereof they have no RIGHT [Gk: exousia] to eat which serve the tabernacle" (Heb. 13:10).

    "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT [Gk: exousia] to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" (Rev. 22:14).

Now then: Is there a statement in the Bible that says, "Jesus Christ raised Himself from the dead?" Is there such a statement in the Bible? In other words, DID JESUS RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD?  Did He? Where does it say so, Wayne? Where? Because if you can find a place that says that, then I have Scriptures that CONTRADICT that, and we both know (at least I know, and I think you know, because you are fond of using the word 'contradict' and 'contradiction' in your criticism) that the Scriptures DON'T CONTRADICT. Are there Scriptures in the Bible, Dwayne, that tell us EXACTLY AND SPECIFICALLY WHO IT WAS THAT RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD? Yes, there are. Does any ONE OF THEM say that it was Jesus Who raised HIMSELF from the dead? Which one might that be? THERE ARE NONE.

However, Dwayne, there ARE Scripture that do tell us exactly WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD. The question is will YOU believe these Scriptures when I show them to you? OF COURSE YOU WON'T. I would bet dollars to donuts you won't.

Here are a couple:

    "Ye men of Israel, hear these words [and you too, Dwayne], Jesus of Nazareth... Whom GOD HAS RAISED UP having loosed the pains OF DEATH" (Acts 2:24).

    "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit OF GOD dwell in you... But if the Spirit OF HIM [GOD THE FATHER] that RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD dwell in you, He [God the Father] that RAISED UP CHRIST FROM THE DEAD shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you... For as many as are led by the SPIRIT OF GOD [GOD THE FATHER], they are the sons of God [God the Father, not sons of the Son]" (Rom. 8:9, 11, & 14).

    "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and GOD THE   FATHER, WHO RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD" (Gal. 1:1).

Now then, do we have a Scripture that actually says that "Jesus Christ raised Himself up from the dead?" NO. NO, we don't. Do we have numerous Scriptures that state that "God the Father raised up Jesus from the dead?"   Yes. Yes, we do. Will you now acknowledge that the Scriptures plainly tell us numerous that that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead and that there is not one Scripture that states the Jesus Christ raised Himself from the dead, and that both cannot be true, seeing that the Scriptures cannot and do not contradict?

Will you now acknowledge that your argument is WRONG?  NO, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Why don't you prove me wrong, Dwayne?

And have a nice day.

Ray
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Gina

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Joh 2:19  Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days."


Joh 12:49  That is because what I taught was not from myself. The Father who sent me told me what to say and what to teach.


So, I know when Christ died He was actually dead, and we know that the dead have no perception, so Christ said He would raise this temple in three days, how is that possible ?

In Joh 12: 49 we see that it Was the Father who gave Christ His words, what to say and what to teach.


 Joh 14:8  Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."

Joh 14:9  Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'?

I need to go back to Ray’s 207 conference on who and what is Jesus and who is His Father again but what I’m wondering now is, is it the Father we know and not Jesus ? What I mean is it seems that I know the name of Jesus but everything Jesus did was the Father doing it all.


It must be as Christ said, to know Christ is to know the Father as if they are one in the same. I guess it’s back to the drawing board for me, again.  :-\

Hi Rick,

It was definitely God the Father that raised up Christ. Peter affirms this several times as well as Paul.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.



Hi Alex,

That’s my point, God raised Jesus from the grave, it was God the Father who said through Jesus destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jesus could not of resurrected Himself being dead but God the Father could indeed raise Jesus having life in Himself to do so but it was Jesus who said He Himself would raise this temple in three days referring to His self.

Jesus said it and I’m not going to go anywhere else with that just out of a healthy fear of God . I’m not sure how to reconcile Jesus stating He was going to raise Himself and God the Father actually raising Christ or if I am to reconcile it I would conclude Jesus and God the Father are one in the same with the exception of perhaps having different personality but the word of God is clear in that there is but only one God.

So if there is only one God and Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it and we know Jesus was raised from the dead and God the Father raised Christ then one would conclude Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus and so that is how I see Jesus raising Himself as He said He would.

Hi Rick,

I don't think I agree with you and here is why.

Jesus and God the Father are not the same though. Jesus is a being while God the Father is not. Jesus has a beginning, while God the Father does not. Jesus has a God while God the Father does not.



Hi Alex,

No argument from me, it doesn’t get any clearer than how you stated it. I see it was nothing more than me taking the words of Jesus literally when He said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

Perhaps it’s a mistranslation for all I know, maybe Jesus never said that, you know Ray had pointed stuff like that out in his writing.

Thanks Alex, much appreciated .  :)

Hi, Rick

He did say that because what will you do with these verses:

39 And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,…


…60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two [FALSE WITNESSES] came forward,
61 and said, "This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'"
62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"… 


Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.'" 
59 Not even in this respect was their testimony consistent.…

Mark 15:29
Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, "So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days,

[Comment:  It's much easier to twist Jesus' words than to admit they themselves could be wrong.  Jesus never said that HE, Himself would do the destroying of his own temple.  Remember, these were FALSE witnesses and they went around TWISTING His Words for the sake of mocking Him because they hated His guts for shining a Light on their stupid, arrogant, evil ways.  So they were thrilled when he was hanging on that cross dying and gasping for breath.  And started twisting His words.  They heard Him say, Destroy this temple and I will raise it up, but they twisted it so that others would think He said something else.  Satan was there and he is here right now too.  You could pray and ask God to show you the truth, Rick, instead of assuming something that isn't true.  That is another option.  And a pretty smart one if I say so myself. :) ]

Hi, Rick
Hi Gina,

I never indicated that Christ was going to destroy His own temple, but Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it in three days, I know Christ was referring to His crucifixion and resurrection when He made that statement.

According to scripture Christ did make that statement, destroy this temple and I shall raise it in three days, Christ said He was going to raise it ( referring to Himself ) but the Father raised Christ, Christ Jesus did not raise Himself .

My issue was discovering Christ said He was going to raise Himself but did not and this cannot be denied and so I was trying to reconcile that Christ said He was going to do something and did not according to His statement.

I understand those who came forward and testified falsely against Him and twisted His words did so that they might find and accusation against Him, more than likely they for the most part were trying to please the high priest as the religious leaders hated Christ and they were hoping to find favor with the religious leaders.


The hatred for Christ was so bad that the Jews said let His blood be on us and on our children , Jesus was whipped badly, punched in the face, spit on and a crown of thorns placed on His head then hit down and stripped naked then crucified and while on the cross He was mocked, ridiculed, not even a murder was treated so badly.

And all these things we did to the Son of God for we are all guilty of such cruelty that sent the prince of life to His death cutting His life short from the earth and the most profound statement Christ made was ( forgive them Father for they know not what they do ) that statement being made while He was being crucified and that statement still holds true to this present day for we really don’t know what we do.

So I shall conclude by saying thank you Jesus for what you did for all of humanity including me too. Thank you.   :)  :)  :)   

Who's we?  I wasn't there.  I didn't do all that to Him or crucify anyone.  Have you?  Neither did His mother or His disciples.  While they "all forsook Him," none of His chosen disciples so much as called out for His death or crucifixion, Rick.  So I don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Not even Judas - don't you remember he repented of betraying an "innocent man" then went and threw himself over a cliff?  Even Judas didn't cry out for Him to be crucified.   

I agree that we are all guilty of all (because we have the potential of doing those things).  But I did not crucify my Lord or whip Him or anyone else for that matter. 

There was a time when I was deceived by the church into thinking that I had, but Ray cleared that matter up for me once and for all.

And I am well aware that you never mentioned one word about Jesus destroying His own temple.  But since you thought He was capable of raising His own dead body up from the dead, I had to go to that verse too because it tied everything together so perfectly. 

I'm glad you feel better.  Yes, God is very good to you. 
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Rick

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Hi John,


I didn’t find in your reply anything specific that I was hoping for although I did pick up a hint from Ray of what had me perplex.

( Now then: Is there a statement in the Bible that says, "Jesus Christ raised Himself from the dead?" Is there such a statement in the Bible? In other words, DID JESUS RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD?  Did He? Where does it say so )

That statement Ray made is very helpful to me, as I can now reconsider my position with a clearer direction. So I thank you John for just happening across that e mail from Ray.
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santgem

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Hi again Santgem,

I think you should take a look once more at Ray's study of who Jesus and the Father are.  Ray points out very clearly that Jesus is Jehova in the old testatement. So I don't agree with you that God the Father is YHWH/Jehovah. Jehova/Elohim is a reference to the Father but that is not the same as Jehova/YHWH.

No one knew the Father existed in the old testatement. Perhaps only a few hints aside from the fact that Elohim expresses a duality--Let US make man in OUR image.

More specifically, ray covers this exact passage of Hebrews and he shows that God the Father spoke to our fathers not because He is "Jehova" but because everything is out of Him and through Jesus Christ, His spokesman/Logos/Word/Very Image.

--------------------------------------------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

One of the most powerful things we have to learn in the Scripture is that no man has ever seen God or heard His voice. You have just got to believe that. It says that over and over, so you got to believe it. If you don’t, well then you will think Jehovah is God the Father and you will have all these crazy things, that aren’t true. It’s a major truth. We have to find out who the God of the Bible is. "No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)." Is that clear!

...
...

Jesus Christ is a thing.  He is the Son of God, the very image of Him. Well if He is something, where did He come from? Out of GOD! Where did everything else come from?  Through Christ! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah what? Jehovah/Elohim! Who is His Father? His Father, is the Father, Elohim! Fair enough.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with you completely that you have two God's if the God of the old testatement has a God. By inspiration of God, both Psalm's and Hebrews show this to be true as well as many other new testatement witnesses.

God bless,
Alex


Hello Alex,
Greetings!

Alex, maybe you should have to pay attention to all the words, you confused yourself, see why?

 
So I don't agree with you that God the Father is YHWH/Jehovah
So you do not believe that the name of God the Father  is also Jehovah, then i would strongly recommend to you to read again Ray's article for you to be reminded.


No one knew the Father existed in the old testament
very well said, God the Father was introduced by Jesus in the New Testament

More specifically, ray covers this exact passage of Hebrews and he shows that God the Father spoke to our fathers not because He is "Jehova" but because everything is out of Him and through Jesus Christ, His spokesman/Logos/Word/Very Image.
You just mentioned lately that God has a God in the Old testament, meaning you are contradicting yourself.


One of the most powerful things we have to learn in the Scripture is that no man has ever seen God or heard His voice. You have just got to believe that. It says that over and over, so you got to believe it. If you don’t, well then you will think Jehovah is God the Father and you will have all these crazy things, that aren’t true. It’s a major truth. We have to find out who the God of the Bible is. "No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)." Is that clear!
In the OT God was seen and heard by many, but God the Father was seen and heard by no one.



I disagree with you completely that you have two God's if the God of the old testatement has a God. By inspiration of God, both Psalm's and Hebrews show this to be true as well as many other new testatement witnesses.
When Jesus is in the form of God there is only one God, but when Jesus had a flesh then that time he had a God but did not cease to be God. Jesus will be man and God forever as i said, so in short if you only widen your thinking you could comprehend that Jesus will have a God because he did not cease to be a Man and to be God........It's that fairly clear?
Pay attention to the Words.
 
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lilitalienboi16

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I am well aware of the name of Jesus' Father but that does not change the fact that any reference in the old testament to Jehova/Yahweh is a reference to Jesus Christ. Any reference to Jehova/Elohim is one which includes the Father too because He is Elohim. While everything is out of the Father and through Christ, it does not give us a right to throw that distinction out the window. Its like saying that "Immortality" means we live forever so then "Immortality" means "Eternal life!" WRONG! It does NOT mean that and neither does Jehova/Yahweh (without the Elohim) mean the Father is being spoken of.

I did not mention that God has a God in the old testatement, the SCRIPTURES do. Here again incase you've forgotten them already.

Psalm 45:5-7
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 1:6-10
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

I must admit I am a bit astounded that you will ignore scripture and Ray's words on this matter. I can understand disagreeing with Ray, he is a man, but to disagree with scripture too? I simply can't go down that road with you. The above are very strong witnesses against your teaching and you have done nothing to address them. I have examined it carefully.

Lastly, you should provide your scriptural references to Jesus being a Man forever. I know that we know Him no longer after the flesh so I have a hard time seeing Him as a man. He has the "form" of a man but that is not the same thing as saying He is a man. Man is flesh and blood and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Not that I think what ray says will matter but I'll leave it here for anyone elses lurking through this discussion so at least they know where ray stand's on Jesus having a God discussion. This is taken from the same 07 conference I linked in my prior posts.

------------------------------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

1Tim 6:15  “which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
v. 16  who only hath immortality…”

I always thought that was speaking about Christ. But I’m thinking now, no, He’s talking about God. God only has immortality;

v. 16 “… dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see…”

Isn’t this talking about God, the Father? Well what does it matter?   
Well here’s the thing. Where does it say if somebody is able to have the title God, that you have to be eternal for that? I don’t know of any. 

There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die. But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality. Where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
 
But you always want to think about these things. Someone will say, ‘well that’s talking about His human flesh, you know human.’ No, I think these things are dual. These things pertain to Him ‘before’ His human flesh. You know He talked about the glories and stuff He had before (John 17:5). Did He have a glory as a human? He prayed for the glory He ‘once’ had, so did He not have any glory then? Well, He did have glory. We read that in flesh and blood He did have glory.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

He didn’t have the glory that He had though. I mean it was much more, it was much grander. He didn’t have all that glory, because He diminished Himself. We are coming to that very powerful scripture.

[Someone's comment: Scripture says, “My Father is greater than I.”] Some say, ‘well yea He says that, because He was still in the flesh.’ They say, 'well yea if He’s in the flesh.' But then we have something that I discovered, I never heard anyone else say it. Jesus had a God! It’s right there. After His resurrection, He had a God (John 20:17).

John 20:17  Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

So you think the Father had a God? Come on. Somebody will say, ‘well how could you be God and you have a God, you are lesser than God, so it can’t be.’ Yes you can. 

We have to learn what it means to take the title God, it’s more of a title, like somebody’s last name. God’s name is not God. God is a title. God is the same title that the heathers use. In the Hebrew it’s EL - Elohim, El is singular, God, Elohim is plural. What did the pagans call their god? elohim, they called them el and elohim. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice that ray thinks those things which pertain to Christ pertain to both when He was in the flesh and as God. I agree with him. Notice ray, and myself, also believe Jesus when He says "My God" refering to the Father. Jesus has a God.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Gina

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Hello Alex,
Greetings!

I fully understand your explanation......but;

Look at your verse Psalm 45:5-7, examine it very carefully.
When God tells that to a God,  God perceived that that God is associating with the people.

God did not have a God when It is the only God (Old Testament).

in sundry times, It is God the Father who is YHWH/Jehovah (old testament) when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world (Jesus in his flesh) New Testament...


God did not tell in the Old Testament that he has God literally or else you will have two Gods, and that is very clear....


now think about this....

When Jesus died his soul died also but his Spirit is alive. Jesus soul died when his body is dead.
God the Father and Jesus have the same Spirit.
Jesus Spirit gives life....Agree or disagree?




Santgem,

Christ was BIRTHED into existence by the Father long before he was conceived physically in Mary's womb. 



You said
Quote
God did not tell in the Old Testament that he has God literally or else you will have two Gods, and that is very clear

What does this mean:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.…



Quote


 Where Did God Get Knowledge ?

I asked the question; Did God have a master plan when He created the universe? Did He have something in mind? Where did that come from? It must have been something He always had in mind. 

It’s like He said: ‘I always wanted to build the universe.’ 

And you say:  Really for how long?

‘Oh I always dreamt that way.’

Yea?

‘Yea.’ 

Do you think you will ever do it?

‘Ahh, maybe someday.’

[laugher]  Seriously, follow me.

Well is it a good plan.

‘Oh yea, it’s a good plan.’

Well why don’t you do it now?

‘Well okay maybe I will do it now.’

Did God always have this plan? You see we get this thing that God has always been everything that He is. God says He doesn’t change. It doesn‘t say that He says He has all knowledge. Oh yea, well where did He get it?  I don’t doubt that God has all knowledge, but where did He get it? ‘Well He always had it.’ Do you have chapter and verse on that? 

[Comment: Is, was and always will be] Jesus said that. But He was a created being. He came out from the Father. But now that He did, “He is,” He’s alive today, resurrected from the dead. “He was,” He was the one who created everything, He was the one that died for the sins of man and “He always will be.” That’s true. But even if you were to say that of the Father, that He is and was and always will be, there is still no statement that He always was what He is.

Does God learn? You say, ‘Ray it is sacrilege to talk like that.’ Well I’m sorry, but I think about this and I’ve talked to God about stuff like this and I don’t believe that I’m sacrilege at all. I honor God, I worship God. 

Coming in here to learn this stuff this is worship. Waving your hands and falling over backwards and foaming at the mouth, that’s not worship. Learning the truths of God and saying, ‘I believe that and I can see that, this is wise, it is wisdom and this will help me be the kind of person that God wants.’ That is worship. You believe and you obey God, that’s worship.
 

                                    Does God Learn ?

I’ve ask these questions all my life. I didn’t have an answer for them. But I ask the questions. Does God learn?  I know He knows everything, but does He know everything because He learned it all? 

Well I though, there’s a lot of stuff I’m not going to know. But then I also believed that there is so much more in the Bible than we have ever seen. I mean it’s in there  There is so much in there, you just have to pay attention to the words.

You know I look at Scripture and I read them over 30... 50... 180 times and then sometimes something jumps out at me.  I’m relentless, I’m like a bulldog and I beg God.  I say, ’God I don’t know this, show me. Show me! I know it’s in there, show me!’ 

Anyway, is there any indication in the Bible that God, before the creation, before there was a universe or even a Jesus Christ, is there any indication that God either learned something or accomplished something that didn’t exist with Him, prior to that? Some might say, ‘Ray I think you are on dangerous ground. I think you are talking heresy and this verges on sacrilegion.’ 

I ask the question... I had a debate with Jeff Priddy, I friend of mine, has some screwy ideas, but he’s a nice guy. I was talking about emotions and he said, ‘Ray God does not have emotions.’ I said, well what is love and how come God is love, if God does not have emotion. He said, ‘No, that’s just for human terms and He is so way above and beyond that and everything else.’ 

But then over time I got to thinking about that and I said, wait a minute in Galatians 5 we are given a list of the fruits of God Spirit. One of them in the King James is longsuffering.  Okay longsuffering, what does that mean? Patience. What is that made up of? Is it made up as an archaic English term? 

Longsuffering - to suffer long. One of the fruits of God Spirit is to suffer long. How can it be a fruit of God’s Spirit if He doesn’t even possess it Himself? 

I told somebody that I was going to ask a question at this conference; Did God ever do an honest days work in His life? I mean a really hard day’s work. Did He? Well you would say, ‘well He created the universe, that was a little work.’ No, all these Christians theologies say He just spoke it, let there be stars… let there be suns and moons… let there be an earth… let there this and that… just let there be... let it be... let it be... and there you are.  Wow, I’m tried I think I’ll rest a day.

Did God ever do an honest hard days work in His life? You say, ‘Ray it doesn’t apply, you can’t apply what we do to what He does.’ How can you say it doesn’t apply? Jesus Christ worked and He suffered, He had long suffering and He had patience and He was the very image of His Father! The expressed stamped image of His Father! And we are to be in the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 08). In the very image of God and the very image of Jesus Christ, our elder brother.

So how could Jesus have all this love and all this patience and all this mercy and He said everything He got came from His Father? Every thought He thought, every word He spoke, every deed He done came from His Father. How can you say the Father doesn’t have patience? 

Patience is doing without something you want, but you can’t have it now. You have to exercise patience. You might even have to have longsuffering, you might have to suffer long. That is a fruit of God’s Spirit.

I could never believe in my heart of hearts that God would expect of us, things that He would not move His little finger to do Himself.

Jesus Christ berated the Pharisees. He said you load these heavy heavy burdens on people, very difficult for them to do what you tell them they need to do to be holy and righteous and good. Yet you would not move them with one of your fingers.

Mat 23:4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Is He accusing the Pharisees of something His own Father is guilty of? Are you following me? Is Jesus Christ condemning and berating the Pharisees for something His own Father is guilty of… that He lays heavy burdens on us and He wouldn’t lift them with one of His fingers, but we have to? We have to suffer through sixty or eighty years of sometimes horrible misery and disease and heartache and everything. What does God know about that? Nothing? I don’t think so. I don’t buy that nonsense anymore. I think that God has gone through a lot for us.


                                   The Principal Thing

I said that Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.”  “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” I couldn’t understand that, so I looked it up in Strong’s and I got all the words for wisdom and I looked them up and it didn’t make sense. But then I did find Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so. When you look and Strong’s definition there is one word at the end of the definition.

“In the beginning” H7225  rê'shîyth
The first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

He says firstfruit, beginning and then at the end it says the “principal thing.” The principal thing, what is that? The principal thing…  and Onkelos translates “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth.” I just couldn’t get it and finally it hit me. Some place the Bible must tell us what the “principal thing” is.

Proverbs 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing;

WISDOM

There it is. “Wisdom is the principal thing.” Now go over to chapter 8, it talks about wisdom personified.

Pro 8:1  Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

v. 6  Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

v. 12  I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

v. 13  The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

v. 14  Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

v. 15  By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

v. 16  By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

v. 17  I (wisdom) love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

v. 18  Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

v. 19  My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

v. 20  I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

v. 22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

v. 23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.

Wisdom is speaking in the first person, “I” wisdom. “I” was with the Lord in the beginning before there ever was any works. “I” was set up… ever the earth was.” Before there was an earth.

(COMMENT:  "Before Abraham was, I AM.")

Source:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.msg73653.html#msg73653

Santgem, Tell me something:  Why is "wisdom" speaking in the first person?
Logged

Gina

  • Guest

Whose Son is the Christ?

Matthew 22

43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,
44'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'?
45"If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"


Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did GOD ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?


Where is Christ seated?  AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, HIS FATHER?

Remember:  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.…

So Whose mouth did "the WORD" go out of?


Isaiah 45 (this is the Old Testament)

22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness  And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame
.…

And hopefully that settles that, Santgem.

Have a good day.
Logged

santgem

  • Guest

I keep on telling you that you have to pay attention to all the words but you deliberately ignoring my suggestion. Anyways i am not surprised because even there are scriptures that back up to what i say, if like me babes who will tell you would not believe either.

There is a big difference between merely a Man and Man at the same time God. I did not say that Jesus will be a Man forever but i do say that Jesus will be a Man and God forever......I told you once again to carefully  pay attention to all the words.


Reference that Jesus will be Man and at the same time God......Still more but it is too many to mention.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Luke 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 7:56  and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God
Rev. 1:13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest
Rev. 14:14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.



Psalm 45:5-7
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



When this God has a God in Psalm..........
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God anointed that God above thy fellows....that is very clear....and who is his fellows? another fellows God, oh come on!



When God in the Old Testament is the only God.

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Logged

santgem

  • Guest

Whose Son is the Christ?

Matthew 22

43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,
44'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'?
45"If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"


Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did GOD ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?


Where is Christ seated?  AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, HIS FATHER?

Remember:  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.…

So Whose mouth did "the WORD" go out of?


Isaiah 45 (this is the Old Testament)

22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness  And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame
.…

And hopefully that settles that, Santgem.

Have a good day.

Hi Gina,
Greetings!

Did i disagree of all what you said above, Where?
Shalom
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santgem

  • Guest





Santgem,

Christ was BIRTHED into existence by the Father long before he was conceived physically in Mary's womb.


Gina, Did i disagree of what had you said, Where?



You said
Quote
God did not tell in the Old Testament that he has God literally or else you will have two Gods, and that is very clear

What does this mean:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.…

Adding or removing God words is very dangerous......He was in the beginning with God that only is written, it is not say there that God has a God, is there?





(COMMENT:  "Before Abraham was, I AM.")

Source:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.msg73653.html#msg73653

Santgem, Tell me something:  Why is "wisdom" speaking in the first person?
[/quote]
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Gina

  • Guest

Santgem,

And you keep asking about God having a God....  What's your beef with that Santgem? You think I'm dangerous?  The way I see this is, you're bored and you're using up people's time to pass the time.  May God open your blind eyes and paddle your backside for coming here for the express purpose of wasting time and arguing and going round and round with words.  You are exactly the kind of person that Christ berated.  You can't see the forest for the trees.  I obviously don't have the answer you're seeking, so why don't you just leave me alone and stop asking questions?  Answer:  Because you're bored and you want someone to argue with.

Bye!
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Gina

  • Guest

Avoiding Divisions -

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.


(To me, men like this are a shining example of what it truly means to take the Lord's Name (and all that it represents) in vain. They really want nothing whatsoever to do with God, but they will, like the sleaziest lawyer you have ever met in your life, pile the words on you and get you so mixed up that you practically suffocate yourself trying to unravel all of their twisted garbage.  It's pure vanity, goes nowhere, and ends in death.)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 06:22:28 PM by Gina »
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lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870

I keep on telling you that you have to pay attention to all the words but you deliberately ignoring my suggestion. Anyways i am not surprised because even there are scriptures that back up to what i say, if like me babes who will tell you would not believe either.

There is a big difference between merely a Man and Man at the same time God. I did not say that Jesus will be a Man forever but i do say that Jesus will be a Man and God forever......I told you once again to carefully  pay attention to all the words.


Reference that Jesus will be Man and at the same time God......Still more but it is too many to mention.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Luke 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 7:56  and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God
Rev. 1:13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest
Rev. 14:14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.



Psalm 45:5-7
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



When this God has a God in Psalm..........
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God anointed that God above thy fellows....that is very clear....and who is his fellows? another fellows God, oh come on!



When God in the Old Testament is the only God.

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Hi Santa,

It is clear now to me that you don't agree with the scriptures nor ray. You want to throw out the new testatement references to Christ having a God, even His own words AFTER He was resurrected (not in the flesh but with a spiritual body) to maintain your own unscriptural idea. Mind you these come from Paul who was inspired by God and had far greater understanding of the old testatement than perhaps any of us here.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Here is Peter re-stating the same thing:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Lastly from our Lord and Saviour Himself:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

You can redicule the perspective I gave you all you want on Psalms but it is verified in another witness under the inspiration of God's spirit. Here it is again:

Hebrews 1:6-10
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he [The Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [the 'SON' in previous verse-- The 'O God'], even thy God [the 'He saith'--The Father], hath anointed thee ["a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom"] with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

There is no contradiction with this and what Isaiah said. I'm pretty sure the apostles would have been the first to point it out, especially paul and the author of hebrews. There is only one God. Jesus having a God does not make two Gods, I can't make you see that.

You're missusing scripture. I hope you're not saying Luke 24:39 is proof that Jesus is not spirit but flesh and blood man? Is that what Acts 2:31 proves too?

Paul assures us Christ was raised with a spiritual body. Do you think that maybe in trying to allay the fears of the apostles that Jesus appeared with his human body, to feel His wounds, to certify that this was really Him back from the dead? Do you think that maybe as SPIRIT, Jesus can take on any form He likes, including appearing as a man? How about a burning bush? Did you ever think that Acts 2:31 was talking about the fact that He was raised after a day and a half of being in the grave and so His body had not yet started to rot, to see corruption? The argument of which was being used to prove that the verse could not possibly be a reference to david for those skeptics because david is still dead and his body rotting.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45King James Version (KJV)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Jesus is raised a life giving spirit and not as a man with flesh and blood. He has a glorified spiritual body.

John 3:4-8
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus is invisible and powerful like the wind--He is spirit and not flesh and blood man. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in the kingdom. Flesh and blood cannot inherit.

As for Jesus being a "man and God forever." When you say that, you are still saying He is a man forever too, nevermind the God part. Regardless, there is no scripture that says He is a man forever or "Man and God" forever. Even the verses you quoted do not say that. They use the word "likeness" which means similarity to but not actually the same. Some of your verses reference His existance as a man, His experience in the flesh, and others His LIKENESS to being a man AFTER His resurrection.

Your timothy verse and hebrews go hand in hand. This is talking about the mediation between God and men and not Jesus' eternal condition after His life in the flesh.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 2:14-18
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren ['THE MAN' of Tim 2:5], that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus will forever have His experience in the flesh as a man to allow Him to be a Faithful High Priest who can relate to our experiences and make intercession for us on our behalf. Timothy 2:5 has nothing to do with Jesus' current glorified position but rather His ability as a mediator between man and God through that experience of having lived as a man.

Until you can acknowledge that Jesus Christ (the God of the old testament) has a God, this discussion is over. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. No verse is at all becoming its own interpretation. I have interepreted Psalms with Hebrews which are direct matches. I have given you numerous witnesses. Yet you persist.

God be with you,
Alex
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

santgem

  • Guest

Santgem,

And you keep asking about God having a God....  What's your beef with that Santgem? You think I'm dangerous?  The way I see this is, you're bored and you're using up people's time to pass the time.  May God open your blind eyes and paddle your backside for coming here for the express purpose of wasting time and arguing and going round and round with words.  You are exactly the kind of person that Christ berated.  You can't see the forest for the trees.  I obviously don't have the answer you're seeking, so why don't you just leave me alone and stop asking questions?  Answer:  Because you're bored and you want someone to argue with.

Bye!

Gina,

so sorry to correct you, but you are the one meddling with us, Alex and me.....
I do not argue with you.  I am not saying you are dangerous, i am saying that adding and subtracting the words of God is dangerous not you.


Are you hurt because i said that Jesus will be man and God forever?

A friendly correction from babes here, you deduce in the other forum regarding Jesus that he will not be a man but God only. Right? That is why i am proving here that Jesus is Man and God at the same time even after his death.

I am not bored, if you can not stand because what i responded is correct be patient, and if i twisted words you should either proved it or else if you can not, do not put  words in my mouth that i did not say.

Thank you and may the God Lord shine His face on you always!
Logged

santgem

  • Guest

I keep on telling you that you have to pay attention to all the words but you deliberately ignoring my suggestion. Anyways i am not surprised because even there are scriptures that back up to what i say, if like me babes who will tell you would not believe either.

There is a big difference between merely a Man and Man at the same time God. I did not say that Jesus will be a Man forever but i do say that Jesus will be a Man and God forever......I told you once again to carefully  pay attention to all the words.


Reference that Jesus will be Man and at the same time God......Still more but it is too many to mention.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Luke 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 7:56  and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God
Rev. 1:13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest
Rev. 14:14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.



Psalm 45:5-7
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



When this God has a God in Psalm..........
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God anointed that God above thy fellows....that is very clear....and who is his fellows? another fellows God, oh come on!



When God in the Old Testament is the only God.

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Hi Santa,

It is clear now to me that you don't agree with the scriptures nor ray. You want to throw out the new testatement references to Christ having a God, even His own words AFTER He was resurrected (not in the flesh but with a spiritual body) to maintain your own unscriptural idea. Mind you these come from Paul who was inspired by God and had far greater understanding of the old testatement than perhaps any of us here.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Here is Peter re-stating the same thing:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Lastly from our Lord and Saviour Himself:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

You can redicule the perspective I gave you all you want on Psalms but it is verified in another witness under the inspiration of God's spirit. Here it is again:

Hebrews 1:6-10
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he [The Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [the 'SON' in previous verse-- The 'O God'], even thy God [the 'He saith'--The Father], hath anointed thee ["a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom"] with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

There is no contradiction with this and what Isaiah said. I'm pretty sure the apostles would have been the first to point it out, especially paul and the author of hebrews. There is only one God. Jesus having a God does not make two Gods, I can't make you see that.

You're missusing scripture. I hope you're not saying Luke 24:39 is proof that Jesus is not spirit but flesh and blood man? Is that what Acts 2:31 proves too?

Paul assures us Christ was raised with a spiritual body. Do you think that maybe in trying to allay the fears of the apostles that Jesus appeared with his human body, to feel His wounds, to certify that this was really Him back from the dead? Do you think that maybe as SPIRIT, Jesus can take on any form He likes, including appearing as a man? How about a burning bush? Did you ever think that Acts 2:31 was talking about the fact that He was raised after a day and a half of being in the grave and so His body had not yet started to rot, to see corruption? The argument of which was being used to prove that the verse could not possibly be a reference to david for those skeptics because david is still dead and his body rotting.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45King James Version (KJV)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Jesus is raised a life giving spirit and not as a man with flesh and blood. He has a glorified spiritual body.

John 3:4-8
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus is invisible and powerful like the wind--He is spirit and not flesh and blood man. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in the kingdom. Flesh and blood cannot inherit.

As for Jesus being a "man and God forever." When you say that, you are still saying He is a man forever too, nevermind the God part. Regardless, there is no scripture that says He is a man forever or "Man and God" forever. Even the verses you quoted do not say that. They use the word "likeness" which means similarity to but not actually the same. Some of your verses reference His existance as a man, His experience in the flesh, and others His LIKENESS to being a man AFTER His resurrection.

Your timothy verse and hebrews go hand in hand. This is talking about the mediation between God and men and not Jesus' eternal condition after His life in the flesh.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 2:14-18
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren ['THE MAN' of Tim 2:5], that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus will forever have His experience in the flesh as a man to allow Him to be a Faithful High Priest who can relate to our experiences and make intercession for us on our behalf. Timothy 2:5 has nothing to do with Jesus' current glorified position but rather His ability as a mediator between man and God through that experience of having lived as a man.

Until you can acknowledge that Jesus Christ (the God of the old testament) has a God, this discussion is over. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. No verse is at all becoming its own interpretation. I have interepreted Psalms with Hebrews which are direct matches. I have given you numerous witnesses. Yet you persist.

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, Greetings!

If that is your believe be it.

You can not prove to me that i contradict Scriptures or Ray's teaching......

I just presented to you the three witnesses at the time Jesus in the flesh having God. One Scripture is debatable but the two witnesses are sure hit.

I also presented many Scriptures that there is only one God in the OT but you refuse to accept it. We are just like rolling coaster round and round and round.

The ultimate drama is when that Jehovah/YHWH is having a flesh, and i mean literally having a flesh.
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